Second-chance Purgatory?

[grasping the after wind]

No, it's not. We believe in God's mercy, and purgatory is part of that mercy, but those who haven't had the opportunity to be baptized are not automatically sinners.

Don't they have original sin?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Because that was the canon our Lord recognized as talking about Him.

While it was not “formally” recognized, the Pharasaic canon consisted of 3 parts: The Torah (law of Moses) the Prohpets and the writings aka “Psalms.” Our Lord referered to those parts often.

However, the Sadduccees only recognized the Torah. Our Lord also referenced the Deuterocanon. But since when does Our Lord's reference of a particular OT passage mark that as Scriptural? There are some OT Canon which were never referenced by Jesus. Should we just X those out?

 

[Dave-W]

he Sadduccees only recognized the Torah.

Kind of correct.

Our Lord also referenced the Deuterocanon.

Where?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Don't they have original sin?

Sure.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Kind of correct.

Where?

DEUTEROCANONICAL BOOKS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT - Scripture Catholic

 

[grasping the after wind]

Sure.

Then , just like me, they are sinners.

 

[Dave-W]

DEUTEROCANONICAL BOOKS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT - Scripture Catholic

Eh - most of those are pretty sketchy. Many of the passages actually reflect the words of Rabbis Hillel and Shammai in the first century bc.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Then , just like me, they are sinners.

But God is merciful.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Eh - most of those are pretty sketchy. Many of the passages actually reflect the words of Rabbis Hillel and Shammai in the first century bc.

But also the Deuterocanon. BTW, where did the Jewish feast of Hannukah appear in the OT?

 

[Dave-W]

But also the Deuterocanon. BTW, where did the Jewish feast of Hannukah appear in the OT?

It occurred after the close of the OT canon.

The ONLY scriptural reference to it is in John 10.22

 

[Root of Jesse]

It occurred after the close of the OT canon.

The ONLY scriptural reference to it is in John 10.22

In your scripture, right. But it also occurs in the Deuterocanon. Jews closed their canon to Jews, not to Christians. We go by the Septuagint.
Septuagint - Wikipedia

 

[Dave-W]

In your scripture, right. But it also occurs in the Deuterocanon. Jews closed their canon to Jews, not to Christians. We go by the Septuagint.
Septuagint - Wikipedia

That comes down to a question of who has authority to determine the Word. But that is a topic for at least a different thread, if not a different folder.

 

[grasping the after wind]

But God is merciful.

We are all counting on that.

 

[Root of Jesse]

That comes down to a question of who has authority to determine the Word. But that is a topic for at least a different thread, if not a different folder.

The Holy Spirit determined the Word and expressed it to the councils of Rome and Carthage.

 

[Calvin_1985]

You are right about several things. You don't know me. The Bible is one way, not the only way, but one way God speaks to us. And that people often filter the Bible to bad effect.

I think you may have agreed with me that the Bible does not teach that I may only belive those things that are specified in Scripture. Scripture does not specify a pattern for how a service of worship was run. Oh a few hints, but nothing like you would even be handed when walking into almost any Protestant c
Service today. And there were reasons for that. They didn't want to commit such important things to paper in an age of persecution. They passed that down orally to those ordained to lead the communities, from apostles to bishops to priests and deacons. It didn't need to be in the Bible what the liturgy was. But when Protestants came along trying to recreate worship by the Bible alone they filtered out the way of worship from the apostles and consequently had to make it up. Not always very well either.

You asked where Purgatory was in the Bible. I might ask where Sacrament or Trinity or Personal Savior are in the Bible. But at least we seem to agree that we are not Bible Only even as we use the Bible as an authority. So, you answered my question and I will answer yours. Purgatory is implied by the Books of Machabees, where some Jewish soldiers are killed in battle and the rest arrange to pray for them, after they were dead. That would make sense with purgatory and would make no sense without it. It's a Biblical instance of the Jewish tradition of praying for the dead.

You might say that isn't Scripture. But Protestants ripped that out because they didn't like the buying and selling of indulgences. They were right about that, as buying and selling of indulgences was a one time mistake by a Catholic violating Catholic rules. But the Protestants went further and threw out indulgences entirely, purgatory entirely, prayers for the dead entirely, and finally started tossing books from the Bible. If Luther had his way you would have a very truncated Bible. Philip Melenchton talked him out of sacking a chunk of the NT.

Christians used the Septuagent from the beginning. And it had all the books. When the canon of Scripture was closed it had all the books. But Judaism decided to close their canon differently. In particular, they wanted to exclude this Jesus the Messiah thing. They couldn't very well exclude Isaiah, but they managed to exclude the whole NT and all those other Greek things, figuring they could exclude Jesus if they only allowed Hebrew in their canon.

The apocrypha is definitely Historical and gives us some insights into Israel during the time of no prophets, but it is t scripture. It doesn't flow by the same method that the Canon of 66 books do. I look at the apocrypha just as I would say a Hymn. It may be about The Lord and honoring Him and about the many aspects of Him, but it isn't scripture. It could be considered an extension of what Father has done in the person to testify, but that doesn't mean it is scripture.
The Bible isn't the only way Yahweh speaks, but it is the confirmation of What He does speak. I would say to the fact that purgatory is drawn from an insulation from a passage of Maccabees, that I wouldn't base anything on it for the same reason that the Mormons believe Joseph Smith is prophesied in the The OT. I wasn't asking for the specefic word Purgatory, but a demonstration from scripture that gives a clear picture. The "Trinity" is found all throughout scripture, but the word never exists in any Scripture. It can be demonstrated from the very beginning of Genesis and seen all throughout as well as Testified of within Creation itself. I won't elaborate on these things as of now, but if you would like me to, I will.

