Not judging before the time

[RandyPNW]

You should thank your lucky stars! God has not, in history, been about the business of bringing Eternal Judgment, or Eternal Sentencing. There will be a day for that, for reviewing your life to see where you need to be placed for all eternity.

I'm not here to say God is going to put people He hates in an eternal torture chamber. But I do think how close to God or how far away from God and His blessings you will be for all eternity will one day be determined at a heavenly court. And the farther away from God you will be the more you will be remorseful.

That being said, God's acts of judgment are always taking place in one form or another. The acts of nature are signs that this is not a place to invest in for all eternity--all is falling apart in a sense. Nothing will last the way it is.

So there is also the principle of sowing and reaping, which is the principle of judgment God is now using. Don't think that this cannot catch up to you if you're not careful. "Kiss the Son lest he be angry." Psalm 2.

What that means is you should show respect for God and for religion. If you disrespect God's People, He will disrespect you. An eye for an eye.

What I see the Leftists here in the US doing is disrespectful to both Christians and Jews. I'm not saying that these groups are beyond criticism--I'm sure some criticism is deserved.

But the kind of rhetoric and display I'm seeing being aimed at God's People is despicable, and will eventually be visited by God. He is patient but He is true to His word. He will bring consequences to those who think there is no judgment from God.

 

[Clare73]

You should thank your lucky stars! God has not, in history, been about the business of bringing Eternal Judgment, or Eternal Sentencing. There will be a day for that, for reviewing your life to see where you need to be placed for all eternity.
I'm not here to say God is going to put people He hates in an eternal torture chamber. But I do think how close to God or how far away from God and His blessings you will be for all eternity will one day be determined at a heavenly court. And the farther away from God you will be the more you will be remorseful.
That being said, God's acts of judgment are always taking place in one form or another. The acts of nature are signs that this is not a place to invest in for all eternity--all is falling apart in a sense. Nothing will last the way it is.
So there is also the principle of sowing and reaping, which is the principle of judgment God is now using. Don't think that this cannot catch up to you if you're not careful. "Kiss the Son lest he be angry." Psalm 2.
What that means is you should show respect for God and for religion. If you disrespect God's People, He will disrespect you. An eye for an eye.
What I see the Leftists here in the US doing is disrespectful to both Christians and Jews. I'm not saying that these groups are beyond criticism--I'm sure some criticism is deserved.

But the kind of rhetoric and display I'm seeing being aimed at God's People is despicable, and will eventually be visited by God. He is patient but He is true to His word. He will bring consequences to those who think there is no judgment from God.

Only the born again who have faith in Jesus Christ are God's people.

 

[RandyPNW]

Only the born again who have faith in Jesus Christ are God's people.

Well, I have a problem with that. The call and gift of God are irrevocable. God called Israel, and now He has called many European, American, African, and other nations. They do not lose their calling simply because leaven leavens the whole lump, and nations get diluted in their Christianity and commit apostasy from it.

If Israel had no hope of recovery I would say that they are no longer God's People. In fact, God calls them "Not my People" when they, as a people, stand against Christianity.

However, the day is coming when Christ will separate the true sheep from the rebellious goats in Israel. Then Israel will be God's "Chosen Nation" again.

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying Israel is more special than other nations. I'm just saying that they've been called, they've played a role for God in history, and they've paid a price for playing that role. Who they are as "God's People" will not be taken away from them, in my opinion.

But I suppose we'll see in the future?

 

[Jimmy It]

Well, I have a problem with that. The call and gift of God are irrevocable. God called Israel, and now He has called many European, American, African, and other nations. They do not lose their calling simply because leaven leavens the whole lump, and nations get diluted in their Christianity and commit apostasy from it.

If Israel had no hope of recovery I would say that they are no longer God's People. In fact, God calls them "Not my People" when they, as a people, stand against Christianity.

However, the day is coming when Christ will separate the true sheep from the rebellious goats in Israel. Then Israel will be God's "Chosen Nation" again.

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying Israel is more special than other nations. I'm just saying that they've been called, they've played a role for God in history, and they've paid a price for playing that role. Who they are as "God's People" will not be taken away from them, in my opinion.

But I suppose we'll see in the future?

Romans, 2:29 A man is not a Jew because he is one outwardly, nor is circumcision only outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise does not come from men, but from God.
John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

 

[RandyPNW]

Perhaps both the Living and the Dead (condemned) ?

Well, I meant that we'll see if Israel returns to being God's People in the future? That's how I interpret the prophecy of the Valley of Dry Bones.

 

[RandyPNW]

Romans, 2:29 A man is not a Jew because he is one outwardly, nor is circumcision only outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise does not come from men, but from God.

