Should atheists believe in the God of christianity if...

[DogmaHunter]

Hey hey allan david

What type of evidence would you like? What criteria would satisfy you?

Cheers

Something independently verifiable that points exclusively to the specific God you talk about, would be a good start.

 

[DogmaHunter]

How does one disprove God? Im interested, What have you got? Give me an example of 'proof' that would convince me?

That's what he is asking you.................................

What happens if i had an experience with God that effected me in such a way that His existance was certain?

Alien abductees had such experiences too, making them believe that they were abducted by aliens and anally probed.

 

[Spikey]

^^^^ Made my day that has

 

[Kaon]

It improves their well being, their families well being, their friends well being, the environments well being?

Now a quick answer one would say is yes but it doesn't. And I think this is where the discussion really begins. Because theres no question, even among atheists who were former christians they admit to missing or at least no longer having certain benefits that christianity gave them. So I don't think it's too hard to imagine it being actually true that it could not only improve their well being, but their families, their friends, the environment etc. And if this is the case, even if someone is 100% certain God doesn't exist. Shouldn't they still believe in God? Because its clearly what is best for them and everyone else. Or you can ask another question which is should an atheist remain an atheist even when this results in the worst possible suffering for them and every thing else in the universe?

I ask this because I believe that belief in God, being a christian does actually improve your well being. Which can lead to a trickle down effect across the world. Because atheists always try to say they want to behave in a way in which there is the least amount of suffering, if belief in God does lead to the least amount of suffering then shouldn't they believe?

It would still be a bit selfish to entertain a god because you can get stuff. The bible heroes went through serious trials as chosen elect of God. Satans give for allegiance pledges.

 

[Spikey]

It would still be a bit selfish to entertain a god because you can get stuff.

I was under the impression that Christianity is based upon that very concept. The stuff being.. An eternal existence at an ambient temperature.

 

[Kaon]

I was under the impression that Christianity is based upon that very concept. The stuff being.. An eternal existence at an ambient temperature.

That is a fantastic lie perpetuated since the garden. The world has always been under continual deception of the things of the Most High God because we have let charlatans infiltrate every possible system.

Christianity is a relationship; the world has been had. People follow the Most High God not because He gives them stuff, but because He is a Father to them.

 

[Spikey]

Christianity is a relationship

Yes.. Not a relationship that would interest me though.

People follow the Most High God not because He gives them stuff, but because He is a Father to them.

What sort of father threatens his children with eternal torture?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yes.. Not a relationship that would interest me though.



What sort of father threatens his children with eternal torture?

...God doesn't threaten His children with eternal torture; He threatens the children of the Devil with eternal destruction. There is a difference. Stop importing our modern day, Human Rights philosophy into the biblical paradigm, then you'll stop being confused.

 

[Kaon]

Yes.. Not a relationship that would interest me though.

I wasn't pitching anything.

What sort of father threatens his children with eternal torture?

This question occurs because one does not know who one is - through and through. Moreover, as I said before, because charlatans have infiltrated every system, the world has been had.

God doesn't threaten anyone with eternal torture; you have a choice to follow Him, or be on your own and subjected to everything else in existence - good and bad. The "hell" you experience, and its duration is up to you. If you trust yourself, or other gods then so be it. The Most High God doesn't demand worship unless you actually speak with your tongue that you want Him as your Father.

Then, you need to keep your word, and He will hold you to it.

 

[Spikey]

...God doesn't threaten His children with eternal torture; He threatens the children of the Devil with eternal destruction. There is a difference. Stop importing our modern day, Human Rights philosophy into the biblical paradigm, then you'll stop being confused.

I think the confusion comes from Christianity itself.. Depends upon who you talk to, and the particular version of it that they subscribe to.

I'm certainly not confused about the message, and try as you might you will never convince me that Christianity's message has any value in reality. Furthermore anyone who denies that the combination of the dangled carrot of eternal life and the threat of hell/separation/whatever does not contribute to their faith then they are liars.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I think the confusion comes from Christianity itself.. Depends upon who you talk to, and the particular version of it that they subscribe to.

I'm certainly not confused about the message, and try as you might you will never convince me that Christianity's message has any value in reality. Furthermore anyone who denies that the combination of the dangled carrot of eternal life and the threat of hell/separation/whatever does not contribute to their faith then they are liars.

Of course the dangled carrot is part and parcel of Christianity. Why would anyone need to deny that? On my part, if there wasn't a carrot or two, I'd have to question the purposefulness of the whole Christian paradigm, Bible and all. I mean, who really wants to work for free and forgo a paycheck, or to find out that one's choice of leisure is illegal? I mean, we are going to die.............................no really, we all are. And as Blaise Pascal would have said, "There's something mighty strange with those who don't give a flip about what's beyond the grave." I tend to agree with him.

 

[Spikey]

Of course the dangled carrot is part and parcel of Christianity. Why would anyone need to deny that? On my part, if there wasn't a carrot or two, I'd have to question the purposefulness of the whole Christian paradigm, Bible and all. I mean, who really wants to work for free and forgo a paycheck, or to find out that one's choice of leisure is illegal? I mean, we are going to die.............................no really, we all are. And as Blaise Pascal would have said, "There's something mighty strange with those who don't give a flip about what's beyond the grave." I tend to agree with him.

