Simply Put

John S

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Not so. At Acts 28 (AD 63) the prophetic clock stopped as in other times when they were "Lo-ammi"(Hosea 1:9). God does not see the time they were in captivity when the gentile calendar does.

All during the Acts period the soon return of Christ was expected but that expectation was dashed in Rome while Paul was in prison. Acts 28 is a dispensation boundary that cannot be ignored, but most do. Antagonism toward the Truth is the mother of error. I have been studying this for too long to give it up on a whim. The book of Revelation may be symbolic but the symbolism reveals a much greater terror than we can imagine. I will not spiritualize away the Truth.
The Book of Revelation is John's First Century attempt to explain the rise of a dictator and WWIII - WITHOUT a Pre-Trib Rapture.
A dictator who will claim to be god and will kill anyone who dares to disagree with that.
A world war so intense that the excessive use of atomic weapons will make a hole in the atmosphere - the plagues, bowls, seals, etc., that it will bring about the annihilation of the human race, if it were not for the return of Jesus Christ.
It will be a time so horrendous that it will take 1000 years before anyone attempts such a thing again - but then again, Satan won't be around to cause any problems either.
 
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ebedmelech

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Mic 7:15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.

The Book of Revelation is intimately tied to the Book of Exodus.
As in the Exodus there will be signs and wonders greater in Revelation.


It was on the wings of an eagle (the power of God) Israel was delivered from the hands of the Pharoah's army and will be the same in Revelation.
The flood from the dragon's mouth is symbolic of the same type event but on a larger scale. It is the last wave of antisemitism that strikes the world.
Just as in the wilderness when they were fed with manna will they be fed again for the 3 and 1/2 years in that same wilderness.
The sea swallowed up the enemy to help the woman and the EARTH shall open up and swallow the flood of armies going against Israel in Revelation


Isa 59:19....When... the enemy... shall come in... like a flood...the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him.

Num 16:29-33
29 If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the Lord hath not sent me.
30 But if the Lord make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the Lord.
31 And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them:
32 And... the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.
33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation
.

And the earth shall swallow up the enemy in Revelation.
Isa 11:15-16
15 And the Lord shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

Do you even read when a prophet tells you WHEN he's prophesying? Once again missing the mark! Micah 1:1:
The word of the Lord which came to Micah of Moresheth in the days of Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, which he saw concerning Samaria and Jerusalem.

So now get the picture...neither Jerusalem or Samaria have yet been judged by God.

This is the time that Samaria (Israel) is about to be judged by God. He will wipe them of the land, and He uses Assyria to do it!

You can start to understand this beginning at 2 Kings 16 or 2 Chronicles 28.

You then show how bad you read scripture, jumping to Isaiah 59...:confused:

Also take note that Revelation is closely tied to Leviticus 26. Take note of how many times the Lord says "I will punish you SEVEN TIMES MORE for you sins.

Work with that...:thumbsup:
 
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mmksparbud

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Well let's see...

1. Jesus is addressing the questions He was asked by the disciples IN THE TIME that they were asking them. They want to know 3 things:

Mathhew 24:3:

3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

1. When will these things happen - referring to the fact that the temple would be destroyed. That happened in 70 AD!

2. "what would be the sign of His coming" - They're asking for the signs of Jesus coming. Jesus told them this answer in Matthew 24:32-34, saying "when YOU (the disciples), see these SIGNS". He makes it clear saying just like one can tell when trees put forth their leaves that summer is near, that when they (the disciples), see the signs he gave they would know it's about to happen.

3. "the signs of the end of the age" - Which Jesus discusses in Matthew 25 which culminates with Jesus coming to judge the world! Matthew 25 doesn't address Jerusalem AT ALL...it is covering the time frame WE ARE NOW IN. The next thing to come is Jesus coming to judge the world, which begins at Matthew 25:31-46...that will be the end of the age!

So when Jesus said in Matthew 24:15-33, MANY want to equate those things in the future. They are not! Those things happened when Jesus came in judgment of Jerusalem/Israel. Jesus even borrowed the language of Isaiah 13:10 as well as Ezekiel 32:7 to make the point that this is judgment! As in Isaiah 13, Isaiah is prophesying the judgment of Babylon, and Ezekiel 32:7 is the judgment of Egypt. This Jesus is speaking of, is judgment on the people of Israel as well as the land. That's what's going on!

