Incarnated Sonship or Eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ?

[65James]

So what is your view was Jesus the Word (LOGOS) made flesh, incarnation that He became the Son of God on His birth in this world/or death and Resurrection as a few Protestant churches teach (before this He existed as the LOGOS) which is my view? Or do you believe Jesus Christ is the Eternal Son of God? If the latter could you show some Scriptures to support the Eternal Sonship?

 

[ViaCrucis]

So what is your view was Jesus the Word (LOGOS) made flesh, incarnation that He became the Son of God on His birth in this world/or death and Resurrection as a few Protestant churches teach (before this He existed as the LOGOS) which is my view? Or do you believe Jesus Christ is the Eternal Son of God? If the latter could you show some Scriptures to support the Eternal Sonship?

The Nicene Creed, the standard we all affirm, is clear about Christ being the Eternal Son of the Father.

As for Scripture, try John 1:18 and John 17:5.

Jesus has always known His Father as Father. The Son's eternal glory which He has always had with His Father.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Mark Quayle]

So what is your view was Jesus the Word (LOGOS) made flesh, incarnation that He became the Son of God on His birth in this world/or death and Resurrection as a few Protestant churches teach (before this He existed as the LOGOS) which is my view? Or do you believe Jesus Christ is the Eternal Son of God? If the latter could you show some Scriptures to support the Eternal Sonship?

You might want to explore the idea that it can be both. God does not see time as we do. He sees fact as complete fact, yet fact is his invention. It may be possible that the Son of God, is named that because he was of the seed planted by the Spirit of God.

Second, bear always in mind that the concepts invoked in our vaporous minds by the words we use are only misty pictures at best, of the solid reality of God's economy. The Father is not like our notion of Father, and The Son is not like our notion of Sonship. We are made in his image, and not the other way around.

 

[Clare73]

So what is your view was Jesus the Word (LOGOS) made flesh, incarnation that He became the Son of God on His birth in this world/or death and Resurrection as a few Protestant churches teach (before this He existed as the LOGOS) which is my view?
Or do you believe Jesus Christ is the Eternal Son of God? If the latter could you show some Scriptures to support the Eternal Sonship?

According to the NT, he was both, God the eternal Son (Jn 1:1) and temporal man (Jn 1:14) the Son of God (Lk 1:35).

 

[RandyPNW]

So what is your view was Jesus the Word (LOGOS) made flesh, incarnation that He became the Son of God on His birth in this world/or death and Resurrection as a few Protestant churches teach (before this He existed as the LOGOS) which is my view? Or do you believe Jesus Christ is the Eternal Son of God? If the latter could you show some Scriptures to support the Eternal Sonship?

I've found the language to be the greatest impediment on this issue. If we say Jesus' Sonship began with his birth we appear to deny his preexistence as Deity. If we say Jesus has been the Son of God eternally then we seem to claim he was eternally a human, which is absurd.

So Jesus, as a Person, existed from eternity. Jesus, who is *now* called the Son of God, eternally existed. But obviously Jesus was not always called the Son of God in the sense of his being a man eternally.

God exists in an eternal relationship between Himself as Source and His expression as Logos/Word. It would be like saying I as a manufacturer am distinct from the things I manufacture, or that I as an orator am distinct from the speeches I've made.

God and His expression are of the same essential substance. However, the substance obtains new substances and forms when God expresses Himself beyond the Source of that expression.

God created an expression of His own person in a new substance of flesh, in the form of a man. This was an additional substance and a new form beyond the source of this revelation.

And so, God as Father and God as Son took on a distinction when the Word became flesh or God became a Man. This reflects the eternal relationship God has had between Himself as Source and His expression in His Word.

When we say the Son of God existed from eternity "with God," we're not saying that the Son of God was in the form of the man Jesus from eternity. Nor are we even describing what that Person's form was before it took expression as a man. We are simply saying that God and His Word existed as an eternal distinction in an eternal relationship before God revealed Himself in the form of a man.

Describing the "Son of God" as a "person" before his formation as Jesus is a pure absurdity unless we are simply saying that he existed in essence from eternity. The Word of God from eternity was potentially the person Jesus and is potentially many more persons in other forms--we just don't know of them other than through theophanies.

To say Jesus *became the Son of God* in the sense of putting Deity upon a purely human Jesus is a heresy. This is Adoptionism, such as was held by the Jewish Ebionites.

 

[concretecamper]

So what is your view was Jesus the Word (LOGOS) made flesh, incarnation that He became the Son of God on His birth in this world/or death and Resurrection as a few Protestant churches teach (before this He existed as the LOGOS) which is my view? Or do you believe Jesus Christ is the Eternal Son of God? If the latter could you show some Scriptures to support the Eternal Sonship?