I've answered this many times. Paul is not saying that Israeli ethnicity changes with the introduction of Christianity. Paul is saying something that was true in the OT as it is in the NT. Ethnicity played an important role under the Law, but even then the "written code" did not use ethnicity to determine one's righteousness. If Israel was to separate from pagans it was so as to become righteous--not just to remain ethnically pure!

You completely misapply this verse to indicate that ethnicity has ceased to exist in the New Testament. Paul is just saying that ethnicity, as important as it may have been under the Law, is not the determining factor with respect to faith and obedience. And in the NT neither is ethnicity the determining factor as to whether one belongs in the ranks of the righteous. Other nations besides Israel can become God-fearing.

John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

Yes, it isn't ethnicity alone that enables one under the Law to be obedient to God. It requires inward commitment to God's Word always, and not just attention to a single law separating Israel from pagans. The idea of being Born Again was as true under the Law, where ethnicity was important, as it is in the NT, where separation from pagan nations still matters. We are still to be separated from pagan practices in the NT era, just as Israel was told to be separate from pagan nations in the OT.

Therefore, being Reborn has nothing to do with extinguishing Israel's ethnicity or any other nation's ethnicity. Rather, the doctrine of Rebirth identifies the reason for God's separation between a religious ethnicity and a pagan ethnicity--it isn't a matter of ethnic partiality, but rather a matter of religious purity and a matter of true fidelity to the principle of separation.

Israel can fall under paganism just as the pagan nations do they were to separate from. So it isn't a matter of ceasing to be Jewish, but rather, a matter of properly separating from pagan nations as a religious nation. And of course it is a matter of becoming Born Again spiritually, so as to properly follow God's Word, and not just external ceremonies.

 

[Jimmy It]

I've answered this many times. Paul is not saying that Israeli ethnicity changes with the introduction of Christianity. Paul is saying something that was true in the OT as it is in the NT. Ethnicity played an important role under the Law, but even then the "written code" did not use ethnicity to determine one's righteousness. If Israel was to separate from pagans it was so as to become righteous--not just to remain ethnically pure!

You completely misapply this verse to indicate that ethnicity has ceased to exist in the New Testament. Paul is just saying that ethnicity, as important as it may have been under the Law, is not the determining factor with respect to faith and obedience. And in the NT neither is ethnicity the determining factor as to whether one belongs in the ranks of the righteous. Other nations besides Israel can become God-fearing.


Yes, it isn't ethnicity alone that enables one under the Law to be obedient to God. It requires inward commitment to God's Word always, and not just attention to a single law separating Israel from pagans. The idea of being Born Again was as true under the Law, where ethnicity was important, as it is in the NT, where separation from pagan nations still matters. We are still to be separated from pagan practices in the NT era, just as Israel was told to be separate from pagan nations in the OT.

Therefore, being Reborn has nothing to do with extinguishing Israel's ethnicity or any other nation's ethnicity. Rather, the doctrine of Rebirth identifies the reason for God's separation between a religious ethnicity and a pagan ethnicity--it isn't a matter of ethnic partiality, but rather a matter of religious purity and a matter of true fidelity to the principle of separation.

Israel can fall under paganism just as the pagan nations do they were to separate from. So it isn't a matter of ceasing to be Jewish, but rather, a matter of properly separating from pagan nations as a religious nation. And of course it is a matter of becoming Born Again spiritually, so as to properly follow God's Word, and not just external ceremonies.

Your statements are true other than "You missed..." That may have been a response in defense of truth.
I've never met a true believer who did not believe they weren't saved by faith and Gods grace. No believer I know thinks ethnicity saves nor disqualifies an individual. You injected race into the conversation.
The new testament did not extinguish the old, it fulfilled it. The jews are jews because of Abrahams faith and work. Arabs are also Abrahams offspring. You know all this. We are children of the One God,
God Bless

 

[RandyPNW]

Your statements are true other than "You missed..." That may have been a response in defense of truth.
I've never met a true believer who did not believe they weren't saved by faith and Gods grace. No believer I know thinks ethnicity saves nor disqualifies an individual. You injected race into the conversation.
The new testament did not extinguish the old, it fulfilled it. The jews are jews because of Abrahams faith and work. Arabs are also Abrahams offspring. You know all this. We are children of the One God,
God Bless

The verses you quoted are used just as I suggested, to prove that in the NT Paul disbanded the Jewish people and delegitimized ethnicity altogether. We have nearly 2000 years of history establishing this based on these few verses.

