Shouldn't Creationism be taught at public schools?

[Platte]

Why not the history of Bhutan, Vietnam, Korea, Panama or Slovakia?

School classes about history should focus on influential world empires, there are too many cultures to learn about all of them.

I agree with you on that.

 

[trophy33]

Biblical accounts of origins are historical relevant Genesis was written to provide a historical record of the events of the Jewish people to pass down to their future generations. IMO gen-deu was written with the intent of recording history.

1. We are not Jewish people
2. It was written thousands of years after the supposed historical events
3. It was not written in the era of factual historical records, but in the era of mythological historical records. Therefore, teaching it as factual history has no scholarly basis.

 

[Platte]

1. We are not Jewish people
2. It was written thousands of years after the supposed historical events
3. It was not written in the era of factual historical records, but in the era of mythological historical records. Therefore, teaching it as factual history has no scholarly basis.

I disagree

And it is one of the most studied document from a historical perspective that we have from that time frame

 

[trophy33]

I disagree

You may personally disagree. But the schools curriculum should be based upon the scholarly consensus, which agrees with me.

And it is one of the most studied document from a historical perspective that we have from that time frame

Not sure what that means. What time frame? Babylon?

 

[Job 33:6]

I’m just referring to the Biblical account of these events. The environmental differences required to live 900-1000 years would be interesting to understand. If there was a significantly lower amount of c-14 5000 years ago what would the affect on carbon dating be? I assume we’d all agree the environment to support a lifespan in humans to be 1000 years old would be different then the environment we live in today.

The Bible is not a science textbook. People never lived many centuries. There are several possibilities for why these numbers are listed the way that they are.

In the Sumerian kings list, neighboring ancient Israel, kinds were listed to have lived for 10s of thousands of years. But these ages were used moreso in ways to highlight the significance of the figures being described. It wasn't so much a matter of actual natural ages of people.

Enoch lives the same number of years as there are days in a year for example. It's not really a natural age. It has a figurative component. Or another example is lamech:

Genesis 4:24 NRSV
[24] If Cain is avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy-sevenfold.”

Genesis 5:31 NRSV
[31] Thus all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy-seven years; and he died.

The Hebrew word for the number "7" has the same consonants as the word for "completion". This number is used figuratively, several hundred times in scripture. So when lamech lives to be 777 tripartite 7s, with prior reference to lamech being avenged 77 fold and Cain 7 fold.

These are figurative expressions. It's not about biology.

In fact, if you look closely, all the ages of the patriarchs end with the same numbers.

Genesis 5:5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20, 23 NRSV
[5] Thus all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred thirty years; and he died.
[8] Thus all the days of Seth were nine hundred twelve years; and he died.
[11] Thus all the days of Enosh were nine hundred five years; and he died.
[14] Thus all the days of Kenan were nine hundred and ten years; and he died.
[17] Thus all the days of Mahalalel were eight hundred ninety-five years; and he died.
[20] Thus all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty-two years; and he died.
[23] Thus all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty-five years.

930
912 (-7 is 905)
905
910
895
962 (-7 is 155)
365

All of these numbers, and I could keep going, but they're all divisible by 5, or divisible by 5 with the addition or subtraction of 7 (the number of completion). Which, are numbers that aren't realistic.

And the days that these people have children are the same.

Adam has Seth at 130.
Seth has Enoch at 105
Enosh has kenan at 90
Kenan has mehalalel at 70.
Mehalalel had Jared at 65.
Jared had Enoch at 162 (-7 is 155)
Enoch had methusaleh at 65 etc.

As if the patriarchs intentionally waited until their ages were divisible by 5 before having babies.

It's just not realistic or natural.

Given the Sumerian kings list which does the same thing, culturally, these are figurative. It's just how ancient people presented their kings.

 

[Platte]

The Bible is not a science textbook. People never lived many centuries. There are several possibilities for why these numbers are listed the way that they are.

In the Sumerian kings list, neighboring ancient Israel, kinds were listed to have lived for 10s of thousands of years. But these ages were used moreso in ways to highlight the significance of the figures being described. It wasn't so much a matter of actual natural ages of people.

Enoch lives the same number of years as there are days in a year for example. It's not really a natural age. It has a figurative component. Or another example is lamech:

Genesis 4:24 NRSV
[24] If Cain is avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy-sevenfold.”

Genesis 5:31 NRSV
[31] Thus all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy-seven years; and he died.