It may help to first contemplate what it is to be "eternal".

 

[SavedByGrace3]

The Word was in God.
The Word came out of God and became the Son.
A body was prepared for the Son, and He was born into that body.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The Nicene Creed speaks of the Son's Eternal Generation; He is Son and Word; of the Father's own Being.

Since there was never a time when the Father became a Father (He is Eternally the Father, that is Who He is, from all eternity) there can never be a time when the Son was not. For the Son is as ancient as the Father; and if the Father is eternally ancient then the Son is likewise eternally ancient.

There was never a time God was not Father, and therefore with His Son; and there was never a time when the Son was not, for He has always been, and eternally of the Father.

So when our Lord speaks of the glory He always had with the Father, He speaks of the eternal glory He has always had as the Son of the Father. He was never not Son, because He has always, from all eternity, known His Father as Father. Father and Son are not temporal names; but Eternal. The Father has always been Father; the Son has always been Son. The Father always with His Son, and the Son always with His Father.

And in this Eternal unity and holiness, the Holy Spirit; of Father, and of Son, of Father and Son. Spirit of the Father, Spirit of the Son. Who by the Spirit's condescension to us, tabernacling in us (1 Corinthian 6:19), we read that we therefore have the Spirit of God's Son in us, by which we cry out "Abba! Father" (Galatians 4:4-6, Romans 8:15). For the Spirit in us means we are in Christ, united to Christ--the only-begotten Son. And having been united to the Son, His Father is our Father, therefor we have been given the right to be called the sons of God (John 1:12-13).

The doctrine of the Eternal Generation of the Son is not mere theological minutia; but is intrinsic to our faith in God the Holy Trinity and of the entire work of salvation.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[concretecamper]

The Word was in God.
The Word came out of God and became the Son.
A body was prepared for the Son, and He was born into that body.

The fruits of Sola Scriptura

 

[Clare73]

The Word was in God.
The Word came out of God and became the Son.
A body was prepared for the Son, and He was born into that body.

There was never a time when the Word (the Son) was not emanating from within the Father.
He has always been emanating.

A complete human body was prepared for the divine eternal Son, so that Jesus of Nazareth was both fully man and fully God (the Son)--two natures in one person, Jesus of Nazareth.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

There was never a time when the Word (the Son) was not eminating from within the Father.
He has always been eminating.

A complete human body was prepared for the divine eternal Son, so that Jesus of Nazareth was both fully man and fully God (the Son)--two natures in one person, Jesus of Nazareth.

Looking for a verse that uses the word "emanating." Cannot seem to find it? I understand what you are saying... but I need some text.
Thanks

 

[ViaCrucis]

Looking for a verse that uses the word "emanating." Cannot seem to find it? I understand what you are saying... but I need some text.
Thanks

A better word would be generated/generating. Compare with Greek gennao.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[SavedByGrace3]

From a book I published years ago.

The Womb Of God​

It sounds odd to say God has a “womb.” In this case, the concept is metaphorical. The concept is used in the context that the Son existed in the "bosom of the Father" and, after that, “issued forth” from the Father. Therefore, the Word/Son has the same substance and identity as the Father.

Traditionally, Christians have taken Psalm 110 to be the words of the Father to the Son. From verse 1:

“The Lord said to my lord…

The immediate, pre-creation relationship of the Word is described as a child in the womb of God.

Psalms 110:1 (Brenton - Septuagint)
"The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The Lord shall send out a rod of power for thee out of Sion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. With thee is dominion in the day of thy power, in the splendours of thy saints: I have begotten thee from the womb before the morning."

Psalms 110:3 (Lamsa translation)
"Thy people shall be glorious in the day of thy power; arrayed in the beauty of holiness from the womb, I have begotten thee as a child from the ages."

Psalms 110:3 Darby
3 With thee is the principality in the day of thy strength: in the brightness of the saints: from the womb before the day star, I begot thee.

​

This was the understanding of the early Church Fathers.

"From the womb, before the morning star, have I begotten thee."

Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho​

"In the splendors of Thy holiness have I begotten Thee from the womb, before the morning star."

Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho​

“One must believe that the Son is begotten and born not from nothing, nor from some other substance, but from the womb of the Father [de Patris uter], that is, from his substance.”

Church Council of Toledo 675​

(In Latin, “de Patris utero” — literally, from the uterus of the Father.)

