Should atheists believe in the God of christianity if...

[Freodin]

^^^Atheistic love is a beautiful thing to watch.

As is Christians love.

I have followed this thread for a while now... and the main Christian protagonist has a very weird way to show his "love" towards unbelievers.

Perhaps he is sincerely incapable of understanding the responses he's getting... but considering the simplicity of some of these responses, I doubt it. Somehow he doesn't seem to be interesting in a real conversation... a two way exchange of opinions and views. If you cannot accept what other people tell you - not necessarily as "correct", but even as their personal view - then you are not talking with people... you are just talking at people. Or worse.

Perhaps I am just a little annoyed. He is constantly asking this question: what would you need to be convinced?
If I haven't missed anything here, I was the only one who stated that I have and can present a definite idea of what would "convince" me, and he flat out told me that, sorry, he was too busy to talk to me.

I can accept that as simple human behaviour... we all make mistakes... I just noticed that my post about the "genetics" influencing atheism was a little over the top.

But this is basic human behaviour. I'd expect a little more from a Christian, based on all the claims they make.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

As is Christians love.

I have followed this thread for a while now... and the main Christian protagonist has a very weird way to show his "love" towards unbelievers.

Perhaps he is sincerely incapable of understanding the responses he's getting... but considering the simplicity of some of these responses, I doubt it. Somehow he doesn't seem to be interesting in a real conversation... a two way exchange of opinions and views. If you cannot accept what other people tell you - not necessarily as "correct", but even as their personal view - then you are not talking with people... you are just talking at people. Or worse.

Perhaps I am just a little annoyed. He is constantly asking this question: what would you need to be convinced?
If I haven't missed anything here, I was the only one who stated that I have and can present a definite idea of what would "convince" me, and he flat out told me that, sorry, he was too busy to talk to me.

I can accept that as simple human behaviour... we all make mistakes... I just noticed that my post about the "genetics" influencing atheism was a little over the top.

But this is basic human behaviour. I'd expect a little more from a Christian, based on all the claims they make.

Hey hey hey now!

 

[DogmaHunter]

There's a very common Christian answer to all that.

Demons.

Yes, all that stuff is real. It just isn't true, as their version is.

It absolves them perfectly from the necessity to explain their disbelieve in other religions.

Yeah, I came accross that one as well quite a lot.
My question then instantly becomes: so how do you know that you aren't being fooled by Loki, Hades or Shaytan?

 

[the iconoclast]

What have I got? If you’re expecting me to provide proof that your idea of God does not exist;

Hey hey ken you diamond

Please excuse me, however i did not engage this discussion, you did my friend. I haven't presented anything to you yet, so had no need to expect anything from you. I like to ask questions and lots of them. I especially i like to ask questions when presented with statements.

Anyways ive got the proof i need to make a decision on whether God exists and He does. what proof have you got for your position? One example will do for the time being?

How bout this ill give you my testimony

I was in church many years ago, i was with 2 older ladies, we were praying together and i was having 'hands laid on me'. These women were Spirit filled.

All of a sudden i went into a vision. I had my eyes closed, slumped forward and in deep prayed. I was in a fixed state. I found myself soaring like a bird above the vast land. I could feel the wind and a sense of altitude - im scared of heights so i practically froze.

After what felt like minutes a mustered up the strength to look around and started to gain some form of comfort. I noticed an active volcano in the distance but did not think too much about it - dude im flying!!!

I started to realise i was heading straight for this spewing volcano and started to become concerned. I couldnt move my body or redirect my trajectory, I was trying to toss my body and do what ever i could. No good!

Just as i was about to hit the lava i cried out 'Jesus' (save me). Instantly i stopped yards from the lava, i can remember the sensation of heat and a sense of fatigue and relief. I was pulled up - like a beam or like invisible hands - and put back into the sky and continued to fly.

Once i started to fly again the 2nd last thing i saw, where hills amongst mountain tips with someform of ruins or old buildings.

Then suddenly 'my screen' was burned and i was presented with new surroundings. I saw 3 silhouettes of human like figures but the 2 outside ones were overlaped with the middle one - which was larger than the other 2.

There was fire everywhere. It seemed though i was standing in this fire with the 3. I could hear the crackle and sizzle of fire, all i could do was stare at the silhouette in front of me. I dont think i even blinked, it was speechless and frozen.

Then the fire started to simmer down and i 'came to'. The ladies looked concerned, their eyes were wide open with a look of shock. They asked me what happened and am i ok. I told them what happened casually and went back into the congression.

I was changed, i felt completely different in my mind. It felt like i had something in my heart and i knew how to orientate my heart to God.

I was given the Holy Spirit!!!

Before we examine some of the blatant Christian symbolism, what say you?

I can assure I have no interest in steering, you away from your theistic beliefs.

Why not? Why do you come to this forum?

I want you to come to Christ What do you want from me?

I was just taking the question you asked, I turned it around and applied it to yourself hoping for an answer from you.

Well... dont be in too much of a hurry, we need to examine things first. I presented my question as a starting point for you to think of. Lets have some fun and reason together my delicious new friend.

You see; the question you asked is a very difficult question to answer; akin to asking someone what they would do if they won the Billion dollar lottery. Yeah they might say I will do this or that, but if you actually won that much money , there would probably be a lot of things that take place that you aren’t anticipating right now.

Why has it never crossed your mind to ask yourself? How is God God similiar to winning a billion dollars?

To ask an atheist what would convince him of God, he may say “to see something” or to “hear something”, but if he did see or hear something perhaps he might think his mind was playing tricks on him. How is he supposed to know how he would react if he saw the impossible?

Why or how is it impossible?

But if he said nothing could convince him, he would look like a stubborn person who isn’t interested in the truth. That’s why I asked you the opposite question; so you could see the type of question you were asking, and to see how you would respond to such a question. Care to answer my question?

Why not, it will be fun to be on the defensive for a change.

Please consider my above testimony my dear

God is real to me. The Holy Spirit can fall onto me and i can get an intuition - into my heart - from God. I know this is God.

I was taught to pray as a young boy. Close or open your eyes, focus your heart to God. Its hard to describe, center your heart to God, focus on seeking Him (its like waiting, like standing at a friends door.)

So while this is happening start praying - what you must understand is prayer is communication with God.

Sing praise about Jesus in your thoughts and unharden your heart to Him. Lets him in. Invite Him in. If it doesnt happen the first time keep trying - it will happen if you have 100% trust.