Luke REALLY gives us a clearer picture that this is judgment against Jerusalem/Israel, as he says it more plainly in Luke 21:20-24;
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;
22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


So...IT HAPPENED! Those people saw this...and it was NOT the end of the world, but the end of Jerusalem/Israel as Christ came in judgment upon them using Rome as His instrument of judgment. That is how the tribes of the earth saw this happen.

It's not going to happen again!

Soooo----none of this is going to happen again??----

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


The angels gathered His elect from the 4 winds and from one end of heaven to another back in 70 AD and right after that the sun darkened, the moon did not give her light, and the stars fell from heaven and the powers of the heavens were shaken?-- And the Son of Man came in the clouds with great power and great glory?----There was a deplorable lack of documentation done at that time, esp since the whole world saw this and nobody wrote a thing down--they didn't hear the great sound of a trumpet, I guess. Well, thanks for clearing that up.
 
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Interplanner

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Mt24B was expected right after the disaster of the DofJ, but Jesus said almost the next paragraph that it was not finalized, that the Father would make that decision.

This is not a difficult assertion.

24A is about the DofJ. 24B is future and universal, but was expected right after.

The sarcasm of your last line is flat because the Father has decided otherwise, which 2 Pet 3 also speaks to (the cynicism there is that the end was expected). We are not saying the world ended, only that it was expected, from indications here and elsewhere like the Thess letters.

Josephus did record some bizarre signs during the DofJ in a detached way, and mentioned witnesses of them. But obviously the world did not end.

NT eschatology (that of Jesus and Paul) is either near-future and Judean-based OR distant-future and universal. There are no distant future Judean details.

In spite of putting this assertion clearly, several of you continue to criticise it for things it is not saying.
 
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ebedmelech

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Soooo----none of this is going to happen again??----

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


The angels gathered His elect from the 4 winds and from one end of heaven to another back in 70 AD and right after that the sun darkened, the moon did not give her light, and the stars fell from heaven and the powers of the heavens were shaken?-- And the Son of Man came in the clouds with great power and great glory?----There was a deplorable lack of documentation done at that time, esp since the whole world saw this and nobody wrote a thing down--they didn't hear the great sound of a trumpet, I guess. Well, thanks for clearing that up.
No. it will not be repeated.

When it comes to gathering, it can't be the end, because Jesus goes on to speak what we read in Matthew 25. So..."the gathering" of Matthew 24 is done through salvation...and in Matthew 25:31-41 speaking of the judgment.
 
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Notrash

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Mt24B was expected right after the disaster of the DofJ, but Jesus said almost the next paragraph that it was not finalized, that the Father would make that decision.

This is not a difficult assertion.

24A is about the DofJ. 24B is future and universal, but was expected right after.

The sarcasm of your last line is flat because the Father has decided otherwise, which 2 Pet 3 also speaks to (the cynicism there is that the end was expected). We are not saying the world ended, only that it was expected, from indications here and elsewhere like the Thess letters.

Josephus did record some bizarre signs during the DofJ in a detached way, and mentioned witnesses of them. But obviously the world did not end.

NT eschatology (that of Jesus and Paul) is either near-future and Judean-based OR distant-future and universal. There are no distant future Judean details.

In spite of putting this assertion clearly, several of you continue to criticise it for things it is not saying.
Could 24b breferþto the extension of the gospels effect to the pagan roman empire or oikomene as well as the kosmos? I don't agree that it has to be future.
 
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Interplanner

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24B, besides being applicable to the whole world, does draw some parallels to the DofJ of surprise about the 2nd coming, no doubt. Sometimes it even seems to 'loop' back to the DofJ. For ex., the taken in v40 are not taken to a good place as in a rapture; they are confiscated and destroyed.

Even the flood imagery here reminds us of Dan 9's "the end will come like a flood." This is a good reason, btw, to regard 24:3s "end of the age" as the end/destruction of Israel repeating the one in 586. The "end" that comes like a flood is the DofJ. Both of those things show looping back, while still making a parallel to the surprise of the 2nd coming.
 
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interpreter

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The Revelation began unfolding in 312 AD when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power through St. Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow.
We are now experiencing the 7 last plagues which proves that all prior prophecies have been fulfilled.
 
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John S

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The Revelation began unfolding in 312 AD when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power through St. Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow.
We are now experiencing the 7 last plagues which proves that all prior prophecies have been fulfilled.

Preterist garbage.
 
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Interplanner

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It does no good to use labels. I don't know anyone but that individual who thinks that way. Even Codger who has good reasons for following the Roman empire for the subsequent 4 centuries does not sound like Interp.