"…it is said, ‘He who is in the bosom of the Father hath declared Him’ (John 1:18). But that which is the womb, is the bosom also. What meaneth, 'from the womb'? (Ps 110:3) From what is secret, from what is hidden; from Myself, from My substance; this is the meaning of 'from the womb.' Let us then understand the Father saying unto the Son, 'From my womb before the morning star I have brought Thee forth."

Augustine of Hippo​

“The term derives from John 1:18, ‘No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, has made him known.” The Greek text here has kolpos, ‘bosom’, but the early Syriac translators chose to render the word, not by kenpa, ’lap bosom’, but by ‘ubba’, which has a much wider range of meaning than does kolpos and includes ‘womb’ as well as ‘lap’.

Sebastian Brock
University of Oxford
“The Luminous Eye”​

The earliest Syriac version of John 1:18 reads,
‘the only-begotten Son, which is from the womb of the Father,’

This wording was kept in the Peshitta version.
Let us reiterate that we are in no way suggesting that God is female or that He has an actual womb such as a human woman; only that this term is used several times by the ancients to describe the “begetting” of the Son from the Father. In the beginning, the Word was within God and after that was born "out of" God.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

A better word would be generated/generating. Compare with Greek gennao.

-CryptoLutheran

Thank you.

 

[public hermit]

It may help to first contemplate what it is to be "eternal".

A better word would be generated/generating. Compare with Greek gennao.

It's seems if the eternal generates anything, then what is generated will also be eternal. Generating/generation seems to have the peculiar property of producing the same kind as the one generating, unlike creating or making.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Looking for a verse that uses the word "emanating." Cannot seem to find it? I understand what you are saying... but I need some text.
Thanks

John 16:28 "I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.” with John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

Mikah 5:2 "And thou, Beth-Lehem Ephratah, Little to be among the chiefs of Judah! From thee to Me he cometh forth -- to be ruler in Israel, And his comings forth [are] of old, From the days of antiquity"

"Comes forth" should be close enough to "emanating", I should think. Further, though, "to eminate" is only a description for the sake of a human mind. We don't know what it means for Christ to come from the Father —only what it looks like to our mind's constructions.

 

[eleos1954]

So what is your view was Jesus the Word (LOGOS) made flesh, incarnation that He became the Son of God on His birth in this world/or death and Resurrection as a few Protestant churches teach (before this He existed as the LOGOS) which is my view? Or do you believe Jesus Christ is the Eternal Son of God? If the latter could you show some Scriptures to support the Eternal Sonship?

The very first verse of the Bible says, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1). Elsewhere the Bible says, "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made" (John 1:3). But God had no beginning! He has always existed -- and He always will.

Jesus was not created ... He has always existed and is the eternal son of God.

Logos is the Greek word transcribed as “reason,” “word,” “speech,” or “principle.”

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

His glory as eternal Logos is same as His glory as only begotten Son. Compare 1 John 1:1-3 where three terms are used to speak of the Second Person of the Trinity–“Word, eternal life, Son”–without any apparent distinction.

 

[Clare73]

Looking for a verse that uses the word "emanating." Cannot seem to find it? I understand what you are saying... but I need some text.
Thanks

OK. . .Jesus used the word
ex-elthon (form of erchomai) - "to proceed, to emanate (to flow out, to issue from a source, as light issues from the sun), to come or go out of, to go forth" when he said that he
came forth out of God (Jn 8:42),
came forth from the Father (Jn 16:27)
came forth out of the Father (Jn 16:28)
came forth from you (Father, Jn 17:8).

We have the same concept with the Holy Spirit and the word ek-poreuetai (to go forth, to go from or out of, to proceed out from within) in Jn 15:26.
The Son and the Holy Spirit are God because they come out from within God, as light comes out from within the sun, because the sun is light.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

OK. . .Jesus used the word
ex-elthon (form of erchomai) - "to proceed, to emanate (to flow out, to issue from a source, as light issues from the sun), to come or go out of, to go forth" when he said that he
came forth out of God (Jn 8:42),
came forth from the Father (Jn 16:27)
came forth out of the Father (Jn 16:28)
came forth from you (Father, Jn 17:8).

We have the same concept with the Holy Spirit and the word ek-poreuetai (to go forth, to go from or out of, to proceed out from within) in Jn 15:26.
The Son and the Holy Spirit are God because they come out from within God, as light comes out from within the sun, because the sun is light.

That is precisely what I said. Thanks

 

[Mark Quayle]

It's seems if the eternal generates anything, then what is generated will also be eternal. Generating/generation seems to have the peculiar property of producing the same kind as the one generating, unlike creating or making.

Sounds like salvific faith is eternal too, then.