Not all of us get struck down from our horses, YOU need to make the effort. You need to do something which invloves 100% trust. You need to knock, you need to seek God. There is a formula, it starts with faith.


I do go on anways, i have a direct line to God through the Holy Spirit. I can feel His presence, i see His creation and i know im conscious.

Probe away?

To continue, now we have established this fact. I have a line to God, i know His name and we have had a encounters.





What would convince me iam wrong about God.



You would have to sever my covenant with God by Jesus Christ through His Holy Spirit?

You would have to go back in time and stop me from having this experience?

There you go my friend ive flipped some cards over for you.

Im all yours

 

[the iconoclast]

It is explained in the very post you pulled that sentence from...

Hey hey my treasure Lets have some fun

You did make a statement my friend.

DogmaHunter - "Personally, I don't know that. But I do consider it extremely likely."

Now it is time to explain it.
So - personally - If you don't know that, how do you consider it extremely likely?

How can you be certain something when you dont know?

I don't know what confuses you about that.
All religions make the same type of claims: supernatural bits.

My friend Im going to have to introduce a statement tally soon.

How do all religions make the same type of claims?
What supernatural bits?

I don't think I said it can not be.
The thing is though, you can ask that question of every single religion and the answer would be the same. The point.

Hold up! Hold up!

Dogmahunter - "At best, only one religion is correct. So right out the gates, 99% of all supernatural claims are false / invented by definition."

Do you see what i see!?!

We can ask that about every religion yet you claim 99% are wrong straight of the bat. These 2 statements made by you are in direct conflict!

As you said, there can only be one correct religion and you are not Christian. Why do you not choose Christianity? Why will you not seek God?

Both claim supernatural things and deities.
And both do it in unfalsifiable manner.

How does islam make the same kind of claims that Hinduism makes?

Give me examples, not statements!

What do you want explained about the sentence "But, given the thousands of other gods that man has proposed throughout history, the evidence points in that direction. "

What is it called when you make a claim on probability?

Do you disagree that people obviously have a habbit of inventing deities and religions?

That would be kind of bizar. Surely you don't consider every religion correct - that would require you to believe in mutually contradicting claims.

Do you want me to give you my opinion on the matter?

My opinion and speculation

Possibly these people may have encountered fallen angels or they are man made. I have a relationship with God and have no need to of any other. Plus i do not agree with their core beliefs. Dont assume i have not done my study..

Greek myth sounds like that. So does viking and all others derived from Babylon.
Islam is a claim that a man met the arch angel gabriel - could have met a fallen angel.
Hinduism fits it. Millions of gods, not thousands.
Bhuddism is seeking nothingness.
Ancestor religion worships ancestors.
Rasta believe a king is Jehovah.

Christian and judaism, reconciliation to God from sin theough atonement. Very different

I have had my experience and got a result through the Christian formula. Therefore i must have that one right religion - remember what you said previously?

Surely you don't believe Shiva, Visjnoe and Thor exist?

I am yet to meet them and neither do i want to. I want Jesus!

That would mean that you think that the religions of those deities are incorrect, right?

I disagree with them my dear.

Islam claims to be the final revelation of judaism and Christianity. Jesus is the first and the last. I reject islam and have read parts of the koran - inaccuracies.

Bhuddism is a hindu offspring. It found a loop hole to reincarnation, do nothing.

Hinduism i believe is an offshoot of the Babylon mystery religion. Ie god of this and that.

Arrogance, is not a very flattering property.

It is not having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities. It is you and i having a debate, and you giving up. Your position - the atheist position - is weak!

Something independently verifiable that points exclusively to your god.
I just told you.

What have you got?
You're the theist. You're the one making the claims.

Independently verifiable. Verified by who. You or a scientist?

People have elevated science to be the highest measure of everything that happens - as if science is the only voice of right and wrong.

Don't ask me to tell you what evidence you should have.

What form of evidence would you like ie what type of evidence?

What criteria would satify ie What form would this evidence be?

Again, you're the one making the claim... You bring the evidence and explain how you feel it supports your religious claims and we'll go from there.

Just cut to the chase and bring me your BEST piece of evidence.
Make sure it is independently verifiable. I'm not interested in unverifiable anecdotes.

We need to set a criteria, I need an answer and not a statement.

Before i can answer we need to establish where you are coming from?

Alternatively, you could just answer the question........................

Patience my pet.

You don't "know". You believe.

As AaronRa put it once: "you don't know it, if you can't show it".

What can you show?

Who is this aaronra? You are the 2nd person to mention this man, why is he important?

Alien abductees had encounters with aliens in a way that they feel certain as well.
That doesn't convince you, why should your "testimony" convince me?

Well lets compare and see?

How bout this, ill give you my testimony

I was in church many years ago, i was with 2 older ladies, we were praying together and i was having 'hands laid on me'. These women were Spirit filled.

All of a sudden i went into a vision. I had my eyes closed, slumped forward and in deep prayed. I was in a fixed state. I found myself soaring like a bird above the vast land. I could feel the wind and a sense of altitude - im scared of heights so i practically froze.

After what felt like minutes a mustered up the strength to look around and started to gain some form of comfort. I noticed an active volcano in the distance but did not think too much about it - dude im flying!!!

I started to realise i was heading straight for this spewing volcano and started to become concerned. I couldnt move my body or redirect my trajectory, I was trying to toss my body and do what ever i could. No good!

Just as i was about to hit the lava i cried out 'Jesus' (save me). Instantly i stopped yards from the lava, i can remember the sensation of heat and a sense of fatigue and relief. I was pulled up - like a beam or like invisible hands - and put back into the sky and continued to fly.

Once i started to fly again the 2nd last thing i saw, where hills amongst mountain tips with someform of ruins or old buildings.

Then suddenly 'my screen' was burned and i was presented with new surroundings. I saw 3 silhouettes of human like figures but the 2 outside ones were overlaped with the middle one - which was larger than the other 2.

There was fire everywhere. It seemed though i was standing in this fire with the 3. I could hear the crackle and sizzle of fire, all i could do was stare at the silhouette in front of me. I dont think i even blinked, it was speechless and frozen.

Then the fire started to simmer down and i 'came to'. The ladies looked concerned, their eyes were wide open with a look of shock. They asked me what happened and am i ok. I told them what happened casually and went back into the congression.

I was changed, i felt completely different in my mind. It felt like i had something in my heart and i knew how to orientate my heart to God.

I was given the Holy Spirit!!!

Before we examine some of the blatant Christian symbolism, what say you?

What say you?

What would you think and do if that happened to you?

