Senate Republicans try to head off attempts to include women in the military draft

Should women be forced to go to war?


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TLK Valentine

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Woman were not drafted because they are generally physically inferior to men.

Yes, and they were also considered mentally and emotionally inferior.

But I am fine with drafting women, just not putting them in combat roles.

Sounds like you approve of the Democrats' plan to update the Selective Service Act. That's great.

But the role of women in combat is growing. Consider the following:

New Rules for Women in Combat

There aren’t traditional front lines in war any longer. The past ten years of constant war has taught us that. Unlike in conflicts past, when there was a fairly clear delineation between territory contested by combat and territory thought to be “safe,” the nature of counterinsurgency has shown us that the enemy can be – and often is – anywhere. A gaggle of Taliban fighters is, in fact, more likely to attack a supply convoy than a patrol of infantry fighters, because they understand that the warriors on the convoy aren’t as highly trained as the infantrymen.

tl;dr -- barring women from "combat roles" makes little sense because in modern warfare, they're all "combat roles."

Knock on wood, there won't be any combat roles in the foreseeable future that require any conscription; our all volunteer military should be sufficient... and if it's not, we always have the nuclear option as the... Well, I suppose that's why they call it the "nuclear option."
 
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Oompa Loompa

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Yes, and they were also considered mentally and emotionally inferior.

All scientific studies verify that women are physically inferior to men, generally speaking. That is a fact. But I have to ask, what now is your definition of a "woman"? Because it appears it has changed in the last couple posts. Is it because you know that "A woman is whatever they say it is" definition makes it impossible to have a rational opinion on the topic? That now you must make your argument using the definition we all know to fit with reality even though your ideology will not allow you to admit it?

But the role of women in combat is growing.
Growing for political reasons, not because it is best for the defense and security of the country. It sure isn't because the science says it is a good idea.
 
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TLK Valentine

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But I have to ask, what now is your definition of a "woman"? Because it appears it has changed in the last couple posts.

No, it was because for the purpose of this discussion, I agreed to use whatever definition you wished. I explained this to you already.

Growing for political reasons, not because it is best for the defense and security of the country. It sure isn't because the science says it is a good idea.

War is a political action, not a scientific one. You wish to keep women out of combat zones; I wish to keep everybody out of combat zones. The problem with both of our approaches is that in modern warfare, the "combat zone" can be literally anywhere at any time.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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Post 218. You even quoted it... twice.
So you did. My apologies. But back to the point I was making, it is one thing for women in non-combat roles to be attacked and must defend themselves. Thankfully, they will likely be surrounded by able bodied men to protect them. But nobody can look at any of the studies and say it is a good idea to put women in combat arms occupations. Meaning a occupation which requires engagement with the enemy (infantry, artillery, tanks). Anyone who objectively looks at the statistics and supports putting women in combat roles are doing so in spite of the security and defense of the nation, and the lives of the woman and those required to protect her. The only exception I would entertain would be a pilot.
 
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RDKirk

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So you did. My apologies. But back to the point I was making, it is one thing for women in non-combat roles to be attacked and must defend themselves. Thankfully, they will likely be surrounded by able bodied men to protect them. But nobody can look at any of the studies and say it is a good idea to put women in combat arms occupations. Meaning a occupation which requires engagement with the enemy (infantry, artillery, tanks). Anyone who objectively looks at the statistics and supports putting women in combat roles are doing so in spite of the security and defense of the nation, and the lives of the woman and those required to protect her. The only exception I would entertain would be a pilot.

There is a philosophical aspect and a physical aspect. I'll speak at this point only of the physical aspect.

The primary physical aspect is that service in the combat arms on the ground is extremely physically demanding, and those physical demands are also solidly linked to the effectiveness of the group.

These are different from the physical demands of combat as a pilot or a sailor or in support units. Yes, they have their heavy physical demands, too, at certain times and in certain operations.

But ground combat is characterized by continuous high physical demands, and they are placed on each individual in the group, so the failure of the weaker cannot be shifted to the stronger all the time.

