Simply Put

John S

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Until high school, I was brought up as a Catholic. Back then, Catholics were taught that we shouldn't bother reading "The Apocalypse" because we wouldn't understand it. So when I got into my 20's and decided to read it, I wasn't hindered by their interpretations of it - and from what I have seen on this site - Thank Goodness that I wasn't polluted by Protestant nonsense.
So whatever interpretations that I came up with, would be my own.
From the very beginning, my main question was this - " When you take away the symbolism and as much of the religion as you can, what does this mean"? In other words, secularly speaking, how does this apply to the modern world? This is what I came up with.

Simply put, the Book of Revelation is about the rise of a dictator and the world war that ensues.
My next question was - " With the entire Christian world looking for this man, how does this man become a dictator"? The Bible, including Jesus Christ said that MANY will be deceived". So my next question was - "How are these people deceived"? After seeing what Christians have been taught, I can now see. He will NOT be the "bad guy" that everyone is looking for. He will be a hero. He will be able to accomplish things that no one else will be able to do - like forge a peace treaty for the entire Middle East.
Many people have been deceived into believing that they will escape these bad times. When I first heard about the Rapture, I also thought that it was the answer to all of the problems but when I looked at the verses used to validate this doctrine, the more that I became convinced that this doctrine was wrong. Either the verses didn't say what these people thought that they said or their timing was off. In other words, they would be AFTER the return of Jesus Christ and NOT before - making them Post Trib.
The dictator's assassination and "resurrection", just like Jesus Christ, will be the impetus to proclaim himself to be God.
Then God will take His revenge on the planet. It will be God who puts it into the heads of a few leaders to break the peace treaties. In other words, God will be the "bad guy".

Then the next questions were - "What do all of the symbols mean"? and what does "The Day of the Lord" mean?
The more that I read it - secularly, the more that I became convinced that these symbols and "The Day of the Lord" were all about the same thing. These were John's 1st Century interpretations of the effects of a war using atomic weapons - the plagues, the seals, the bowls, the horsemen, etc.
If Jesus Christ would not return then "no flesh would be saved". What would cause the annihilation of the human race? - an all out war with today's weapons that could very easily rip a hole in the atmosphere. When the atmosphere, which protects our bodies from the harmful effects of the sun, is torn, our bodies will face numerous problems. Of course, in a war 50 or more years from now, the weapons will be even worse.

When Jesus Christ does return, the war will be over, Satan will be bound and the world will live in ultimate peace and harmony for, at least, 1000 years.

Because this post is already too long, I will stop it here. If I rambled incoherently, I'm Sorry. I tried to keep it as short as possible.
I KNOW that almost no one will agree with me. That is not my intention. My only goal was for you to read this - and that has been accomplished.
 

TPeterY

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Hey, John,
when you read an ancient doc and it says three times in the opening that it is about things 'at hand, immediate, coming shortly' why did you ask yourself "what does this have to do with modern times?"

The most important part concerning the timing of His return explained in the Olivet Discourse is the timing of the fig tree. Only when these signs happen during the time of the fig tree is when His coming is at hand.

There can be wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes, famines and pestilence throughout history but Jesus won't return unless they happen during the timing of the fig tree.

Matthew 24:32-33 (NKJV)
The Parable of the Fig Tree


32) “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33) So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!
 
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parousia70

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The most important part concerning the timing of His return explained in the Olivet Discourse is the timing of the fig tree. Only when these signs happen during the time of the fig tree is when His coming is at hand.

There can be wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes, famines and pestilence throughout history but Jesus won't return unless they happen during the timing of the fig tree.

Matthew 24:32-33 (NKJV)
The Parable of the Fig Tree


32) “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33) So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!


Don't you mean the timing of "all the trees"?


Luke 21:29-30
29 Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near.
 
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TPeterY

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Don't you mean the timing of "all the trees"?


Luke 21:29-30
29 Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near.

Use whatever tree you like. A coconut tree or a papaya tree, both will put forth leaves when its branch already becomes tender, you know that summer is near.

They will all drops their coconuts during Fall as a fig tree drops it's late figs when shaken by a mighty wind (autumn).

