Seeking advice. I'm in an odd situation w/2 guys courting me, 1 is a pastor.

[Angelfrog]

It feels just wretched, doesn't it, when you want to do the right thing but it doesn't seem clear?

I hope I didn't come across as accusing you of being 'secretive' or anything like that! Firstly, you're entitled to share what and how much you choose- and secondly, none of us has a right to demand more information. I was thinking really of your previous posts- and where you gave an indication of not wanting or not being willing to 'go public' with your engagement/ commitment.
I hope I wasn't being pushy!!!!

I think it's probably wise that you're not communicating with the pastor. Hopefully in time, that will run its course and he'll cease to be part of the problem- not that that seems your main concern any more.

Am I right in thinking that the issue for you now is really about the timing of marriage (if it's right to make him wait longer) and about your church's reaction?

Could I ask a silly question- what significance would it have for your church if you did marry straight out of college? I'm not advocating that you do- nor saying that you shouldn't.... just trying to look at the situation.

What, specifically, worries you about the church's reaction? Do you feel they would disapprove of you marrying someone YOU have chosen and not them? Do you feel that they would disapprove of him specifically? Is it your age (over here, if you go to university straight from school, as the vast majority do- you'll be about 21- or 22 for a Teaching degree as they're 4 years rather than 3-when you graduate, so that's pretty young)
Is it something to do with your career?

I ask mainly because I'm trying to establish whether your worry about what they'd think comes from them having a real, practical 'hold' over your decision- or if you're just worried about their opinion of you, or that they wouldn't 'approve'. If that's the case- why does their approval/ disapproval mean so much to you that it actually plays a big part in you making life-decisions?

I hope these questions make sense- I'm not trying to criticise- but work out where your worry is coming from, if you see what I mean.

 

[Blessed boy]

My dear sister, I have not had the time to read the tons of advices you have received. Hence, I can't recommend one or the other.

However I will tackle your dilemma in two ways.

1. The dream: What I don't get from the dream is whether he saw you as his wife in the dream or he just saw you. If he just saw you, it could mean anything. Secondly are you the only woman he had ever seen in the dream? What was he praying for that he led him to see you. We all see people in our dreams as single people, that doesn't lead us to marry them. So you don't have to let his dream direct your decision. The dream has to be stated in context.

2. You have been dating someone for 2 years and you are now discussing getting married . Do you really love this man? What is the level of your love for this man? How do you feel in your heart when you are with him? What are the things you like about him and what are the things you hate about him? You have known him for 2 years, you can answer those questions. That is because, when your love for Him isn't strong, then the pastor with his dream can sway you. But if your love for him is strong, no pastor or bishop will sway you off your foot.

This is a very delicate situation and someone's heart is involved here, your heart and the heart of th man you have dated. Don't let anyone tell you that you are not technically married to the other man, therefore dump him.

What if you dumb your fiance and the pastor has another dream and in his dream he sees another woman.

God has planted His wisdom in your heart. Ask Him to unravel it. he helped Solomon and in James 1:5 the bible says:

"If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him."

If it were me, I wouldn't dumb my current fiance for a pastor I don't know. If God gave him a dream, tell God to also give you the dream to confirm that the 'Pastor is the one'.

But don't break the heart of your dear Fiance

 

[truelove1]

It feels just wretched, doesn't it, when you want to do the right thing but it doesn't seem clear?

1 I hope I didn't come across as accusing you of being 'secretive' or anything like that! Firstly, you're entitled to share what and how much you choose- and secondly, none of us has a right to demand more information. 2 I was thinking really of your previous posts- and where you gave an indication of not wanting or not being willing to 'go public' with your engagement/ commitment.
I hope I wasn't being pushy!!!!

I think it's probably wise that you're not communicating with the pastor. Hopefully in time, that will run its course and he'll cease to be part of the problem- not that that seems your main concern any more.

3. Am I right in thinking that the issue for you now is really about the timing of marriage (if it's right to make him wait longer) and about your church's reaction?

Could I ask a silly question- 4. what significance would it have for your church if you did marry straight out of college? I'm not advocating that you do- nor saying that you shouldn't.... just trying to look at the situation.