The Hebrew word for the number "7" has the same consonants as the word for "completion". This number is used figuratively, several hundred times in scripture. So when lamech lives to be 777 tripartite 7s, with prior reference to lamech being avenged 77 fold and Cain 7 fold.

These are figurative expressions. It's not about biology.

In fact, if you look closely, all the ages of the patriarchs end with the same numbers.

Genesis 5:5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20, 23 NRSV
[5] Thus all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred thirty years; and he died.
[8] Thus all the days of Seth were nine hundred twelve years; and he died.
[11] Thus all the days of Enosh were nine hundred five years; and he died.
[14] Thus all the days of Kenan were nine hundred and ten years; and he died.
[17] Thus all the days of Mahalalel were eight hundred ninety-five years; and he died.
[20] Thus all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty-two years; and he died.
[23] Thus all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty-five years.

930
912 (-7 is 905)
905
910
895
962 (-7 is 155)
365

All of these numbers, and I could keep going, but they're all divisible by 5, or divisible by 5 with the addition or subtraction of 7 (the number of completion). Which, are numbers that aren't realistic.

And the days that these people have children are the same.

Adam has Seth at 130.
Seth has Enoch at 105
Enosh has kenan at 90
Kenan has mehalalel at 70.
Mehalalel had Jared at 65.
Jared had Enoch at 162 (-7 is 155)
Enoch had methusaleh at 65 etc.

As if the patriarchs intentionally waited until their ages were divisible by 5 before having babies.

It's just not realistic or natural.

Given the Sumerian kings list which does the same thing, culturally, these are figurative. It's just how ancient people presented their kings.

You are entitled to your opinion. I see nothing in the Bible that supports what you are saying. God saying the man will live only 120 years certainly implies man was living longer. The same person who did chronologies of people who lived centuries was the same person who documented the reduction in lifespan too. I’ll go with what the Bible says. That being said I still would be interesting to understand what environment supported such old ages…and like I said earlier. If there was very little C-14 in the atmosphere how would that affect carbon dating? May help explain how dinosaurs were able to survive being as big as they were. It not be possible for dinosaurs to survive with the environment we have today.

 

[trophy33]

You are entitled to your opinion. I see nothing in the Bible that supports what you are saying. God saying the man will live only 120 years certainly implies man was living longer. The same person who did chronologies of people who lived centuries was the same person who documented the reduction in lifespan too. I’ll go with what the Bible says. That being said I still would be interesting to understand what environment supported such old ages…and like I said earlier. If there was very little C-14 in the atmosphere how would that affect carbon dating? May help explain how dinosaurs were able to survive being as big as they were. It not be possible for dinosaurs to survive with the environment we have today.

You are mixing the Bible and the natural world - "the person who did chronologies..." vs "C-14 in the atmosphere". Different realms.

The book of Genesis is not a technical documentation. Its a book of cultural narratives.

 

[Job 33:6]

You are entitled to your opinion. I see nothing in the Bible that supports what you are saying. God saying the man will live only 120 years certainly implies man was living longer. The same person who did chronologies of people who lived centuries was the same person who documented the reduction in lifespan too. I’ll go with what the Bible says. That being said I still would be interesting to understand what environment supported such old ages…and like I said earlier. If there was very little C-14 in the atmosphere how would that affect carbon dating? May help explain how dinosaurs were able to survive being as big as they were. It not be possible for dinosaurs to survive with the environment we have today.

Well, the original authors were not modern day genealogists. The Catholic Church made the same argument "I'll go with what the Bible says" when they argued for geocentrism as well. But in the end, they were wrong to approach the Bible as though it presented something akin to genetics, or in this case, astronomy.

Then people act surprised when scientists like Galileo inform them that they're wrong.

 

[Platte]

Well, the original authors were not modern day genealogists. The Catholic Church made the same argument "I'll go with what the Bible says" when they argued for geocentrism as well. But in the end, they were wrong to approach the Bible as though it presented something akin to genetics, or in this case, astronomy.

Then people act surprised when scientists like Galileo inform them that they're wrong.

Geocentrism is not taught in the Bible

 

[trophy33]

Geocentrism is not taught in the Bible

Joshua 10:12-14 - Joshua commands the Sun to stay still, instead of commanding the Earth to stop its rotation. Because the rotation of the Earth was an unknown concept to the author of the book of Joshua.