Revelation 6:13 (NKJV)
And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
 
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parousia70

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Use whatever tree you like. A coconut tree or a papaya tree, both will put forth leaves when its branch already becomes tender, you know that summer is near.

Then what do you mean by "Only when these signs happen during the time of the fig tree is when His coming is at hand"?

What exactly is "The time of the Fig tree" and how does it differ (or not) from "the time of all the trees"

??

Are you saying that only when the signs such a wars, famines, pestilences, earthquakes happen in springtime is when His coming is at hand?
 
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By Faith Alone

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The Book of Revelation concerns the last 3 and 1/2 years of the 70th week of Daniel. Daniel is prophetic concerning the nation Israel. What happened that that which was prophesied did not happen with the immediacy declared? The olive tree was hewn to the roots at Acts 28. Prophecies concerning Israel were suspended and the one NEW man was introduced for the first time in 63 AD.

What about the wars and rumors of wars and the earthquakes? Let us look.

The sign of the coming of the Son of Man:
The earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ was limited to the people of Israel as related to the promise made to David concerning Israel's King. It also had in view the promise made to Abraham concerning the blessing of all the families of the earth. It did not extend to them at that time being concentrated rather upon Israel. It was Israel from whom (the appointed channel) the blessing should flow to all nations. Here is the Scripture proofs for said statements and that Matthew 24-25 was for Israel and the advent of that particular phase has nothing to do with the hope of our church today (the one NEW man).


Jesus’ Earthly ministry was to Israel:
Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision (Israel) for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
Matt 10:5-6
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The promise made to David concerning a King in view:
Matt 2:2-5 Where is he that is born King of the Jews?...... In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
Matt 21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee
Matt 22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
Acts 2:30-31 Therefore
(David) being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ

Israel as the chosen channel of blessing to the Gentiles:
Acts 3:25-26
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

All things considered in these Scriptures prove the aim of the Earthly ministry of Jesus and that aim was on Israel.
Now let us consider Matthew 24 and 25. Those chapters are the prophesy of the second coming of Jesus Christ and concerns the hope of Israel and not our church. Those two chapters were given as a response to three questions:

Matt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end (sunteleia) of the world (age)?
That very word sunteleia that is translated “end” is the words used for the third great feast and is as follows:
Ex 23:16 And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field.
It was well known to every Jew. That is only one proof Matthew 24 was aimed at the Hope of Israel. Another proof is the declaration “ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars.” We see that this precedes the coming of the Lord but the statement by itself does not prove the Hope of Israel is in view. There have been many wars and rumors of war since Acts 28 and the setting aside of Israel. But if we turn to the Old Testament to find the root/origin of the statement “nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom” (Matthew 24:7)
Isa 19:1-2
1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the Lord rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.
2 And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbour; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom.
Isa 19:25 Whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

Anyone who is honest can see and admit that is not the hope of our church by any stretch of the imagination.
The coming of the Lord comes after these prophetic statements are fulfilled:
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Please read Matthew 24:15-30 for the parallel passages.

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place . . . then shall be great tribulation . . . IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days . . . shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven . . . and they shall see the Son of man COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN”.
It CANNOT be said that the second coming of the Lord has anything for the church of ours as tradition has it.
 
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interpreter

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Until high school, I was brought up as a Catholic. Back then, Catholics were taught that we shouldn't bother reading "The Apocalypse" because we wouldn't understand it. So when I got into my 20's and decided to read it, I wasn't hindered by their interpretations of it - and from what I have seen on this site - Thank Goodness that I wasn't polluted by Protestant nonsense.
So whatever interpretations that I came up with, would be my own.
From the very beginning, my main question was this - " When you take away the symbolism and as much of the religion as you can, what does this mean"? In other words, secularly speaking, how does this apply to the modern world? This is what I came up with.