5. What, specifically, worries you about the church's reaction? Do you feel they would disapprove of you marrying someone YOU have chosen and not them? Do you feel that they would disapprove of him specifically? 6. Is it your age (over here, if you go to university straight from school, as the vast majority do- you'll be about 21- or 22 for a Teaching degree as they're 4 years rather than 3-when you graduate, so that's pretty young)
7. Is it something to do with your career?

I ask mainly because I'm trying to establish whether your worry about what they'd think comes from them having a real, practical 'hold' over your decision- or if you're just worried about their opinion of you, or that they wouldn't 'approve'. 8. If that's the case- why does their approval/ disapproval mean so much to you that it actually plays a big part in you making life-decisions?

I hope these questions make sense- I'm not trying to criticise- but work out where your worry is coming from, if you see what I mean.

i'll try to answer these.

1. you didn't

2. i don't know how to answer that at this time but i guess part of it is because i'm not ready to be open with my church leaders about my plans, since the plans aren't the ones they tried to persuade me to do.

3. yes, you're right, that is what i've been telling the guy who's been courting me a couple of years.

4. i don't know. i haven't asked them. this is one of the questions about them that he has been asking me also. maybe they're wanting to keep me from relocating far from them. that could have something to do with it.

5. yes, i think so. also, no, i don't believe they would otherwise disapprove of him/disapprove of him specifically.

6. no, it's not my age. i'm 26.

7. kinda. the leaders want me to take a year to complete my teacher's license before doing anything else. during that year of preparing and taking the exam, i would also be involved in ministry with my church, which my church leaders and i feel like is important. i signed a covenant with my church, just like all students going to college through the church, that i would do this for a year or two after graduating. the guy i'm involved with likes the idea of me continuing in ministry but wanted us to marry during that time or make our engagement official instead of waiting another year to do one of those two things, but he is accepting my decision. he also told me the license i will get where i live won't be valid or help me get a job in the state he lives in, so he's concerned about all the time and effort (about one year) i will invest into this particular exam.

8. i would say both practical and their opinion of me are factors in this situation. the hold is practical because i signed the covenant and their opinion matters too because i want to be in a good standing/relationship with them. they helped me through college and i don't want to hurt their feelings.

 

[xxxxxxtra]

You sound like you need to grow up

 

[truelove1]

My dear sister, I have not had the time to read the tons of advices you have received. Hence, I can't recommend one or the other.

However I will tackle your dilemma in two ways.

1. The dream: What I don't get from the dream is whether he saw you as his wife in the dream or he just saw you. If he just saw you, it could mean anything. Secondly are you the only woman he had ever seen in the dream? What was he praying for that he led him to see you. We all see people in our dreams as single people, that doesn't lead us to marry them. So you don't have to let his dream direct your decision. The dream has to be stated in context.

2. You have been dating someone for 2 years and you are now discussing getting married . Do you really love this man? What is the level of your love for this man? How do you feel in your heart when you are with him? What are the things you like about him and what are the things you hate about him? You have known him for 2 years, you can answer those questions. That is because, when your love for Him isn't strong, then the pastor with his dream can sway you. But if your love for him is strong, no pastor or bishop will sway you off your foot.

This is a very delicate situation and someone's heart is involved here, your heart and the heart of th man you have dated. Don't let anyone tell you that you are not technically married to the other man, therefore dump him.

What if you dumb your fiance and the pastor has another dream and in his dream he sees another woman.

God has planted His wisdom in your heart. Ask Him to unravel it. he helped Solomon and in James 1:5 the bible says:

"If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him."

If it were me, I wouldn't dumb my current fiance for a pastor I don't know. If God gave him a dream, tell God to also give you the dream to confirm that the 'Pastor is the one'.

But don't break the heart of your dear Fiance

i went on the one lunch date in the past only out of respect for my church leaders because they wanted me to do it. he and i no longer communicate. even at the time he and the church leaders approached me with these plans they had, i told him that my someone and i have had plans already for a couple of years.

 

[Angelfrog]

This may sound a bit odd but, although I do think they've acted strangely and have interfered in matters that are none of their business- I'm beginning to wonder if it's more a case of you feeling beholden to the church rather than just them being controlling (not that that's right in any form at all).

That probably sounds a bit weird, so I'll try to set out my thought process here, truelove.