 

[Platte]

You are mixing the Bible and the natural world - "the person who did chronologies..." vs "C-14 in the atmosphere". Different realms.

The book of Genesis is not a technical documentation. It’s a book of cultural narratives.

Joshua 10:12-14 - Joshua commands the Sun to stay still, instead of commanding the Earth to stop its rotation. Because the rotation of the Earth was an unknown concept to the author of the book of Joshua.

That’s not teaching or claiming geocentrism.

 

[trophy33]

That’s not teaching or claiming geocentrism.

It is. Geocentrism means that the Sun is what moves (circles around the Earth). Thats why Joshua supposedly commanded it to stand still.

 

[Platte]

You are mixing the Bible and the natural world - "the person who did chronologies..." vs "C-14 in the atmosphere". Different realms.

The book of Genesis is not a technical documentation. Its a book of cultural narratives.

If people had a lifespan of 1000 years then the environment would have been different. Pondering on how that may affect current dating methods that are based on the current environment is reasonable.

Genesis is a record of historical events. That what I see in it. You may not agee with what is being said but Gen - Deu was written to record events.

 

[Platte]

It is. Geocentrism means that the Sun is what moves (circles around the Earth). Thats why Joshua supposedly commanded it to stand still.

It’s pretty normal for us even today to reference the sun moving in the sky. We even say it’s a sunrise or a sunset. Like the sun is moving. That does not imply Geocentrism.

 

[trophy33]

If people had a lifespan of 1000 years then the environment would have been different. Pondering on how that may affect current dating methods that are based on the current environment is reasonable.

They did not have such lifespan. People lived for about 50-70 years on average (if they survived childhood, wars, famines and nature).

Only imperial or patriarchal genealogies were mythologically prolonged.

Genesis is a record of historical events. That what I see in it. You may not agee with what is being said but Gen - Deu was written to record events.

Genesis was written after the Babylonian exile. Not during the stories it writes about. Therefore, its not a record, but a narrative.

 

[trophy33]

It’s pretty normal for us even today to reference the sun moving in the sky. We even say it’s a sunrise or a sunset. Like the sun is moving. That does not imply Geocentrism.

It does not imply geocentrism today, because we have been taught in school how the physical universe really works. Joshua, if he was a real person, was not. When you read the writings from that era, there is no solar system in them.

 

[Job 33:6]

Geocentrism is not taught in the Bible

The Bible certainly describes geocentrism. And the Catholic Church rightly observed this. The distinction is that, they thought that the Bible taught modern scientific concepts. And we now know that the Bible does not.

So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Joshua 10:13

‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭
The sun rises, and the sun goes down; to its place it hurries, and there it rises again.

The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah
Psalms 75:3

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

Whoever flees at the sound of the terror shall fall into the pit; and whoever climbs out of the pit shall be caught in the snare. For the windows of heaven are opened, and the foundations of the earth tremble.
Isaiah‬ ‭24:18‬ ‭

Psalms 104:2, 5 NRSV
[2] You stretch out the heavens like a tent,
[5] You set the earth on its foundations, so that it shall never be shaken.

 

[Platte]

They did not have such lifespan. People lived for about 50-70 years on average (if they survived childhood, wars, famines and nature).

Only imperial or patriarchal genealogies were mythologically prolonged.


Genesis was written after the Babylonian exile. Not during the stories it writes about. Therefore, it’s not a record, but a narrative.

Where are your recorded ages? I accept the written record that’s in the Bible.
It was written by Moses. Information from God. Can’t get any better than that.

 

[trophy33]

It was written by Moses. Information from God. Can’t get any better than that.

Bible was not written by Moses. Neither the books of Moses were written by Moses.

And its not information from God. Inspiration does not equal dictation, literal historicity or even infallibility. God is not interested in teaching us genealogies or life spans.

 

[BNR32FAN]

All the time I hear Christians insist that Creationism is a science. In that case--shouldn't Creationism be taught at public schools? After all, Evolution is taught at public schools, so why not Creation Science as well?

As a young earth creationist I would say no for a couple different reasons. There are too many different versions of creationism and creationism isn’t an academic concept, it’s a theological concept. I do however think that schools should be teaching that evolution is not a proven fact and is only an unconfirmed best guess based on the limited information available. The way it’s taught in schools right now it’s considered a genuinely accepted fact instead of a best answer we can give with the information we have available.