 

[Root of Jesse]

The apocrypha is definitely Historical and gives us some insights into Israel during the time of no prophets, but it is t scripture. It doesn't flow by the same method that the Canon of 66 books do. I look at the apocrypha just as I would say a Hymn. It may be about The Lord and honoring Him and about the many aspects of Him, but it isn't scripture. It could be considered an extension of what Father has done in the person to testify, but that doesn't mean it is scripture.

This is your opinion, and you are entitled to it, but that wasn't one of the criteria used to determine what was and wasn't Scriptural.

The Bible isn't the only way Yahweh speaks, but it is the confirmation of What He does speak. I would say to the fact that purgatory is drawn from an insulation from a passage of Maccabees, that I wouldn't base anything on it for the same reason that the Mormons believe Joseph Smith is prophesied in the The OT. I wasn't asking for the specefic word Purgatory, but a demonstration from scripture that gives a clear picture. The "Trinity" is found all throughout scripture, but the word never exists in any Scripture. It can be demonstrated from the very beginning of Genesis and seen all throughout as well as Testified of within Creation itself. I won't elaborate on these things as of now, but if you would like me to, I will.

Purgatory, the concept, appears in your Bible, and more so in my Bible.

 

[Calvin_1985]

This is your opinion, and you are entitled to it, but that wasn't one of the criteria used to determine what was and wasn't Scriptural.
Purgatory, the concept, appears in your Bible, and more so in my Bible.

Do you ever do anything with your time instead of blurting into a conversation between two others just to tell them what they said is their opinion and Correct them? I see you doing all over here.

Please just stop trying to create debates and hear your energy into helping bear the burdens of Brothers and sisters in need. It's fine to discuss some of these things and the only reason I got involved with this with Chevy is because I've never had anyone ever actually demonstrate or show the teachings of Purgatory. I've only had one mention Maccabees (which is never quoted anywhere else in the Bible or New Testament), and others that the concept is there but never once gives a demonstration of how they have concluded that.

Now I kindly ask you not to butt into any of my conversations with an attempt to tell me how wrong I am. I don't give into these types of things because it only causes resentment and negativity that is not needed. I'm here to fellowship with others and speak of the Love of Jesus and what He opened me to, a new life of peace, freedom, Grace, Mercy, passion, Love for my Creator and my neighbors and even my enemies. Because of Jesus blood that was shed for me, I can walk with My Father and know Him and be led by Him to glorify Him in my Life and that everything will reflect Him, everything He is. I'm here to begin sharing my Genesis road with other Christians looking for support along the way. I'm here to give them wisdom of what it takes and What Father does in and with the Trials. I'm here to uplift my Brothers and Sisters so that can be built up and not been shattered with tons of Religious bondage and explanations be thrown at them, forcing them to jump through all the theological hoops in order to be right with God. I'm looking for the sick and weary, so that I can encourage them to fasten themselves more upon the Bread of Lord Jesus Christ so that they may eat of His Flesh and be strengthened and grow in Love, Peace, joy and Grace. I'm not interested in the intellectual Bible Scholar that can tell you every joy and tittle of their brand of Christianity and How it is the perfect, I'm interested in the broken and contrite. That's who Jesus healed, and that's why I want to bring the broken to him with prayers and supplications and with the very Love, deed, and compassion that Jesus gave them. Brothers and sisters need to be uplifted and encouraged, not beat over the head with know it all religion.

Thank you for your time and If you have any questions or would like for me to pray for something in your life, I will be here.
I love you.
~Cyrus Dabar

 

[Shimokita]

So Jesus doesn't atone for sins?

Exactly what definition of "atone" are you applying?

If a person is in purgatory that means that Jesus has saved him from the fires of hell. Is that not an atonement?

I don't remember anything in the Bible about saving a sinner from all discipline.

 

[Shimokita]

Do you ever do anything with your time instead of blurting into a conversation between two others just to tell them what they said is their opinion and Correct them? I see you doing all over here.

Well this is a forum after all. It sounds like you want is a private chat.

 

[Shimokita]

First, purgatory doesn't exist, it has no support from Scripture.

Second, sinners deserve to be punished in hell for their sin, regardless if they have access to the gospel or not. We will have to give an account of our lives, with every word and thought, on judgment day. Simply saying you didn't know about Jesus will not excuse you.

Give account of our entire lives, for every word and thought, for what purpose exactly? If a state such as purgatory does not exist then one would only seemingly need to account for two things on judgment day: 1) has the person committed any sin, no matter how small and 2) has the person "accepted Jesus into his heart as Lord and Savior" as some like to say. The answer to 1) is obviously yes. The answer to (2) decides your fate.

So for what purpose would a person need to account for every action, word, and thought he has done during his entire life? Seemingly, this would be done only to determine the amount of reward that a person will receive when he gets to heaven, while denying the possibility of any discipline for any evil things that he has done (since purgatory does not exist, after all).