As I think I've said, you seem like a person who worries about offending others. You seem as if you probably lack self confidence in some ways and you have a very strongly developed sense of obligation- a bit TOO strong, I suspect.

Although circumstances were, of course, different, I can relate to that- because I grew up with someone who was exactly that- and as a young Christian (I was saved when I was 17- I'm now 46)- in my teens and early twenties, there was a big dose of that in me as well.

Some of those are admirable traits- but it's about balance. Tell me if I've got this wrong- but do you find that you want to do the right thing, to make others happy, to be someone who can be relied on- to show gratitude to those who have helped you- but also want to live your own life, follow your own path and make your own decisions..yet, for some reason, find that you can't seem to do both? Somewhere in you is something that says you can do one or the other.

If that's the case- maybe it's time to put aside thinking about your relationship just for a moment and think more about this 'dilemma'.

I understand that having signed a covenant, you are bound to the church to some extent. Fair enough. I can see why a church may ask students that it's supported to commit to giving back, as it were, some of the benefit of the education received with their assistance. Over here, I've know people who received sponsorship for university rather than apply for their Student Loan- and, not unreasonably, part of the sponsorship 'deal' was that they enter that company on graduation. Why should the company pay for someone who would then go and work for a competitor- why should a rival benefit from their investment in that student?
Not quite the same, I know- but the principal is similar. And, to be fair, you did make and sign a commitment to do so. Obviously, we don't know exactly what the terms are and what demands are made on you- but, unless they're grossly unfair, I can see why you have an obligation.

Going back to the student here with a sponsorship- yes, they'd be expected to work for that company- but not to bind themselves with the company for the rest of their life! At some point, that student will be a worker who may well want to change careers, relocate, switch employers, etc. No company has the right to demand that the student feel bound to them forever.

In a similar vein, you seem to suggest that you feel you are bound to the church because you don't want to 'upset' or 'offend' them.
That's the crux of it, isn't it?

Do you feel beholden to the church because you feel you owe them (putting aside the covenant for a moment)?
Or
Do you feel beholden to the church because they have actually implied - or told you-that you must stay with them and commit to them?

The first is YOUR perception. The second is your CHURCH and an issue of control.

Ok, imagine this scenario.
You've graduated, you have your license (I'm still not sure how that works- as I've said, very different system to us!)- you've returned to your church and you've spent two years or so working alongside them.
You then feel that God is calling you to work elsewhere- maybe even overseas. Putting aside the matter of licenses, your fiance and whatnot for the moment- could you go? Imagine that this conviction is strong. You have no doubts that it's what you want to do and you feel called. Imagine that money isn't an issue. Thinking of your relationship with your church- would you go? If not, why not?

Would it be because they tell you that you must remain with them? Or would it be because you feel that it would be 'ungrateful' or would 'upset' or 'offend' them?

How you would answer that would give you a big insight into the root of a lot of things.

If your church would attempt to stop you or tell you that you couldn't go- then there is a very serious problem with your church- and it is NOT a healthy place to be.

If it's the latter- then the issue is with your perception. The church gave you assistance. It did not buy you. It does not own you. You did not sign a covenant that says you are no longer your own person but, for the rest of your life, must be bound to them.

If you're in a church who jealously guards its people and keeps them in its own little group- that's very, very bad news.

If you're in church that assists people and maybe asks for a short term commitment afterwards in your case - but also recognises that its task is to equip people to go out into the world for God (whether that 'world' is in the immediate neighbourhood or half way across the planet)- then what on earth could possibly be offensive or upsetting to them about that?


You could ask the same in the case of wanting to move away for health/ family or other reasons. Would you imagine that you can never leave- or would the church actively intervene in trying to stop you?

Basically, truelove, how much is your church and how much could be having a rather over developed sense of obligation? Are they controlling- or is there a little bit of you that finds you want to be thought well of and liked- maybe even relying on your 'commitments' to escape having to make decisions on bigger issues?

I'm not judging or criticising, truelove- I've been there. I've watched it in a close family member and recognise elements in my own behaviours in the past. Maybe even a little bit now, to be honest. I just think you need to be very clear where this sense of not wanting to offend or upset is really coming from.

 

[truelove1]

This may sound a bit odd but, although I do think they've acted strangely and have interfered in matters that are none of their business- I'm beginning to wonder if it's more a case of you feeling beholden to the church rather than just them being controlling (not that that's right in any form at all).