If you are not using them that way, great. However, they are indeed used that way, and the resulting Replacement Theology has characterized much of Church Doctrine for 2000 years, in particular after it became plain that Israel was not going to convert to Christianity en mass after a few hundred years.

Again, though Christians know that ethnicity doesn't determine Salvation they continue to disqualify Israel's national hope of Salvation on the basis of these few verses. And that is the point I wished to make, that these few verses do *not* disqualify the ethnic element in either the Law or the NT.

Staying away from pagan ethnicities is just as important today for Christians as it was for Jews under the Law. The only difference now is that there is no Law separating them religiously or ceremonially, it being that Israel is no longer a holy nation, separated by God unto Himself.

We separate from pagans as Christians not to exclude them from Grace, but rather, to avoid spiritual contamination. We reach out to them while keeping ourselves "unstained by the world."

We reach out to the world today because Israel failed to even maintain a pure national testimony, making all pagan nations equally eligible for Grace. Israel's failure has led to God's demonstration that He had always planned Salvation not just for Israel but also for the whole world.

I continue to think Israel's time has not expired, and that one day, after Christ comes, Israel will obtain what God promised them.

 

[Clare73]

Well, I have a problem with that. The call and gift of God are irrevocable.

The call and the gifts are irrevocable (Ro 11:25) and are being fulfilled in a remnant (Ro 11:1-6).

God called Israel, and now He has called many European, American, African, and other nations. They do not lose their calling simply because leaven leavens the whole lump, and nations get diluted in their Christianity and commit apostasy from it.

If Israel had no hope of recovery I would say that they are no longer God's People.

NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church is that Israel's hope of recovery (Ro 11) is their grafting back into the one olive tree of God's people, the church. . .IF they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23), which they have for 2,000 years now. . .and counting.

All mankind, including Israel, is now on the same footing with God; i.e., salvation from eternal condemnation is only by faith in and trust on the person and atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God.

 

[Jimmy It]

I continue to think Israel's time has not expired, and that one day, after Christ comes, Israel will obtain what God promised them.

I also believe God has neither forgotten nor forsaken Israel. He chose them. They play a role in the return of Christ.

Jeremiah, 3:17 At that time they will call Jerusalem The Throne of the Lord, and all nations will gather in Jerusalem to honor the name of the Lord. No longer will they follow the stubbornness of their evil hearts. 18 In those days the people of Judah will join the people of Israel, and together they will come from a northern land to the land I gave your ancestors as an inheritance.

https://twitter.com/intent/tweet/?t...s/what-is-biblical-prophecy-about-israel.html
For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land (Ezekiel 36:24).
"I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves." (Zechariah 12:2-3)

 

[RandyPNW]

I also believe God has neither forgotten nor forsaken Israel. He chose them. They play a role in the return of Christ.

Jeremiah, 3:17 At that time they will call Jerusalem The Throne of the Lord, and all nations will gather in Jerusalem to honor the name of the Lord. No longer will they follow the stubbornness of their evil hearts. 18 In those days the people of Judah will join the people of Israel, and together they will come from a northern land to the land I gave your ancestors as an inheritance.

https://twitter.com/intent/tweet/?text=What Is Israel's Role in End Times Bible Prophecy?&url=https://www.christianity.com/wiki/end-times/what-is-biblical-prophecy-about-israel.html
For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land (Ezekiel 36:24).
"I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves." (Zechariah 12:2-3)

I am not an effeminate man, but I do weep when I study out the promised salvation of the Jewish People. God's faithfulness is beyond comprehension to me, enduring hundreds and thousands of years of hardness of heart to plow through to the end, when a remnant will awaken and the nation will be broken in half. The Jewish nation can become a Christian nation! Thanks much!

 

[RandyPNW]

The call and the gifts are irrevocable (Ro 11:25) and are being fulfilled in a remnant (Ro 11:1-6).

I agree that God presently has a remnant of Christians among the Jews who will likely become more prominent as we get closer to the return of Jesus. When Christ comes back he will smash the nations, including Israel, but will save a remnant of repentant Jews. Then the nation of Israel will, I believe, become a Christian nation.

NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church is that Israel's hope of recovery (Ro 11) is their grafting back into the one olive tree of God's people, the church. . .IF they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23), which they have for 2,000 years now. . .and counting.

I agree. However, when the nation of Israel is not presently Christian, God still looks at them as a prospective Christian nation. He sees them still as descendants of Abraham. As such, in bringing them to national salvation God is still fulfilling His promises to Abraham.

All mankind, including Israel, is now on the same footing with God; i.e., salvation from eternal condemnation is only by faith in and trust on the person and atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God.