You're stubborn, allrgith.

Sure am. It is difficult to move or remove me from God. I dont think you comprehend how strong my faith in Jesus is or how strong my relationship with God is.

I have made a covenant with God and have given my life to Jesus - it is complete and absolute.

I am His and We want you.

Thor was real to Vikings.
Mars was real to Romans.
Zeus was real to Greeks.
Ra was real to Egyptians.
Allah is reall to muslims.
Visjnoe is real to Hindu's.
Alien anal probes are real to alien abductees.

How do you know this my dear? Have you met an ancient viking?

Were you in greece to witness zeus worship?

Did you see a roman pray to a statue of mars and ask how he felt?

Could you please supply a reference for alien probing, lets examine it together and compare?

How do I differentiate your claim of knowledge from a simple delusion?

Well lets set a criteria.

Delusion means an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.

What mental disorder could i suffer from?
How is my experience contradicted by reality?

What do you say to a hindu who claims to "know" that Visjnoe is real?

When presented by a statement i ask questions - notice how i do that with you alot - and then see where it goes ie contradictions or false information. Usually when you explore a subject you get to the core eventually.

I want to get to your core.

Or to an abductee who claims to "know" that aliens are abducting and anally probing humans?

Sounds horrible.

Well dont be shy. What have you got? Lets analyze it together?

facepalm

Ouch! Are you alright my dear!

Anyways you seem to have missed a question.

How do i disprove your existence?

Claimed alien abductees, surely do.

I don't. You probably don't either.

Actually, i do. Supply me a reference and we will explore it together.

Yet, alien abductees claim the same kind of "experience based knowledge" as you do.

Well lucky for you and i - my dear - i supplied my testimony in this post. Lets compare, show me how alien abductees claim the same kind of experience?

Maybe you should reflect on that for a few minutes and then see what you can learn from that in context of your own "experience based knowledge".

Ok.

- a few minutes go by -

Ive learnt nothing! What should i have learnt?

Cheers. Dont stop dh, this conversation is about to get interesting.

I very much look forward to your reply and expect you to give me something good.

Ps
Dont make it too long.

Bye bye my friend

 

[the iconoclast]

Hey hey bugs.... been a while

Lets start in this thread since some of my discussions are here.

Ps
Not open to any questions. This is a year long discussion between my dear friend bugs and i.

It isn't assumption, we have an established dataset that demonstrates this probability with a fairly high accuracy. What reason do we have to not think what we see locally will be seen throughout the universe?

Extrapolate - to extend the application of (a method or conclusion) to an unknown situation by assuming that existing trends will continue or similar methods will be applicable.

The essence of the word is to assume.

What is it called when you make a claim based on probability? I cant quite remember the word. Do you know which word fits?

Nope, I haven't divorced myself from anything but I can assess much of the evidence in support of a proposition for myself and I don't have to take someone's word as "Truth" -

See, you do have an authority as seen in the 2nd below hightlighted section. Somewhere you have to take someones words for it.

I can always make my own observations and come to my own conclusions based on my understanding.

What happens when you do not understand?

This is not to say I don't take others' word for things, because I do -

See my friend, you do have a faith. Took a bit to get it out of you but here we are!

often these things I take at face value are for things that have little to no impact on my outlook,

What is one of these things you take at face value, that has little impact on your outlook?

or that have followed a rigorous process where both that process and the data/observations are available to me if I wanted to make my own assessments.

Such as? Could you indulge me?

Usually I can see the evidence for myself, I don't have to take someone's word for it.

But you have also said in the past that you could be followed by magicians. Lets look at God, why cant you see evidence of God in Creation?

Why does it sound so horribly wrong for the earth to be Created and not meaningless?

Do you have an authority?

Im glad you asked. My authority is God! My salvation is Jesus, I believe the Bible is a history book and instruction inspired by God.

John 6:45
"It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

How do you assess what such an authority says for truth and/or accuracy?

Great question. Lets get some back and forth here, do not hesitate.

Jesus is the truth the light and the way, no one can come to the Father but through Him. God is light, love and truth.

Instantly we have a claim of truth, accuracy and family. So i see that Christianity offers the truth, it makes a claim.

Matthew 11:28
"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.



I only have one desire and i will never have it on earth. Im going to hug Jesus and i cannot wait to hug Him, and finally feel safe, and not have to worry anymore.

Anyways.

John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,




So if i receive Him and open my heart to God, and have 100% trust, i will become one of His. Once i become one of His he will give me His Holy Spirt.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

“I am telling you the truth,” replied Jesus, “that no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. A person is born physically of human parents, but is born spiritually of the Spirit. (John 3:5-6)

God poured out the Holy Spirit abundantly on us through Jesus Christ our Savior (Titus 3:6)

I have had experiences with the Holy Spirit and there are evidences of the Holy Spirit.

1 cor 12
The Holy Spirit is given to each of us in a special way. That is for the good of all.

8 To some people the Spirit gives a message of wisdom. To others the same Spirit gives a message of knowledge.

9 To others the same Spirit gives faith. To others that one Spirit gives gifts of healing.

10 To others he gives the power to do miracles. To others he gives the ability to prophesy.

To others he gives the ability to tell the spirits apart. To others he gives the ability to speak in different kinds of languages they had not known before.

And to still others he gives the ability to explain what was said in those languages.

11 All the gifts are produced by one and the same Spirit. He gives gifts to each person, just as he decides.

My is a faith gift - my faith in Jesus Christ is bedrock!!



Not all Christian's are in tune with the Holy Spirit but we all can be and so could you.

What would you do if you found a discrepancy in your authority?

Such as?

Ps
Please do not assume anything about me until you ask me!

Observable stars: trillions upon trillions (10^22)
Observable exoplanets that we can detect: ~ 3700 (in just our very local neighborhood alone)
Observable exoplanets that could support life: ~52 (or about 1 goldilocks exoplanet for every 10 stars we can measure)
Observable exoplanets that could support abiogenesis as well as life: 3 (in just our very local neighborhood)

and then...


Observable Gods: 0
Observed Angels: 0
Confirmed Miracles: 0
Observed religions claiming to be the one true religion: tens of thousands
Religions verified as the one true religion: 0

Where would you go to observe God?

Are there tens of thousands relgions that say the same thing?

What feeling of expectation and desire for a particular thing to happen do I have, and what assumptions am I using

Haha nice, thats exactly something i would say. Well i will not leave you hanging.


Lets look at your previous comment in relation.