That probably sounds a bit weird, so I'll try to set out my thought process here, truelove.

As I think I've said, you seem like a person who worries about offending others. You seem as if you probably lack self confidence in some ways and you have a very strongly developed sense of obligation- a bit TOO strong, I suspect.

Although circumstances were, of course, different, I can relate to that- because I grew up with someone who was exactly that- and as a young Christian (I was saved when I was 17- I'm now 46)- in my teens and early twenties, there was a big dose of that in me as well.

Some of those are admirable traits- but it's about balance. Tell me if I've got this wrong- but do you find that you want to do the right thing, to make others happy, to be someone who can be relied on- to show gratitude to those who have helped you- but also want to live your own life, follow your own path and make your own decisions..yet, for some reason, find that you can't seem to do both? Somewhere in you is something that says you can do one or the other.

If that's the case- maybe it's time to put aside thinking about your relationship just for a moment and think more about this 'dilemma'.

I understand that having signed a covenant, you are bound to the church to some extent. Fair enough. I can see why a church may ask students that it's supported to commit to giving back, as it were, some of the benefit of the education received with their assistance. Over here, I've know people who received sponsorship for university rather than apply for their Student Loan- and, not unreasonably, part of the sponsorship 'deal' was that they enter that company on graduation. Why should the company pay for someone who would then go and work for a competitor- why should a rival benefit from their investment in that student?
Not quite the same, I know- but the principal is similar. And, to be fair, you did make and sign a commitment to do so. Obviously, we don't know exactly what the terms are and what demands are made on you- but, unless they're grossly unfair, I can see why you have an obligation.

Going back to the student here with a sponsorship- yes, they'd be expected to work for that company- but not to bind themselves with the company for the rest of their life! At some point, that student will be a worker who may well want to change careers, relocate, switch employers, etc. No company has the right to demand that the student feel bound to them forever.

In a similar vein, you seem to suggest that you feel you are bound to the church because you don't want to 'upset' or 'offend' them.
That's the crux of it, isn't it?

Do you feel beholden to the church because you feel you owe them (putting aside the covenant for a moment)?
Or
Do you feel beholden to the church because they have actually implied - or told you-that you must stay with them and commit to them?

The first is YOUR perception. The second is your CHURCH and an issue of control.

Ok, imagine this scenario.
You've graduated, you have your license (I'm still not sure how that works- as I've said, very different system to us!)- you've returned to your church and you've spent two years or so working alongside them.
You then feel that God is calling you to work elsewhere- maybe even overseas. Putting aside the matter of licenses, your fiance and whatnot for the moment- could you go? Imagine that this conviction is strong. You have no doubts that it's what you want to do and you feel called. Imagine that money isn't an issue. Thinking of your relationship with your church- would you go? If not, why not?

Would it be because they tell you that you must remain with them? Or would it be because you feel that it would be 'ungrateful' or would 'upset' or 'offend' them?

How you would answer that would give you a big insight into the root of a lot of things.

If your church would attempt to stop you or tell you that you couldn't go- then there is a very serious problem with your church- and it is NOT a healthy place to be.

If it's the latter- then the issue is with your perception. The church gave you assistance. It did not buy you. It does not own you. You did not sign a covenant that says you are no longer your own person but, for the rest of your life, must be bound to them.

If you're in a church who jealously guards its people and keeps them in its own little group- that's very, very bad news.

If you're in church that assists people and maybe asks for a short term commitment afterwards in your case - but also recognises that its task is to equip people to go out into the world for God (whether that 'world' is in the immediate neighbourhood or half way across the planet)- then what on earth could possibly be offensive or upsetting to them about that?


You could ask the same in the case of wanting to move away for health/ family or other reasons. Would you imagine that you can never leave- or would the church actively intervene in trying to stop you?

Basically, truelove, how much is your church and how much could be having a rather over developed sense of obligation? Are they controlling- or is there a little bit of you that finds you want to be thought well of and liked- maybe even relying on your 'commitments' to escape having to make decisions on bigger issues?