Don't use labels; address specific flaws. Like "replacement theology." The original problem is in and spoken about in Gal 3. It was Judaism's RT.
 
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interpreter

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Preterism is Satanic garbage.
I do not consider myself to be a preterist which suggests a first century fulfillment. I am a historicist. I agree that first century preterism is Satanic garbage.
Anyhow back to my question, do you deny that we are now experiencing last plague # 4?
 
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Interplanner

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stop the labeling. if you believe in the virgin birth then you are 1% preterist because it is prophecy that was fulfilled in the 1st century. Instead, address specific items.

I don't know how futurism can exist, on the other hand, without saying that the church is a surprise or parenthesis or plan B, so if I speak about futurism and D'ism in terms of an artificial "replacement theology" it is about that specific belief.

I am entirely for the smallest forms of government possible; I assume you know what that means in relation to dictatorships and totalitarianism.
 
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John S

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Until high school, I was brought up as a Catholic. Back then, Catholics were taught that we shouldn't bother reading "The Apocalypse" because we wouldn't understand it. So when I got into my 20's and decided to read it, I wasn't hindered by their interpretations of it - and from what I have seen on this site - Thank Goodness that I wasn't polluted by Protestant nonsense.
So whatever interpretations that I came up with, would be my own.
From the very beginning, my main question was this - " When you take away the symbolism and as much of the religion as you can, what does this mean"? In other words, secularly speaking, how does this apply to the modern world? This is what I came up with.

Simply put, the Book of Revelation is about the rise of a dictator and the world war that ensues.
My next question was - " With the entire Christian world looking for this man, how does this man become a dictator"? The Bible, including Jesus Christ said that MANY will be deceived". So my next question was - "How are these people deceived"? After seeing what Christians have been taught, I can now see. He will NOT be the "bad guy" that everyone is looking for. He will be a hero. He will be able to accomplish things that no one else will be able to do - like forge a peace treaty for the entire Middle East.
Many people have been deceived into believing that they will escape these bad times. When I first heard about the Rapture, I also thought that it was the answer to all of the problems but when I looked at the verses used to validate this doctrine, the more that I became convinced that this doctrine was wrong. Either the verses didn't say what these people thought that they said or their timing was off. In other words, they would be AFTER the return of Jesus Christ and NOT before - making them Post Trib.
The dictator's assassination and "resurrection", just like Jesus Christ, will be the impetus to proclaim himself to be God.
Then God will take His revenge on the planet. It will be God who puts it into the heads of a few leaders to break the peace treaties. In other words, God will be the "bad guy".

Then the next questions were - "What do all of the symbols mean"? and what does "The Day of the Lord" mean?
The more that I read it - secularly, the more that I became convinced that these symbols and "The Day of the Lord" were all about the same thing. These were John's 1st Century interpretations of the effects of a war using atomic weapons - the plagues, the seals, the bowls, the horsemen, etc.
If Jesus Christ would not return then "no flesh would be saved". What would cause the annihilation of the human race? - an all out war with today's weapons that could very easily rip a hole in the atmosphere. When the atmosphere, which protects our bodies from the harmful effects of the sun, is torn, our bodies will face numerous problems. Of course, in a war 50 or more years from now, the weapons will be even worse.

When Jesus Christ does return, the war will be over, Satan will be bound and the world will live in ultimate peace and harmony for, at least, 1000 years.

Because this post is already too long, I will stop it here. If I rambled incoherently, I'm Sorry. I tried to keep it as short as possible.
I KNOW that almost no one will agree with me. That is not my intention. My only goal was for you to read this - and that has been accomplished.

This thread had been dead but it was brought back to life - and NOT by me.
So I thought that I might let people read my original post. I KNOW that Preterists, Historicists, and Pre-Tribbers will disagree with this, but that's O.K.
 
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riverrat

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It does no good to use labels. I don't know anyone but that individual who thinks that way. Even Codger who has good reasons for following the Roman empire for the subsequent 4 centuries does not sound like Interp.

Don't use labels; address specific flaws. Like "replacement theology." The original problem is in and spoken about in Gal 3. It was Judaism's RT.
And this coming from the king of name callers. Give me a break!
 
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Interplanner

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Futurism and D'ism are used re: their sine qua non--the one thing that defines them: separate programs for Israel and the church and even the church as an afterthought. It is people here at CF (besides D'ist authors) who define it this way. So my using Futurist and D'ist is technical not libel.
 
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