Bugs - "You're right that to date we've only found two that this particular study applies exacting standards to, but to then declare that there are only two other life supporting and theoretically abiogenesis capable planets in this entire universe is disingenuous at best."

Do you have hope ie a feeling of expectation or desire for there to be more planets?

This is just ignorance and deliberate disrespect to state this.

Please do not be rash bugs. Remember, i have a form of respect for you.

I can respect the achievements of another human being without having to worship them as an authority.

Bugs - "This is not to say I don't take others' word for things, because I do"

You have never had the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a scientist or maybe the atheist bff, aaron ra?

What your false dichotomy fallacy here is that either you are without authority in some nihilistic fatuous existence, or you're a sycophant who just follows and vacuously regurgitates whatever your "Authority" dictates to you.

Which one are you?

Im a servant of Jesus Christ. I have made an everlasting covenant with Him and will obey His morality.

Bugs - "I don't have an authority."

What did you mean here?



Bugs - "But scientists say they've barely begun. And the number of exoworlds they estimate is astounding."

Why do you appeal to scientists authority here?

Those 2 statements conflict?

I don't believe in such polar absolutes, I have knowledge and can source relevant information, data, observations to support it,

How does that work when we consider the question, does God exist?

so if you can't have an intelligent conversation and address the points I make, then we can forget this and you can continue your mindless existence believing your false dichotomy fallacy to be accurate.

Where do i commit thiis false dichotomy fallacy?

You're talking in relation to "information" in a closed region of space, not the state of these particles popping in and out of existence. From Using virtual particles to get real random numbers : “While the evolution of a quantum function is deterministic, the outcome of a particular measurement on a state is not”.

That is still not random. All that means is we do not know the outcome.

Well, I don't know - I don't have the relevant knowledge and information to really have an opinion on that. I accept the most popular theory of the Big Bang as the best current explanation of how the Universe has come to be what it is now, and that follows all the well-understood laws we know about, no intervention there from what we can see...

Any old explanation will do as long as you have one?

prefer "honest", and why would that be unfortunate?

It is unfortunate. It is so because you are not methodical and being dishonest to the scientific method that you trust in. You trust in the scientific method do and the conclusions of scientists. It is not fair to the process.

You must know in order to exhaust all possibilities.

Are you certain that Mohammed is not Allah's final messenger and prophet?

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truthand the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

I have a relationship with Jesus and the Holy Spirit is the evidence ie the Spirit of God. I got it through the Christian method. Mohammad is a false prophet. His claim to have received Gods instruction from gabriel is unconvincing. Gabriel is a messenger not an instructor.

You seem to be overly literal -

Words have meanings, i interpret the words you write.

I still didn't say it was an absolute certainty and I didn't mean it to either, so if it makes it clearer for you, I'll rephrase it to say "Everything in this universe seems to follow the laws of Physics" - better?

That is better. If everything seems to follow the laws of physics, how do we have laws in a random and meaningless system?

Either way, I haven't observed it 'not' following the laws of Physics, so am fairly certain it won't be demonstrated false, but if it does then I'll reassess my position accordingly.

Would you say that it is 100% certain if you fall into a body of water you will become wet?

and this is an honest position, don't you agree?

Agree that it is honest?

Your description is not entirely accurate, but only insofar as you are unbelievably literal to the point of unreasonableness - for example, I'm absolutely certain I exist and I'm also absolutely certain I'm not an omnicient God too.

Words have meanings, i interpret the words you write.

So we have an absolute certainty. You exist!

Is there only one absolute certainty, surely there must be more.

Yah!!!! Finally i got one out of you. There you have it, there is something in the universe which is 100% certain. You exist!!!!!

We have established that we can acheive 100%. I remember you suggesting it was not possible?

I can tentatively accept a subject matter expert/authority, but no authority is an unquestionable authority.

Why not?

I'm unsure insofar as it would be impossible to be 100% certain about everything and we are fallible beings,

Who said everything? We can be certain about some things and absolutely certain of some other things too.

we can see things that weren't there, we can remember things incorrectly, we can be fooled and are prone to misunderstanding things we witness first hand.

Could this be the case with you in relation to the question does God exist? You didnt see something, your remembered something wrong, you were fooled to disbelieve and you are prone to misunderstanding?

I hope I'll always be searching,

When you discard God you will always be searching. Once you find God, the search will be over.

Have you considered your search is fod God?

I seek knowledge and understanding of the universe around me, so if I have nothing to look for or learn then it would be a very boring existence indeed.

Why do you seek understanding? What conclusion donyou seek? What are you looking for?

So tell me, are you absolutely certain?

100% trust. Iam His

Do you have an unquestionable Authority?

I do. It is Him.

Are you 100% sure about everything?

Im 100% certain there is a God and it is the Christian God.

Will everything you know now be forever unchanged?

Life is a journey and my journey with God on earth has not come to an end. I will serve my Lord until it is time for me to leave.

I will endure what ever life throws at me, life will change me ie my body and my environment, it will not change my relationship with God.

Will you have nothing to search for one day, or do you not search now

When it comes to God, my search stopped decades ago. Now i search for a girlfriend, good company and someone to jam with.

Possibly the same thing that's stopping you from coming to Shiva, or Thor, or Allah, etc. What's stopping you from coming to those Gods?

Here is why?

How bout this, ill give you my testimony

I was in church many years ago, i was with 2 older ladies, we were praying together and i was having 'hands laid on me'. These women were Spirit filled.

All of a sudden i went into a vision. I had my eyes closed, slumped forward and in deep prayed. I was in a fixed state. I found myself soaring like a bird above the vast land. I could feel the wind and a sense of altitude - im scared of heights so i practically froze.

After what felt like minutes a mustered up the strength to look around and started to gain some form of comfort. I noticed an active volcano in the distance but did not think too much about it - dude im flying!!!

I started to realise i was heading straight for this spewing volcano and started to become concerned. I couldnt move my body or redirect my trajectory, I was trying to toss my body and do what ever i could. No good!

Just as i was about to hit the lava i cried out 'Jesus' (save me). Instantly i stopped yards from the lava, i can remember the sensation of heat and a sense of fatigue and relief. I was pulled up - like a beam or like invisible hands - and put back into the sky and continued to fly.

Once i started to fly again the 2nd last thing i saw, where hills amongst mountain tips with someform of ruins or old buildings.

Then suddenly 'my screen' was burned and i was presented with new surroundings. I saw 3 silhouettes of human like figures but the 2 outside ones were overlaped with the middle one - which was larger than the other 2.