Back in the early 90s, I was in a joint unit with young Marines, sailors, soldiers, and airmen working for me. At lunchtime, several of the young male Marines and soldiers would urge me to go with them on their daily lunchtime run. They ran a very fast twenty-minute three-miler. I'd always decline. Years before I'd given up running as my primary cardio exercise in favor of road cycling...for the sake of my knees and hips (note: I'd been a sergeant literally longer than these young men had been alive).

One day, though, I decided to show them that the old man could still hang, so I went on the run with them. And, yes, I kept up with them.

The next day at lunch, they came back to my desk, "Come and run with us again, Top!"

I told them, "No, I've got something here I've got to do."

The Army sergeant beside me--not quite as old as I was--chuckled and said, "Yeah...mend." And he was right. Maybe I could do that kind of thing once a month, but not every single day like those young guys.

The Army has had women in some of these positions for quite a long time, even back to the early 90s. There is actually quite a lot of data, and it's points to a consistent fact: By virtue of their high testosterone and grown hormone levels, young men can take the constant heavy, daily, physical grind of ground combat in a way that women--even strong women--and older men cannot. There are women who can handle it briefly, but the Army data show that they wind up suffering the same kind of chronic debilitation as an older man would.
 
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Trogdor the Burninator

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Do you think every single soldier who was drafted and went to war was perfectly willing? What do you say to the hundreds of thousands who fell in battle for the freedom you currently live in?

It's called duty to your country. It used to be embraced as something to be applauded. There is a price for having the freedom we have right now - not a cliché but a truth.

America (and some other countries) should have thought of that before using draftees in Vietnam - a war which had nothing to do with the defence of the USA.
 
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hislegacy

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America (and some other countries) should have thought of that before using draftees in Vietnam - a war which had nothing to do with the defence of the USA.

Do you feel the same with the US going into Europe in WW2?
 
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Oompa Loompa

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There is a philosophical aspect and a physical aspect. I'll speak at this point only of the physical aspect.

The primary physical aspect is that service in the combat arms on the ground is extremely physically demanding, and those physical demands are also solidly linked to the effectiveness of the group.

These are different from the physical demands of combat as a pilot or a sailor or in support units. Yes, they have their heavy physical demands, too, at certain times and in certain operations.

But ground combat is characterized by continuous high physical demands, and they are placed on each individual in the group, so the failure of the weaker cannot be shifted to the stronger all the time.

Back in the early 90s, I was in a joint unit with young Marines, sailors, soldiers, and airmen working for me. At lunchtime, several of the young male Marines and soldiers would urge me to go with them on their daily lunchtime run. They ran a very fast twenty-minute three-miler. I'd always decline. Years before I'd given up running as my primary cardio exercise in favor of road cycling...for the sake of my knees and hips (note: I'd been a sergeant literally longer than these young men had been alive).

One day, though, I decided to show them that the old man could still hang, so I went on the run with them. And, yes, I kept up with them.

The next day at lunch, they came back to my desk, "Come and run with us again, Top!"

I told them, "No, I've got something here I've got to do."

The Army sergeant beside me--not quite as old as I was--chuckled and said, "Yeah...mend." And he was right. Maybe I could do that kind of thing once a month, but not every single day like those young guys.

The Army has had women in some of these positions for quite a long time, even back to the early 90s. There is actually quite a lot of data, and it's points to a consistent fact: By virtue of their high testosterone and grown hormone levels, young men can take the constant heavy, daily, physical grind of ground combat in a way that women--even strong women--and older men cannot. There are women who can handle it briefly, but the Army data show that they wind up suffering the same kind of chronic debilitation as an older man would.
I completely agree. I think it was the Marine Corps who did a study by putting the toughest women they had (200 of the top 1%) and sent them to Infanty Officers School. Only two made it through. But one needed several months worth of medical treatment because her body was literally shutting down. The other barely passed with mediocre scores. The conclusion was that the top 1% of the top 1% of women were equal to a mediocre infantry Marine officer. To be fare, for most people, just keeping up with a mediocre Marine is an accomplishment. But in spite of the results and the recommendations of the Marine Corps, the Obama administration pushed their agenda anyway. Political correctness and politics were more important than national security and the lives of the servicemwomen.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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America (and some other countries) should have thought of that before using draftees in Vietnam - a war which had nothing to do with the defence of the USA.
I am not seeing your point.
 
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