Yes. What Israel had gone through, from being a covenant nation to an unfaithful nation is something all nations are going through, if they have become a covenant nation at all. There have been many Christian nations, and they are all suffering the same kind of apostasy that Israel suffered. May the Lord have mercy on us all!

 

[Clare73]

I agree that God presently has a remnant of Christians among the Jews who will likely become more prominent as we get closer to the return of Jesus. When Christ comes back he will smash the nations, including Israel, but will save a remnant of repentant Jews. Then the nation of Israel will, I believe, become a Christian nation.

I agree. However, when the nation of Israel is not presently Christian, God still looks at them as a prospective Christian nation.

Nowhere is that stated in Scripture. . .not to mention that God also looks at Gentiles as prospective Christians.
Judgment is rendered according to what is stated in NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (as distinct from prophetic riddles--Nu 12:8--subject to more than one interpretation); i.e., that they are placed on the same footing as are all Gentiles, their destiny is to be grafted back into the one olive tree of God's people, the church. . .IF (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23), as they have for 2,000 years now, and counting.

He sees them still as descendants of Abraham. As such, in bringing them to national salvation God is still fulfilling His promises to Abraham.

Not according to NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, where God's promise to Abraham (Seed, Gal 3:16) is fulfilled in Jesus Christ, where all those in Christ, the seed of Abraham, are also the seed of Abraham (Gal 3:29)

 

[RandyPNW]

Nowhere is that stated in Scripture. . .

Clare, it is most certainly said in the Scriptures that Israel is a prospective Christian nation! How can you deny this? Even if you have a different interpretation of these passages you should not deny that some see this as being explicitly said!

Acts 1.6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

Acts 3.17 “Now, fellow Israelites, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18 But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer. 19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20 and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Rom 11.25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.

not to mention that God also looks at Gentiles as prospective Christians.

Yes, God looks at Gentiles as prospective Christians. But He looks not just at Gentiles as individuals but also Gentiles as complete nations, who adopt Christian monarchies and democracies, constitutions and bylaws.

Gen 17.5 No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations.

Rom 4.18 Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”

Judgment is rendered according to what is stated in NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (as distinct from prophetic riddles--Nu 12:8--subject to more than one interpretation); i.e., that they are placed on the same footing as are all Gentiles, their destiny is to be grafted back into the one olive tree of God's people, the church. . .IF (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23), as they have for 2,000 years now, and counting.

Apparently you ignored my point on this? I said that yes, there is zero partiality with God in respect to Jews, Gentiles, and ethnicities, as well as nationalities. But this is *not* saying that the *distinctions* of ethnicities and nationalities cease to be important. God made promises specific to Israel without failing to make similar promises to other nations.

The barrier between Jew and Gentile was erected to separate a holy people from unclean pagan peoples--not to establish a basis of partiality and bias, or favoritism. It is the same today--Christians should separate from unbelievers in their fellowships and in their practices. However, the covenant opportunity given to nations and to individuals has been expanded to include all nations and all peoples.

It's not critical what we believe on this subject. I guess we'll find out when Jesus comes back?

 

[Jimmy It]

I am not an effeminate man, but I do weep when I study out the promised salvation of the Jewish People. God's faithfulness is beyond comprehension to me, enduring hundreds and thousands of years of hardness of heart to plow through to the end, when a remnant will awaken and the nation will be broken in half. The Jewish nation can become a Christian nation! Thanks much!

I think Romans 11 has been addressed already. I didn't see John.

God blinded the Israelites



Romans, 11:18

Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, you don't bear the root, but the root you. You will say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, pay attention, he may not spare you. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness: otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if thou were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?


25 For I would not, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles come in.

John,12:37

Although Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still did not believe in Him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

“Lord, who has believed our message?

And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

For this reason they were unable to believe. For again, Isaiah says:

“He has blinded their eyes

and hardened their hearts,

so that they cannot see with their eyes,

and understand with their hearts,

and turn,

and I would heal them.

 

[Clare73]

Clare, it is most certainly said in the Scriptures that Israel is a prospective Christian nation! How can you deny this? Even if you have a different interpretation of these passages you should not deny that some see this as being explicitly said!

Acts 1.6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority."

Which is not an acknowledgement that God will do as they think he will do.

Acts 3.17 “Now, fellow Israelites, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18 But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer. 19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20 and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

There is a future state, another life after this, which times will come from the presence of the Lord at his glorious appearing at the end of time, the restitution of all things, the new heavens and the earth.

Rom 11.25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.

All true Israel (a remnant, Ro 11:1-6) is being saved along with a remnant of the Gentiles, and in this way all true Israel, as well as all believing Gentiles, will be saved--both in a remnant.