There was fire everywhere. It seemed though i was standing in this fire with the 3. I could hear the crackle and sizzle of fire, all i could do was stare at the silhouette in front of me. I dont think i even blinked, it was speechless and frozen.

Then the fire started to simmer down and i 'came to'. The ladies looked concerned, their eyes were wide open with a look of shock. They asked me what happened and am i ok. I told them what happened casually and went back into the congression.

I was changed, i felt completely different in my mind. It felt like i had something in my heart and i knew how to orientate my heart to God.

I was given the Holy Spirit!!!



I have had an experience with God. Do you not come to Christ because you had an experience with atheism?

Thanks
Here we go again

 

[the iconoclast]

@DogmaHunter, icon and @Bugeyedcreepy in rhe same thread.

Like old times. Im a lucky guy

 

[Skreeper]

I was in church many years ago, i was with 2 older ladies, we were praying together and i was having 'hands laid on me'. These women were Spirit filled.

All of a sudden i went into a vision. I had my eyes closed, slumped forward and in deep prayed. I was in a fixed state. I found myself soaring like a bird above the vast land. I could feel the wind and a sense of altitude - im scared of heights so i practically froze.

After what felt like minutes a mustered up the strength to look around and started to gain some form of comfort. I noticed an active volcano in the distance but did not think too much about it - dude im flying!!!

I started to realise i was heading straight for this spewing volcano and started to become concerned. I couldnt move my body or redirect my trajectory, I was trying to toss my body and do what ever i could. No good!

Just as i was about to hit the lava i cried out 'Jesus' (save me). Instantly i stopped yards from the lava, i can remember the sensation of heat and a sense of fatigue and relief. I was pulled up - like a beam or like invisible hands - and put back into the sky and continued to fly.

Once i started to fly again the 2nd last thing i saw, where hills amongst mountain tips with someform of ruins or old buildings.

Then suddenly 'my screen' was burned and i was presented with new surroundings. I saw 3 silhouettes of human like figures but the 2 outside ones were overlaped with the middle one - which was larger than the other 2.

There was fire everywhere. It seemed though i was standing in this fire with the 3. I could hear the crackle and sizzle of fire, all i could do was stare at the silhouette in front of me. I dont think i even blinked, it was speechless and frozen.

Then the fire started to simmer down and i 'came to'. The ladies looked concerned, their eyes were wide open with a look of shock. They asked me what happened and am i ok. I told them what happened casually and went back into the congression.

I was changed, i felt completely different in my mind. It felt like i had something in my heart and i knew how to orientate my heart to God.

I was given the Holy Spirit!!!

What an interesting story, here are some possible explanations:

1) You were exposed to a substance that induced an hallucination

2)You are lying

3)You had some form of seizure

4)The creator of the universe gave you a really wacky vision

5)We have no way of telling what caused your experience

There are many more possible explanations but I think these will do for now.

Which of these explanations has the fewest assumptions?

How did you confirm that your explanation is actually the right one?

 

[Freodin]

I was given the Holy Spirit!!!

If you read the original story from the Bible, about the disciples and them getting the "Holy Spirit", you will notice that the people started to wonder: "How do they know what to say to us so that we can understand them?"

When "Christians" like you come around, I always wonder: how can people claim to have this "Holy Spirit"... and show so little understanding of the people they are talking to?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Hey hey my treasure Lets have some fun

You did make a statement my friend.

DogmaHunter - "Personally, I don't know that. But I do consider it extremely likely."

Now it is time to explain it.
So - personally - If you don't know that, how do you consider it extremely likely?

How can you be certain something when you dont know?

I don't know what dictionary you are using, but over here in my universe, when I say "i consider it likely", I am not expressing any kind of certainty.

My friend Im going to have to introduce a statement tally soon.
How do all religions make the same type of claims?
What supernatural bits?

What don't you understand about the word "supernatural"?

Hold up! Hold up!

Dogmahunter - "At best, only one religion is correct. So right out the gates, 99% of all supernatural claims are false / invented by definition."

Do you see what i see!?!

We can ask that about every religion yet you claim 99% are wrong straight of the bat. These 2 statements made by you are in direct conflict!

They are not.
At best, one religion is correct (since they are mutually exclusive).
Meaning that at best, all religions, except one, are incorrect.

But they can ALL be wrong as well.
Not sure how this confuses you...

As you said, there can only be one correct religion and you are not Christian.

at best there can be only one correct.
You need to learn how to read less selectively.
If you leave out "at best", then the entire statement changes in content.

Why do you not choose Christianity? Why will you not seek God?

For the same reason that I do not seek for undetectable 7-headed dragons in my garage.
I have no reason to.

How does islam make the same kind of claims that Hinduism makes?
Give me examples, not statements!

They both claim deities (allah, visjnoe, shiva, etc).
And in both cases the claims that these deities exist, are unfalsifiable claims.

You are not aware that deities in religion are unfalsifiable supernatural figures?

What is it called when you make a claim on probability?

I'm using probabilities to express probabilistic expectations.
Why is that a problem?

Do you want me to give you my opinion on the matter?
My opinion and speculation
Possibly these people may have encountered fallen angels or they are man made.

So your answer is "yes": you know and understand that humans are quite capable of inventing religions out of their imagination.

I have a relationship with God and have no need to of any other. Plus i do not agree with their core beliefs. Dont assume i have not done my study..

Greek myth sounds like that. So does viking and all others derived from Babylon.
Islam is a claim that a man met the arch angel gabriel - could have met a fallen angel.

So, how do you know that the deity that you call God, isn't such a "fallen angel" or "demon"?
Obviously, you seem of the opinion that humans can easily be fooled by such. Why can't you be one of them?

And that's off course, assuming that this deity doesn't just exist in your imagination alone, which seems a lot more likely from my perspective.

Hinduism fits it. Millions of gods, not thousands.
Bhuddism is seeking nothingness.
Ancestor religion worships ancestors.
Rasta believe a king is Jehovah.

Christian and judaism, reconciliation to God from sin theough atonement. Very different

Every religion is unique and different, or they wouldn't be a seperate religion.
To state that your religion has unique characteristics is not an argument. Every religion has unique characteristics.

That you value the specific characteristics of your specific religion, is no more or less then confirmation bias.

I have had my experience and got a result through the Christian formula. Therefore i must have that one right religion - remember what you said previously?

Alien abductees had experiences with alien abduction and anal probing.
Tom Cruise had experiences with his inner thetan.
Hindu's had experiences with one or several of their many gods.
Ancient Romans had experiences with Mars on the battle field.