I'm not judging or criticising, truelove- I've been there. I've watched it in a close family member and recognise elements in my own behaviours in the past. Maybe even a little bit now, to be honest. I just think you need to be very clear where this sense of not wanting to offend or upset is really coming from.

thanks again. i really appreciate it. i read your post thoroughly and will consider it. right now i don't know how to reply to it.

 

[truelove1]

i had a conversation with my someone today. he noticed the other guy typed an "i'm so happy!" comment underneath one of my fb pics that he tagged himself in. so he asked me why the guy made that comment underneath my pic. i told him it was probably because the church wants me to marry him. he wants to ask the guy why he made that comment but i told him if he does i won't choose to marry either of them. he asked me if i have been communicating with the guy. i told him yes but it's not always and that we don't chat on ym or facebook- i also told him that it's not what he thinks. i chose to delete the guy i met recently (who made the comment on my facebook) from my friends list on facebook and i'm considering taking a break from communicating with my someone for a couple of months (i want to see if i can do it) or communicating with him just once a month, even though he told me if i do this it will be a major strain on our relationship because of the situation i'm in with the other guy. people from my church have continued to try to persuade me into choosing the the guy they want for me. i'm just quiet to them now because it would do no good to repeat myself to them or the guy they want me to marry. they keep filling my mind with ideas about this guy, so i'm stressed and don't want to think about it much.

 

[seashale76]

i had a conversation with my someone today. he noticed the other guy typed an "i'm so happy!" comment underneath one of my fb pics that he tagged himself in. so he asked me why the guy made that comment underneath my pic. i told him it was probably because the church wants me to marry him. he wants to ask the guy why he made that comment but i told him if he does i won't choose to marry either of them. he asked me if i have been communicating with the guy. i told him yes but it's not always and that we don't chat on ym or facebook- i also told him that it's not what he thinks. i chose to delete the guy i met recently (who made the comment on my facebook) from my friends list on facebook and i'm considering taking a break from communicating with my someone for a couple of months (i want to see if i can do it) or communicating with him just once a month, even though he told me if i do this it will be a major strain on our relationship. people from my church have continued to try to persuade me into choosing the the guy they want for me. i'm just quiet to them now because it would do no good to repeat myself to them or the guy they want me to marry. they keep filling my mind with ideas about this guy, so i'm stressed and don't want to think about it much.

^That's not the mature response of someone who claims to be in a serious relationship and is planning on marrying a guy. You're in a long distance relationship. You're allowing an argument for something on facebook to cause drama in said relationship, and your solution is to stop communicating with your boyfriend/fiance?

There should be no doubt if you want to marry someone and plan on that marriage working. People who dither around and doubt and then can't decide if they want to get married, and then go ahead and get married anyway, tend to also get divorced. It sounds like you're not ready to get married to anyone. Quit playing games.

Also, many states have reciprocal teaching agreements once you're licensed. You may be required to take the Praxis for whatever state you move to and will likely be required to take extra classes or something similar. However, teachers move around the country all the time. If I were you, I'd contact the Department of Education for the state you plan on moving to. They will inform you as to what you need to do. (I'm a teacher.)

 

[truelove1]

^That's not the mature response of someone who claims to be in a serious relationship and is planning on marrying a guy. You're in a long distance relationship. You're allowing an argument for something on facebook to cause drama in said relationship, and your solution is to stop communicating with your boyfriend/fiance?

There should be no doubt if you want to marry someone and plan on that marriage working. People who dither around and doubt and then can't decide if they want to get married, and then go ahead and get married anyway, tend to also get divorced. It sounds like you're not ready to get married to anyone. Quit playing games.

Also, many states have reciprocal teaching agreements once you're licensed. You may be required to take the Praxis for whatever state you move to and will likely be required to take extra classes or something similar. However, teachers move around the country all the time. If I were you, I'd contact the Department of Education for the state you plan on moving to. They will inform you as to what you need to do. (I'm a teacher.)

i don't think i'm playing games. the leaders are putting a lot of pressure on me and i'm stressed out about it, so i think there's a valid reason for my actions.

 

[Avniel]

i don't think i'm playing games. the leaders are putting a lot of pressure on me and i'm stressed out about it, so i think there's a valid reason for my actions.

Yes but if you love the guy your with now you're just damaging your relationship and potential marriage. If you can do a month with only talking to him once or not at all I think you aren't ready to be married to anyone. How does it feel to have two men after you?

