Second-chance Purgatory?

[Dave-W]

Which the same Jewish authorities that fixed their canon disbelieved in and decided to reject every book they could which spoke of Him. My point is the 'Hebrew Canon' is a canon put together by people who rejected Jesus. The Septuagent Canon is more rational in that regard because it did not come with a concurrent rejection of the Messiah.

The canon was already in place; and in fact our Lord referred to it Himself.

The Law (Moses) the Prophets and the Writings (He called Psalms)

Luke 24:44
Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”​

The reference is clear.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Jesus work is finished by His Death Burial and ressurection. Can you show anywhere in the Bible that speaks of a place called purgatory where further cleansing takes place after physical death or can you even demonstrate it from any part of scripture.

I realize that you will unsoundly jump to the Roman Catholic explanation for this but I ask anyway.

You didn’t answer my question. So let’s try again. Here it is for your convenience.

So Jesus doesn't atone for sins?

Purgatory is a process of purification.

Who do you suppose is purifying the souls in Purgatory?

 

[thecolorsblend]

please help me.

What if someone who is living under the brutality of the Taliban for example and has never literally heard of Jesus as Messiah and His message of saving grace---however----->

they walked alongside of the Christian faith, without knowing they were doing so.

such that, they lived very moral christ like lives of being chaste, not lieing or stealing, not killing and honoring their parents, and so much so like a clean and up right christian, knowing there is a God, but not being aware of the salvation of jesus christ the messiah?

kept in darkness, not educated, not able to read, keeping modest, obeying their husband, loving God....but not knowing jesus death and Resurrection and saving grace.....

is this not something that god in his infinite mercy will attend to in purgatory and allow them to know the truth and accept it there?

please help me.

i was told this by catholics.

i will follow you so you can pm me.

@thecolorsblend you may pm me as well if you wish

The Church teaches that there’s a possibility that those who are invincibly ignorant of the gospel but who strive to follow God as well as they can under their circumstances might find salvation.

Best practice, of course, is to believe in Christ. But for those who don’t have the option of believing in Him, they may yet have a chance.

 

[~Zao~]

That really has nothing to do with anything at all.

Well I think if someone were to yell “ya’ll is going to hell” I would look around for the merciless person to know who they were talking to. And actually it ties in with the creation being witness too because it’s also biblical that God will destroy those who destroy the world (edit destroy the earth) . But if it’s purgatory answers your looking for it’s not something that I believe in.

 

[Blade]

I cant find this "2nd chance" in the word...that being said. Jesus said if you were blind you would have no sin. You say you see your sin remains. Kind a hard to judge someone on the TRUTH when they never heard it. Jesus rose the 3rd day.. yet do you notice He didnt go around YELLING SCREMING SHOUTING "TURN OR BURN" (forgive me Father). But.. He rose.. so He is the only way..yet how many people died that day.. never once heard of Him..lost are they?

Dont get me wrong here HE IS THE ONLY WAY IN...but..some never heard...millions never hear. I love just months ago hearing a old Jewish man that lived in NY and never heard JESUS was the only way. This was 200* something. YEAH!

 

[thecolorsblend]

Well I think if someone were to yell “ya’ll is going to hell” I would look around for the merciless person to know who they were talking to. And actually it ties in with the creation being witness too because it’s also biblical that God will destroy those who destroy the world. But if it’s purgatory answers your looking for it’s not something that I believe in.

It’s tempting to recapitulate the original post of mine to which you replied in order to illustrate that you’re not only missing the point, you’re changing the subject to something utterly irrelevant.

And who knows? It may come to that in the end.

But for right now, I recommend that you reread my post with an eye on the fact that what you’re saying here is apropos of precisely nothing.

 

[~Zao~]

Maybe what he was referring to was this verse about those who have never heard the gospel preached but have no doubt have had the revelation of God given to them thru His creation. However it says nothing about being given purgatory, it just says they are without excuse. Romans 1:18-20

For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus (Romans 2:12-16).​

That says the people who have never heard the gospel are without excuse.