I remember what I said.
I also remember what I said concerning "they all make the same kind of claims". Do you remember what I said? It seems to me that you only remember that which you feel you can use in favor of your position - to the point of even leaving out certain crucial words of my statements and then completely misrepresent what I actually said...

I disagree with them my dear.

Islam claims to be the final revelation of judaism and Christianity. Jesus is the first and the last. I reject islam and have read parts of the koran - inaccuracies.

Bhuddism is a hindu offspring. It found a loop hole to reincarnation, do nothing.

Hinduism i believe is an offshoot of the Babylon mystery religion. Ie god of this and that.

So much trouble, just to avoid the obvious.
Anyway, so yes, you disagree with these religions.

So let's go the extra mile here.
You and I are in agreement about 99% of religions out there.
Let's say there are 3000 religions.
You don't believe in 2999 of them.
I go just one religion further. I don't believe in 3000 of them.

So really, you're practically an atheist ;-)

The thing is though.... you undestand how it is to not believe in a god, because you don't believe in hundreds, thousands of gods that you could believe in - and that indeed many people in fact DO believe in.

So really you shouldn't have that much trouble understanding my position.

It is not having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities. It is you and i having a debate, and you giving up. Your position - the atheist position - is weak!

Independently verifiable. Verified by who. You or a scientist?

Anyone, on principle.
"independently" verifiable. The "independently" refers to "free from the religion".
As in "unbiased". As in "without predetermining the outcome". As in "without providing the answer before asking the question".

In summary: sort of the very opposite of what theist apologists usually ask us to do... which is to start with assuming that a god exists to then be able to conclude that a god exists.

People have elevated science to be the highest measure of everything that happens - as if science is the only voice of right and wrong.

Science is demonstrably the best tool we have at our disposal to differntiate that which is accurate from that which is inaccurate, when it comes to questions/claims about phenomena of reality, or indeed reality itself.

Off course, for some hypothesis to be scientifically researchable, it has to be independently testable and falsifiable in some way. Which religious claims notoriously aren't. For me, this is a big problem. Because I have no way to distinguish a true unfalsifiable claim from a false unfalsifiable claim.


Unfalsifiable claims CAN be true. But the thing is: how would you know?

What form of evidence would you like ie what type of evidence?
What criteria would satify ie What form would this evidence be?

I already told you: independent verifiability and which points exclusively to a deity (and I'm talking a generic deity here - not even the deity you happen to worship, which would require more specific evidence).

We need to set a criteria, I need an answer and not a statement.
Before i can answer we need to establish where you are coming from?

I'm coming from the perspective that "faith" (in the religious sense) equals "gullibility".
I'm coming from the perspective that I don't just believe things at face value. Especially not when it concerns extra-ordinary outlandish things.

If you tell me that you saw a great movie with Jessica Alba yesterday, i'ld have no problem with that at face value.

If you then go on to tell me that she crawled out of the TV, made love to you and then returned into the TV to finish the movie - then your anecdote will not suffice.

What can you show?
Who is this aaronra? You are the 2nd person to mention this man, why is he important?

He's just some atheist activist (and biologist?) youtuber who makes videos about belief, burden of proof, reason, etc.



I'll stop here for now.
Your post is ginormous.

 

[quatona]

@DogmaHunter, icon and @Bugeyedcreepy in rhe same thread.

Like old times. Im a lucky guy

Hey inconoclast, I´m glad you have decided to you reveal your true colours in your user-title. Not that I ever believed you that you were interested in an actual conversation - your confrontational attitude had always been too obvious.
Good luck with that.

 

[quatona]

dp

 

[Ken-1122]

Hey hey ken you diamond

Please excuse me, however i did not engage this discussion, you did my friend. I haven't presented anything to you yet, so had no need to expect anything from you. I like to ask questions and lots of them. I especially i like to ask questions when presented with statements.

Anyways ive got the proof i need to make a decision on whether God exists and He does. what proof have you got for your position? One example will do for the time being?

How bout this ill give you my testimony

I was in church many years ago, i was with 2 older ladies, we were praying together and i was having 'hands laid on me'. These women were Spirit filled.

All of a sudden i went into a vision. I had my eyes closed, slumped forward and in deep prayed. I was in a fixed state. I found myself soaring like a bird above the vast land. I could feel the wind and a sense of altitude - im scared of heights so i practically froze.

After what felt like minutes a mustered up the strength to look around and started to gain some form of comfort. I noticed an active volcano in the distance but did not think too much about it - dude im flying!!!

I started to realise i was heading straight for this spewing volcano and started to become concerned. I couldnt move my body or redirect my trajectory, I was trying to toss my body and do what ever i could. No good!

Just as i was about to hit the lava i cried out 'Jesus' (save me). Instantly i stopped yards from the lava, i can remember the sensation of heat and a sense of fatigue and relief. I was pulled up - like a beam or like invisible hands - and put back into the sky and continued to fly.

Once i started to fly again the 2nd last thing i saw, where hills amongst mountain tips with someform of ruins or old buildings.

Then suddenly 'my screen' was burned and i was presented with new surroundings. I saw 3 silhouettes of human like figures but the 2 outside ones were overlaped with the middle one - which was larger than the other 2.

There was fire everywhere. It seemed though i was standing in this fire with the 3. I could hear the crackle and sizzle of fire, all i could do was stare at the silhouette in front of me. I dont think i even blinked, it was speechless and frozen.

Then the fire started to simmer down and i 'came to'. The ladies looked concerned, their eyes were wide open with a look of shock. They asked me what happened and am i ok. I told them what happened casually and went back into the congression.

I was changed, i felt completely different in my mind. It felt like i had something in my heart and i knew how to orientate my heart to God.

I was given the Holy Spirit!!!

Before we examine some of the blatant Christian symbolism, what say you?

That was an interesting story; I don’t quite know what to make of it, however I do believe you are convinced your experience was what you said it was.

As for as myself; my claim is that I don’t believe in what you or anyone else call God; meaning whatever claims you make of him I don’t believe they are true. Example; Rastafarians worship Halle Selassie (former President of Ethiopia) the way Christians worship Jesus. There is a sect of Hinduism that believes Kumari as God. (Halle Selassie died in the 1970’s, Jesus died over 2000 years ago, but Kumari still lives today) There are people who worship Nature, the Sun, many things and people who are as real as you and I! But I see Halle, Kumari and Jesus as people, the Sun as a star, and Nature as our environment. So though I recognize what some may call God does exist, because I don’t call it God, I am atheist towards their religion. In theory I could believe Allah, and Yahweh exist; but as long as I don’t believe the claims believers make of them; (perhaps I may consider them an advanced evolved being from another planet) as long as I don’t call them God I am atheist towards those religions as well. Does this make sense to you?

