Shouldn't Creationism be taught at public schools?

[rturner76]

I don't see anything wrong with teaching Creatism as a theory. I think it is different to teach 6-day creating as an indisputable fact

 

[Jipsah]

The challenge is that the text doesn't really differentiate one way or the other whether the author or audience thought of it in a technical sense or in a phenomenological sense.

It just talks like pepole talk. everyone says "the sun rose", but a tiny few believe that the sun is running around he earth. That's just how we talk.

No one really knows what the original it intent was or how people would have understood it. Literal or non-literal.

We do know that the earth isn't flat, and that it orbits the sun. Simple observation proves it.

hat people back then knew that the sun literally did not rise. What is referred to figuratively today.

Does matter whether they did or didn't.

May have been historically how it was technically understood.

But ultimately, the text does describe an earth that is flat.

Which in fact it is not, whether it seems to look that way or not.

Whether Genesis was intended to be understood metaphorically or literally, to say such a thing, is debatable.

Who cares? The earth is an oblate spheroid, and orbits the sun.

 

[Jipsah]

I don't see anything wrong with teaching Creatism as a theory. I think it is different to teach 6-day creating as an indisputable fact

I see no need to insert religious viewpoints - anyone's religious viewpoints - into the teaching of observable facts.

 

[Jipsah]

Yes, Creationism should be taught in schools. God Bless You

Then be good enough to define the basic presuppositions of "creationism".

 

[lismore]

Then be good enough to define the basic presuppositions of "creationism".

Perhaps we could begin here:

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

You could get several lessons from this one verse alone. God Bless You

 

[Job 33:6]

It just talks like pepole talk. everyone says "the sun rose", but a tiny few believe that the sun is running around he earth. That's just how we talk.

We do know that the earth isn't flat, and that it orbits the sun. Simple observation proves it.

Does matter whether they did or didn't.

Which in fact it is not, whether it seems to look that way or not.

Who cares? The earth is an oblate spheroid, and orbits the sun.

It does matter whether ancient people did or did not think that the Earth was flat, because remember that it is ancient people that both wrote scripture and they also were the audience of that same scripture.

Ancient people were the original recipients. God isn't going to reveal quantum mechanics to people who live in a pre-scientific time, that wouldn't make any sense to them.

Also, the original authors would have known what they were writing, so it might be strange that they would write about scientific matters that hadn't been discovered yet.

And that's why we don't see futuristic scientific concepts in the Bible. You never see passages about DNA or about the internet or about telescopes or anything like that, there's concepts had an existed yet, they weren't invented or discovered. Bacteria or viruses aren't in the Bible. Subatomic photons. All real things, but you won't find them in the Bible because God didn't give Moses future science to share. That's not what the Bible is about.

 

[Jipsah]

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
You could get several lessons from this one verse alone.

None of which have anything whatsoever to do with science.

 

[Jipsah]

It does matter whether ancient people did or did not think that the Earth was flat, because remember that it is ancient people that both wrote scripture and they also were the audience of that same scripture.

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with whether the earth is flat or not. If the Scripture says the earth is flat (which it does not), then the scripture is wrong.

Ancient people were the original recipients. God isn't going to reveal quantum mechanics to people who live in a pre-scientific time, that wouldn't make any sense to them.

JHe also didn't see fit to teach them astronomy or geology.

Also, the original authors would have known what they were writing, so it might be strange that they would write about scientific matters that hadn't been discovered yet.

And in fact, they didn't.

 

[Jipsah]

And you can find this cosmology depicted on a variety of artifacts. Such as the Babylonian map of the world, or the unfinished kuduru stone. Now obviously, in modern times, we find this uncomfortable and perhaps offensive.

No, just ridiculous.

But in ancient times, people simply described the world through their perspective.

And made stuff up...

 

[Job 33:6]

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with whether the earth is flat or not. If the Scripture says the earth is flat (which it does not), then the scripture is wrong.

JHe also didn't see fit to teach them astronomy or geology.

And in fact, they didn't.

Scripture is only right or wrong in what God intends it to teach. If the Bible were intended to be a science textbook, then indeed, it would be wrong. Remember what happened to the Catholic Church and their arguments for geocentrism, using Bible passages in their favor.

What they didn't understand is that the Bible is not a science textbook, and never intended to teach such things.

But make no mistake about it. The Catholic Church was indeed accurately reading and understanding the text. They just didn't know what to do with that information, and they treated it as if it were science.

The Bible says that the "land" is flat. Remember, in Hebrew there is no such word as "earth". Just as the Bible teaches a stationary land that does not move, in which the sun moves around.

Daniel 4:11 ESV
[11] The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth.

Psalm 104:5
He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved

1 Chronicles 16:30 ~ Tremble before him, all the earth; yes, the world is established; it shall never be moved.

1 Samueuel 2:8
He raises up the poor from the dust; he lifts the needy from the ash heap to make them sit with princes and inherit a seat of honor. For the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and on them he has set the world.

Job 28:24
For he looks to the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens.

Psalm 75:3
When the earth totters, and all its inhabitants, it is I who keep steady its pillars. Selah

Job 38:13-14 ESV
13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? 14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.

(Clay under a seal is flat, like a garment that you could grab the edges of, and shake^)

Ecclesiastes 1:5
The sun rises, and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises

2 Samuel 22:16
Then the channels of the sea were seen; the foundations of the world were laid bare, at the rebuke of the Lord, at the blast of the breath of his nostrils.