Thing is though.. You don't have to work, you don't have to be good, you don't have to do anything to receive the carrot, just believe. Someone has paid your debt.. What kind of message is that? Not a great one IMO.

The threat on the other hand scares you.. That's understandable.

 

[Ken-1122]

Hey hey

Wow!!!! u must really want a discussion with me. im not usually for jumping the gun on a discussion but your question is like a red rag to this bull.

How does one disprove God? Im interested, What have you got? Give me an example of 'proof' that would convince me?

You can't think of anything that would convince you? I'm sure there are plenty of Atheist who would answer your question the same way.

What happens if i had an experience with God that effected me in such a way that His existance was certain?Cheers

What would convince you that the voices in your head are not the voices of God, but from something convincing you it was the voice of God?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Thing is though.. You don't have to work, you don't have to be good, you don't have to do anything to receive the carrot, just believe. Someone has paid your debt.. What kind of message is that? Not a great one IMO.

That's all you have to do? Are you sure? I'm thinking that it might just be a tad bit more complicated than all that your local Christian denomination has been telling you..................................................of course, that part of it isn't your fault.

The threat on the other hand scares you.. That's understandable.

What threat?

 

[Spikey]

That's all you have to do? Are you sure? I'm thinking that it might just be a tad bit more complicated than all that your local Christian denomination has been telling you..................................................of course, that part of it isn't your fault.

Christianity should really get it's story straight.. Would really help confused people like me.

What threat?

If you can't be honest with yourself, having a conversation with me is of little value.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Christianity should really get it's story straight.. Would really help confused people like me.

Are you sure it's "confusion" that is holding you back from the Christian faith? OR is it something else? Maybe epistemological confusion? If so, welcome to the party, bud!

If you can't be honest with yourself, having a conversation with me is of little value.

Being honest with myself? Heavens to Betsy! Whatever are you talking about? I just told you that Christianity is basically of little worth without its carrots......... So, yeah!Of course there are carrots; only a fool would take up religious wandering just for the sheer 'fun' of it.

 

[jayem]

Hey hey my new friend

Well lets see.

Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.
Acts 4:12 | NIVJesus

They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Acts 16:31 | NI

He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time.
2 Timothy 1:9 | NI

Truly my soul finds rest in God;
my salvation comes from him.
Psalm 62:1 | NI

And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Acts 2:21 | NI

Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 | NIV

For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
Romans 10:10 | NIV



Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Mark 16:16 | NIV

What say you?

Cheers my dear

Thanks for responding. I’m familiar with the theology. What interests me is the mechanics of an afterlife. Paul in Corinthians mentions that after earthly death, the saved will actually live in houses and are given new, perfect bodies made by God and not by human hands. (Though aren’t our current bodies also made by God?) Though I’ve also read some theologians believe this is metaphorical. Saved souls exist as non-material spirit entities. Which do you believe? And when does active afterlife actually begin? Isn’t the traditional view that the soul sleeps with the body in the grave until being called into heaven? (But where do souls reside after cremation, or if the body is destroyed and there’s nothing to bury?) IIRC, the Bible isn’t clear on the fine points.

I really don’t mean to be fatuous or nitpicking. But these details bother me. The concept of life after death raises so many questions. I’m exactly what Paul called the Natural Man. (As duly noted in my avatar.) Things of the spirit and all things said to be supernatural are foreign to me. And where I think the idea of salvation is incorrect is right at the start: it’s inconceivable to me that there is any kind of soul, spirit, or immaterial entity, having consciousness and personality, which survives death of the body and brain. Neither salvation nor damnation are real because there is nothing after death to be saved or damned. I know many, many people believe differently. I get it. But going back to the OP (waaay back,) I cannot make myself believe sincerely in something I deeply, profoundly think is make-believe and wishful thinking.

OK, sorry for the long post. One Naural Man now signing off.

 

[Belk]

Hey hey allandavid.

In my fantasy world you and i are friends!
So you are giving up?

You cannot defend your position!

Cheers

One does not need to defend "I do not find your claims convincing."

 

[bhsmte]

It improves their well being, their families well being, their friends well being, the environments well being?

Now a quick answer one would say is yes but it doesn't. And I think this is where the discussion really begins. Because theres no question, even among atheists who were former christians they admit to missing or at least no longer having certain benefits that christianity gave them. So I don't think it's too hard to imagine it being actually true that it could not only improve their well being, but their families, their friends, the environment etc. And if this is the case, even if someone is 100% certain God doesn't exist. Shouldn't they still believe in God? Because its clearly what is best for them and everyone else. Or you can ask another question which is should an atheist remain an atheist even when this results in the worst possible suffering for them and every thing else in the universe?

I ask this because I believe that belief in God, being a christian does actually improve your well being. Which can lead to a trickle down effect across the world. Because atheists always try to say they want to behave in a way in which there is the least amount of suffering, if belief in God does lead to the least amount of suffering then shouldn't they believe?

All depends how one is wired and their specific psyche.

The mind is powerful and convincing ones self something is true, can have positive effects to some.

To others, believing in things for the sake of believing, is not something they can reconcile in their own mind, without adequate reasons to believe it is likely true.

At the end of the day, to eaches own.

 

[the iconoclast]

One does not need to defend "I do not find your claims convincing."

Hey hey

What can i do to convince you?

Cheers