Why not? Why do you come to this forum?

I want you to come to Christ What do you want from me?

Of course; that’s your job! As a Christian you are supposed to proselytize as a former Christian myself I know what you’re going through. I am here to clear up some of the misunderstandings many theists have about atheists. As far as you leaving your religion; I couldn’t care less.

Why or how is it impossible?

By definition; if it works outside the laws of nature it’s impossible. You believe God works outside the laws of nature don’t cha?

What would convince me iam wrong about God.

You would have to sever my covenant with God by Jesus Christ through His Holy Spirit?

You would have to go back in time and stop me from having this experience?

There you go my friend ive flipped some cards over for you.

Im all yours

Thanks for answering the question. It appears your belief is based on having a personal experience. Obviously I’ve never had a personal experience that convinced me of God though if I did I probably wouldn’t have left Christianity in the first place. I would say if God did exist, and he was all knowing; he would know what would convince me even though I don’t really know myself.

 

[the iconoclast]

Hey inconoclast, I´m glad you have decided to you reveal your true colours in your user-title.

Hey hey my dear

I got the whole defeated thing from kylie. She defeated dad. No good?

Not that I ever believed you that you were interested in an actual conversation - your confrontational attitude had always been too obvious.

Are you non confrontational?

Good luck with that.

Why thank you.

Cheers

 

[the iconoclast]

If you read the original story from the Bible, about the disciples and them getting the "Holy Spirit", you will notice that the people started to wonder: "How do they know what to say to us so that we can understand them?"

When "Christians" like you come around, I always wonder: how can people claim to have this "Holy Spirit"... and show so little understanding of the people they are talking to?

Hey hey my dear

Patience my pet. When the time is right i will come looking for you.

Cheers

 

[the iconoclast]

What an interesting story, here are some possible explanations:

1) You were exposed to a substance that induced an hallucination

2)You are lying

3)You had some form of seizure

4)The creator of the universe gave you a really wacky vision

5)We have no way of telling what caused your experience

There are many more possible explanations but I think these will do for now.

Which of these explanations has the fewest assumptions?

How did you confirm that your explanation is actually the right one?

Hey hey my dear.

Im not open to new conversations atm. Dont worry we will have time in the future.

I love you.

Cheers

 

[quatona]

Hey hey my dear

I got the whole defeated thing from kylie. She defeated dad. No good?

I don´t really care where you got it from and how you pick your role models.
It´s your behaviour, no matter whom you channel.

Are you non confrontational?

Generally, I think of these chats as conversations, not as battles.
I can only hope it shows, but I understand that such a conversation can not be had with you.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Primarily out of boredom, i'll continue with the rest of your ginormous post.

Well lets compare and see?

How bout this, ill give you my testimony

I was in church many years ago, i was with 2 older ladies, we were praying together and i was having 'hands laid on me'. These women were Spirit filled.

All of a sudden i went into a vision. I had my eyes closed, slumped forward and in deep prayed. I was in a fixed state. I found myself soaring like a bird above the vast land. I could feel the wind and a sense of altitude - im scared of heights so i practically froze.

After what felt like minutes a mustered up the strength to look around and started to gain some form of comfort. I noticed an active volcano in the distance but did not think too much about it - dude im flying!!!

I started to realise i was heading straight for this spewing volcano and started to become concerned. I couldnt move my body or redirect my trajectory, I was trying to toss my body and do what ever i could. No good!

Just as i was about to hit the lava i cried out 'Jesus' (save me). Instantly i stopped yards from the lava, i can remember the sensation of heat and a sense of fatigue and relief. I was pulled up - like a beam or like invisible hands - and put back into the sky and continued to fly.

Once i started to fly again the 2nd last thing i saw, where hills amongst mountain tips with someform of ruins or old buildings.

Then suddenly 'my screen' was burned and i was presented with new surroundings. I saw 3 silhouettes of human like figures but the 2 outside ones were overlaped with the middle one - which was larger than the other 2.

There was fire everywhere. It seemed though i was standing in this fire with the 3. I could hear the crackle and sizzle of fire, all i could do was stare at the silhouette in front of me. I dont think i even blinked, it was speechless and frozen.

Then the fire started to simmer down and i 'came to'. The ladies looked concerned, their eyes were wide open with a look of shock. They asked me what happened and am i ok. I told them what happened casually and went back into the congression.

I was changed, i felt completely different in my mind. It felt like i had something in my heart and i knew how to orientate my heart to God.

I was given the Holy Spirit!!!

Before we examine some of the blatant Christian symbolism, what say you?

What say you?

What would you think and do if that happened to you?

I'ld say that obviously, nothing actually happened in reality and it was all in your head.
And that your anecdote is about as convincing as Tom Cruise's "testimony" of experiencing his inner thetan or alien abductees experiencing anal probing while on an alien spaceship in orbit of alpha centauri.

Sure am. It is difficult to move or remove me from God. I dont think you comprehend how strong my faith in Jesus is or how strong my relationship with God is.

That you believe something "really hard", doesn't make it true.
I'm guess you aren't very impressed by islamic suicide bombers, right?
They believe SO strongly, they happily end their own life thinking they are pleasing their god. Belief doesn't get much stronger then being willing to engage in the ultimate sacrifice.

Clearly, the "strength" of faith does nothing for the credibility of the claims being believed...

How do you know this my dear? Have you met an ancient viking?

By definition of the word "believe": to accept as true.
Vikings believed in the norse gods. They accepted it as true.

Were you in greece to witness zeus worship?

Did you see a roman pray to a statue of mars and ask how he felt?

They wrote it down.

Could you please supply a reference for alien probing, lets examine it together and compare?

Do your own homework.
If you are seriously going to stand there and claim that people claiming to have been abducted and probed by aliens do not exist, I'm just going to point and laugh, honestly.

Well lets set a criteria.

Delusion means an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.

Not really. It doesn't need to have contradicting data. Nore does it have to be in context of a mental disorder.

What mental disorder could i suffer from?

Honestly, your little anecdote above, sounds a lot like some kind of hallucination.

When presented by a statement i ask questions - notice how i do that with you alot - and then see where it goes ie contradictions or false information. Usually when you explore a subject you get to the core eventually.