Simply put, the Book of Revelation is about the rise of a dictator and the world war that ensues.
My next question was - " With the entire Christian world looking for this man, how does this man become a dictator"? The Bible, including Jesus Christ said that MANY will be deceived". So my next question was - "How are these people deceived"? After seeing what Christians have been taught, I can now see. He will NOT be the "bad guy" that everyone is looking for. He will be a hero. He will be able to accomplish things that no one else will be able to do - like forge a peace treaty for the entire Middle East.
Many people have been deceived into believing that they will escape these bad times. When I first heard about the Rapture, I also thought that it was the answer to all of the problems but when I looked at the verses used to validate this doctrine, the more that I became convinced that this doctrine was wrong. Either the verses didn't say what these people thought that they said or their timing was off. In other words, they would be AFTER the return of Jesus Christ and NOT before - making them Post Trib.
The dictator's assassination and "resurrection", just like Jesus Christ, will be the impetus to proclaim himself to be God.
Then God will take His revenge on the planet. It will be God who puts it into the heads of a few leaders to break the peace treaties. In other words, God will be the "bad guy".

Then the next questions were - "What do all of the symbols mean"? and what does "The Day of the Lord" mean?
The more that I read it - secularly, the more that I became convinced that these symbols and "The Day of the Lord" were all about the same thing. These were John's 1st Century interpretations of the effects of a war using atomic weapons - the plagues, the seals, the bowls, the horsemen, etc.
If Jesus Christ would not return then "no flesh would be saved". What would cause the annihilation of the human race? - an all out war with today's weapons that could very easily rip a hole in the atmosphere. When the atmosphere, which protects our bodies from the harmful effects of the sun, is torn, our bodies will face numerous problems. Of course, in a war 50 or more years from now, the weapons will be even worse.

When Jesus Christ does return, the war will be over, Satan will be bound and the world will live in ultimate peace and harmony for, at least, 1000 years.

Because this post is already too long, I will stop it here. If I rambled incoherently, I'm Sorry. I tried to keep it as short as possible.
I KNOW that almost no one will agree with me. That is not my intention. My only goal was for you to read this - and that has been accomplished.
The great tribulation was WW II. Hitler's Third Reich was the third head # 6 of the 666 trilogy.
 
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TPeterY

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Then what do you mean by "Only when these signs happen during the time of the fig tree is when His coming is at hand"?

What exactly is "The time of the Fig tree" and how does it differ (or not) from "the time of all the trees"

??

Are you saying that only when the signs such a wars, famines, pestilences, earthquakes happen in springtime is when His coming is at hand?

It's in Ezekiel 36 & 37 and Daniel 9. The tribulation leading up to Jesus' Second Coming cannot happen outside of The 70th Week Prophecy and without Israel.
 
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Interplanner

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The years of Daniel are a normal 490 year sequence with the final week being longer for a decisive generation. The 2nd coming does not need to happen in it. The events described are so similar to the DofJ that some maverick scholars try to date Dan 9 as written during the DofJ.

The final week has Messiah providing the atonement for Israels sins (which is what the prayer asked about) and God punishing Israel with finality for not recieving this message. It's connection to the DofJ can't be dissembled.
 
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ebedmelech

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It's in Ezekiel 36 & 37 and Daniel 9. The tribulation leading up to Jesus' Second Coming cannot happen outside of The 70th Week Prophecy and without Israel.
This position is based on the error of futurism not understanding what "a coming of the Lord" is.

When you read the OT of the Lord "coming" it is in judgement. This is not as when Christ specifically says in John 14:1-3:
“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.
2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.


This is very different from when Jesus came in judgement on Jerusalem/Israel in 70 AD, as He stated in Matthew 24:29-31, when He said:
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.


Jesus clearly said His coming was "A SIGN"! A sign of what??? IT WAS A SIGN of His judgement on Jerusalem/Israel!!! Jesus told them in Matthwe 23:37-39, that their house (temple), was left to them desolate...that happened in 70 AD.

THE SEVENTY WEEKS ARE OVER...but many are going to keep looking for the 70th week to happen...but IT WON'T!

Of course I know that many will oppose what I presented in this post...and that's ok!!! We will definitely know one way, or another. :thumbsup:
 
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John S

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John, please don't lump pre-tribbers in with preterists.
I'm Sorry but both Pre-Tribbers and Preterists have already been deceived by Satanic doctrines - and the Tribulation hasn't even begun yet.
I told you that there is enough to argue about with futurists. We don't need to waste our time arguing with atheists or preterists. I also told you that virtually no one agrees with my opinions.
 
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