Joshua 10:13
And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in the midst of heaven and did not hurry to set for about a whole day.

The Bible says what it says. It is very plainly stated. Many many times. I could easily make a list twice as long. It's not a debate about what the passages say. The question is, what we do with the verses. They describe a stationary flat land, surrounded by water.

 

[Job 33:6]

No, just ridiculous.

And made stuff up...

The ancient Egyptians described the sky as an ocean. Is that made up?

Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place *forever and ever*, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.
Psalms 148:4‭-‬6

 

[rturner76]

I see no need to insert religious viewpoints - anyone's religious viewpoints - into the teaching of observable facts.

I agree, however, it may help the Evangelicals shut their mouths if they include it as a theory. They are so obsessed with preaching from the Bible in public school, we can shut them up by letting their evangelical opinion be heard. I don't agree with religion setting the agenda for public schools but if we let them spew their religious fervor on our 2rd graders there may be a possible way to let their extremely evangelical views to be shown and proved to be extremist.

 

[Jipsah]

The ancient Egyptians described the sky as an ocean. Is that made up?

Of course. Call it artistic license if you like, but still made up.

"Life is but a walking shadow, a poor player who struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more." Poetic, evocative, and in the sense it is meant, true. And made up.

 

[Jipsah]

I agree, however, it may help the Evangelicals shut their mouths if they include it as a theory.

But it isn't a theory, it's a statement of religious faith. It happens to be a faith I share, but that's of no significance.

They are so obsessed with preaching from the Bible in public school, we can shut them up by letting their evangelical opinion be heard.

Yeah, don't get me started on that. "Let's post the 10 Commandments in classroooms." Why? Because it's in the Bible. Oh, swell. That's gonna change lives, yessiree.

I don't agree with religion setting the agenda for public schools but if we let them spew their religious fervor on our 2rd graders there may be a possible way to let their extremely evangelical views to be shown and proved to be extremist.

I'm fed up with schools peddling what amount to religious precepts of any kind when they ought to be teaching objective fact. Reading, writing, and math, for a start.

 

[Job 33:6]

Of course. Call it artistic license if you like, but still made up.

"Life is but a walking shadow, a poor player who struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more." Poetic, evocative, and in the sense it is meant, true. And made up.

You don't think that this is awkward, given that the Bible says the same thing?

And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
Genesis 1:6

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
Genesis 7:11

the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,
Genesis 8:2

you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,
Psalms 104:3

Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place *forever and ever*, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.
Psalms 148:4‭-‬6

 

[Job 33:6]

And in fact, they didn't.

You think that the original authors of the Bible, didn't understand what they were writing about?

"Well I don't know what this firmament is in the sky, but let me just write it down anyway because that's what God said" ?

 

[rturner76]

Yeah, don't get me started on that. "Let's post the 10 Commandments in classroooms." Why? Because it's in the Bible. Oh, swell. That's gonna change lives, yessiree.

I think the Ten Commandments are appropriate as a reference to old law. However, considering how "law" has been implemented in the modern world, the Ten Commandments are not up to date. Still, I would consider the Ten Commandments an ancient representation of law. The ten representing the most simple representation of what it means to live as a human guided by God.

I'm fed up with schools peddling what amount to religious precepts of any kind when they ought to be teaching objective fact. Reading, writing, and math, for a start

Yeah, it's tough when we "teach" religion in a public school. Public school is secular and there is no room for religion. In public school, I would represent religion as the "Golden Rule" meaning "treat people as you want to be treated.", That rule is solid for private, public, or after school programs without taking a religious stance.

 

[Jipsah]

You think that the original authors of the Bible, didn't understand what they were writing about?

In what sense? Celestial mechanics? Not a clue.

"Well I don't know what this firmament is in the sky, but let me just write it down anyway because that's what God said" ?

What was that "firmament". A dome? There wasn't one, then or now.

 

[Platte]

I think the Ten Commandments are appropriate as a reference to old law. However, considering how "law" has been implemented in the modern world, the Ten Commandments are not up to date. Still, I would consider the Ten Commandments an ancient representation of law. The ten representing the most simple representation of what it means to live as a human guided by God.

Yeah, it's tough when we "teach" religion in a public school. Public school is secular and there is no room for religion. In public school, I would represent religion as the "Golden Rule" meaning "treat people as you want to be treated.", That rule is solid for private, public, or after school programs without taking a religious stance.

The Bible is definitely not scientific theory or anything attempting to prove Creation scientifically. So I do not think there should ever be any mention of creation in a science class.

The Bible however is a historical document and I don’t see any issue teaching creation in a history class. With the understanding that the Bible was a Jewish/Hebrew account of the historical past.

 

[Job 33:6]

What was that "firmament". A dome? There wasn't one, then or now.

Amos 9:6 NASB1995
[6] The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10 ESV

Job 22:14 LEB
[14] Thick clouds are a covering for him, so that he does not see;and he walks about on the dome of heaven.’

Ezekiel 1:22 CEB
[22] The shape above the heads of the creatures was a dome; it was like glittering ice stretched out over their heads.

Job 37:18 ESV
[18] Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a cast metal mirror?

It's your word against the Bible.

The biblical authors knew of what they spoke. And thus, they spoke of it.