 

[truelove1]

Yes but if you love the guy your with now you're just damaging your relationship and potential marriage. If you can do a month with only talking to him once or not at all I think you aren't ready to be married to anyone. How does it feel to have two men after you?

I deleted him from my friends list on facebook.

The first time we talked I already told him I can't answer him and I told him the reason- because i told him that i have someone who waited for a long time and we had a plan after i graduate. I already told him that day that i will never say a word which is yes or no and that I don't like to give an unsure answer. I said I have a special someone in my heart and we have plans after i graduate.

I cannot force him to stop showing interest because he is just following his feelings.

 

[LilLamb219]

You're going to stop talking to the man in your life for a couple months??

It's obvious you aren't in love with him. Admit it to yourself and then to him. He needs to know.

I

i had a conversation with my someone today. he noticed the other guy typed an "i'm so happy!" comment underneath one of my fb pics that he tagged himself in. so he asked me why the guy made that comment underneath my pic. i told him it was probably because the church wants me to marry him. he wants to ask the guy why he made that comment but i told him if he does i won't choose to marry either of them. he asked me if i have been communicating with the guy. i told him yes but it's not always and that we don't chat on ym or facebook- i also told him that it's not what he thinks. i chose to delete the guy i met recently (who made the comment on my facebook) from my friends list on facebook and i'm considering taking a break from communicating with my someone for a couple of months (i want to see if i can do it) or communicating with him just once a month, even though he told me if i do this it will be a major strain on our relationship because of the situation i'm in with the other guy. people from my church have continued to try to persuade me into choosing the the guy they want for me. i'm just quiet to them now because it would do no good to repeat myself to them or the guy they want me to marry. they keep filling my mind with ideas about this guy, so i'm stressed and don't want to think about it much.

 

[Mrs. Luther073082]

That guys sounds crazy. Run away!

 

[joey_downunder]

I agree LilLamb219.

Truelove, I skimmed through your latest entries and it really does look like you are looking for a way out and you're trying to find any excuse to justify this decision and mentally let yourself off the "she's so mean to keep him hoping futilely for so long..." hook.

It really sounds like this young man deserves someone better - someone who knows she wants to marry him. If you're really so weak you're going to let a church determine your potential partners then you should be single until you're willing to think for yourself.

 

[Avniel]

I agree LilLamb219.

Truelove, I skimmed through your latest entries and it really does look like you are looking for a way out and you're trying to find any excuse to justify this decision and mentally let yourself off the "she's so mean to keep him hoping futilely for so long..." hook.

It really sounds like this young man deserves someone better - someone who knows she wants to marry him. If you're really so weak you're going to let a church determine your potential partners then you should be single until you're willing to think for yourself.

That's all I am saying. This guy sounds like a good Dude even when she talking to another guy he still hasn't left, he still has feelings for her....honestly this situation just makes the church, the op and the other guy seem messy. The boyfriend is really the victim in this situation.

 

[Avniel]

That guys sounds crazy. Run away!

Which one the one that is holding on to a woman that was considering leaving him for another guy or the pastor that is using the church as his own personal wing man. One sounds like their nose is wide open and the other sounds like a predator, manipulator and a con artist.

 

[truelove1]

Which one the one that is holding on to a woman that was considering leaving him for another guy or the pastor that is using the church as his own personal wing man. One sounds like their nose is wide open and the other sounds like a predator, manipulator and a con artist.

what do you mean by nose wide open? i'm just curious.

 

[truelove1]

Which one the one that is holding on to a woman that was considering leaving him for another guy or the pastor that is using the church as his own personal wing man. One sounds like their nose is wide open and the other sounds like a predator, manipulator and a con artist.

maybe i'm thinking some of you guys are too judgemental. do you have a right to be judgemental toward the people you mentioned?

 

[seashale76]

maybe i'm thinking some of you guys are too judgemental. do you have a right to be judgemental toward the people you mentioned?

For crying out loud, woman. You're asking people's opinions and advice on a message board. People do make judgments based on given information, whether they want to own up to it or not. You've done it too. If you don't like the responses you're free to ignore the advice and do what you were going to do anyway (just without approval from random internet strangers). People aren't always going to tell you what you want to hear.

The internet is a horrible medium for personal advice anyway.