Nice job dodging the question and being vague.
I submit that any objection you could/would raise against that hindu's claim, would work just as well concerning your religious claims.

Well dont be shy. What have you got? Lets analyze it together?

They have the exact same as you: unverifiable anecdotes and "personal experiences", which also aren't verifiable.

The point. You're missing it.

Ouch! Are you alright my dear!
Anyways you seem to have missed a question.
How do i disprove your existence?

I didn't miss the question. My response was a facepalm, because your question is facepalmingly stupid. Asking to prove a negative an all that....

Actually, i do. Supply me a reference and we will explore it together.

You believe the claims of alien abductees? You believe aliens are visiting earth and abducting humans to perform weird experiments on them?

You'll believe just about anything it seems.

Well lucky for you and i - my dear - i supplied my testimony in this post.

Yes, it was indistinguishable from hallucination, day dreaming, imagination,...

Lets compare, show me how alien abductees claim the same kind of experience?

I already compared it: their anecdotes are not verifiable and can only be taken at face value. The same goes for your anecdote.

Ok.

- a few minutes go by -

Ive learnt nothing!

Colour me unsurprised.

What should i have learnt?

That mere unverifiable "testimony", is utterly worthless as a foundation to believe something, or as "evidence" to justify believing something.

Because otherwise, you end up having to believe whatever anyone tells you.
That is, if you are consistent in your standard. But you aren't off course. You hold a double standard when it comes to such "evidence".

You'll accept any and all anecdotes as long as they are supportive of your a priori beliefs. When they aren't, then you dismiss them.

It's blatant confimation bias and dishonestly selective.

Cheers. Dont stop dh, this conversation is about to get interesting.

I don't think it's interesting at all, actually.
I actually feel dumber as a result of having this conversation.
I wonder why I'm even engaging.

I very much look forward to your reply and expect you to give me something good.

No matter what I give you, it will never be "good" to your taste, unless I start agreeing with your nonsense.

Ps
Dont make it too long.

Says the guy who posted a post so huge, I had to break it down in two post to actually reply.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Hey hey my dear.

Im not open to new conversations atm. Dont worry we will have time in the future.

I love you.

Cheers

Dishonest dodging.

I guess you're in a conversation with me and that you are open to "continueing" existing discussions, right?

I think I'll borrow @Skreeper 's questions then.


What an interesting story, here are some possible explanations:

1) You were exposed to a substance that induced an hallucination

2)You are lying

3)You had some form of seizure

4)The creator of the universe gave you a really wacky vision

5)We have no way of telling what caused your experience

There are many more possible explanations but I think these will do for now.

Which of these explanations has the fewest assumptions?

How did you confirm that your explanation is actually the right one?

So, will you answer it now, or will you find another excuse to avoid answering?

 

[the iconoclast]

That was an interesting story;

Hey hey my new friend ken

Thank you, dude you should have been there It was an interesting experience, one that is life changing. The cut is deep and the scar never healed!

I don’t quite know what to make of it,

Lucky for the both of us. I do!

however I do believe you are convinced your experience was what you said it was.

100% convinced beyond any doubt. In fact, i no longer believe in God, i know Him. Yahhh!!!!

As for as myself; my claim is that I don’t believe in what you or anyone else call God; meaning whatever claims you make of him I don’t believe they are true.

Why do you believe they are not true? Why would i lie about such a thing?
What benefit would it be - to me - to manipulate you?

Example; Rastafarians worship Halle Selassie (former President of Ethiopia) the way Christians worship Jesus.

How is it the same way Christians worship Jesus?

There is a sect of Hinduism that believes Kumari as God. (Halle Selassie died in the 1970’s, Jesus died over 2000 years ago, but Kumari still lives today)

Why does this statement make you question Jesus?

Kumari is the tradition of worshipping young pre-pubescent girls as manifestations of the divine female energy or devi in Hindu religious traditions

There are people who worship Nature, the Sun, many things and people who are as real as you and I!

Please excuse me. What point are you trying to make here?

But I see Halle, Kumari and Jesus as people, the Sun as a star, and Nature as our environment.

I see Jesus as the son of God. I see halle as the former president of Ethiopia, i dont see the kumari tradition of worshipping young pre-pubescent girls as manifestations of the divine female energy or devi in Hindu religious traditions. Ask?

I see the sun as a remote incandescent body. I see nature as the phenomena of the physical world collectively, including plants, animals, the landscape, and other features and products of the earth, as opposed to humans or human creations.

So though I recognize what some may call God does exist, because I don’t call it God,

What do you call it?

I am atheist towards their religion. In theory I could believe Allah, and Yahweh exist; but as long as I don’t believe the claims believers make of them; (perhaps I may consider them an advanced evolved being from another planet) as long as I don’t call them God I am atheist towards those religions as well.

Does this make sense to you?

Please excuse me. Not really, i think we need more detail and explanation?

Explain as much as you can my friend.

Of course; that’s your job!

Matthew 24:14
“And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.”

Psalms 96:3
“Declare His glory among the nations, His wonders among all peoples.”

Matthew 28:19-20
“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Bro, your missing out!!

As a Christian you are supposed to proselytize as a former Christian myself I know what you’re going through.

What am i going through?

I am here to clear up some of the misunderstandings many theists have about atheists. As far as you leaving your religion; I couldn’t care less.

Why not?

You care enough to engage with me, what do you want from me?

By definition; if it works outside the laws of nature it’s impossible. You believe God works outside the laws of nature don’t cha?

Hahaha nice, nice framing love it.

Lets back track

Kenny - "To ask an atheist what would convince him of God, he may say “to see something” or to “hear something”, but if he did see or hear something perhaps he might think his mind was playing tricks on him. How is he supposed to know how he would react if he saw the impossible?"

Icon - "Why or how is it impossible?"

Kenny - "By definition; if it works outside the laws of nature it’s impossible. You believe God works outside the laws of nature don’t cha?"



So God is impossible because He works outside the laws of nature? Why?

Thanks for answering the question.

You are most welcome kind sir.

It appears your belief is based on having a personal experience.

And not just that one, but that was the starting point to having the Holy Spirit.

Obviously I’ve never had a personal experience that convinced me of God though if I did I probably wouldn’t have left Christianity in the first place.

Im curious. Why did you reject Jesus?

I would say if God did exist, and he was all knowing; he would know what would convince me even though I don’t really know myself.

So you do not need to seek a relationship with God, God must come to you on your terms?

What happens if that is not how it works?

Cheers my dear. Looking forward to your reply