It does not say they will have no mercy.

I guess I’m not understanding what your saying about no mercy vs no excuse. Can you elaborate please.

It’s tempting to recapitulate the original post of mine to which you replied in order to illustrate that you’re not only missing the point, you’re changing the subject to something utterly irrelevant.

And who knows? It may come to that in the end.

But for right now, I recommend that you reread my post with an eye on the fact that what you’re saying here is apropos of precisely nothing.

 

[Calvin_1985]

You didn’t answer my question. So let’s try again. Here it is for your convenience.

Purgatory is a process of purification.

Who do you suppose is purifying the souls in Purgatory?

Jesus word is finished with His death Burial and ressurection.

 

[thecolorsblend]

I guess I’m not understanding what your saying about no mercy vs no excuse. Can you elaborate please.

God may yet show them mercy in death.

Simple enough?

 

[thecolorsblend]

Jesus word is finished with His death Burial and ressurection.

Still not answering my question.

 

[~Zao~]

God may yet show them mercy in death.

Simple enough?

That equivalent to saying God’s ways are above our own so therefore it’s a mystery to which we can make up any unbiblical thing we want. Whereas I gave biblical statements that you said were irrelevant. What’s nothing to some the opposite is nothing to others.

 

[thecolorsblend]

That equivalent to saying God’s ways are above our own so therefore it’s a mystery

That's really not a bad way to phrase it. God is the final judge; not us.

to which we can make up any unbiblical thing we want.

To be perfectly honest with you, I have never understood what "unbiblical" even means. The wide array of uses to which the word is subjected on CF makes it tempting to suggest that it's a phony, made-up word intended to give Sacred Scripture a level of comprehensiveness which Sacred Scripture doesn't even claim for itself.

Whereas I gave biblical statements that you said were irrelevant.

Considering what your point was (and how unrelated it was to my point), I stand by that assertion.

What’s nothing to some the opposite is nothing to others.

Boy is that ever true of some side-discussions in this thread!

 

[~Zao~]

To be perfectly honest with you, I have never understood what "unbiblical" even means. The wide array of uses to which the word is subjected on CF makes it tempting to suggest that it's a phony, made-up word intended to give Sacred Scripture a level of comprehensiveness which Sacred Scripture doesn't even claim for itself.

It could be used for something like trinity but biblically there’s tons of scripture to support that belief. Or it could be purgatory to which there is none. Otoh there’s tons of scripture to support the process of sanctification to burn off the dross to purify the soul.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Or it could be purgatory to which there is none.

Um, other participants in this thread have cited the scriptures from which the Church's teachings on Purgatory are derived. Did you miss those posts?

Otoh there’s tons of scripture to support the process of sanctification to burn off the dross to purify the soul.

This is an interesting way for you to conclude your post. You mention the need for sanctification while simultaneously denying the reality that sanctification can take place in the afterlife.

Presumably, the process of sanctification is not complete for a lot of people at the time of death. And yet, that sanctification must take place. If it doesn't happen in life and you suggest it cannot happen after life... when, then, does this final sanctification take place?

 

[~Zao~]

Um, other participants in this thread have cited the scriptures from which the Church's teachings on Purgatory are derived. Did you miss those posts?

This is an interesting way for you to conclude your post. You mention the need for sanctification while simultaneously denying the reality that sanctification can take place in the afterlife.

Presumably, the process of sanctification is not complete for a lot of people at the time of death. And yet, that sanctification must take place. If it doesn't happen in life and you suggest it cannot happen after life... when, then, does this final sanctification take place?

Why do you think that full sanctification must take place? There’s plenty of scripture within the scripture of purification that states there will be those losing rewards and only escaping with their lives intact.

 

[Calvin_1985]

Still not answering my question.

I did answer it, it's just not the answer you wanted. You're trying to pull me into a debate so that you could defend what you say in order to show that you know and I don't to yourself and others. If you want to know Truth of Gods written word and what it says about our lives here and when we die physically, then lay aside all of the religious tradition your life is built upon and go to Father, The Creator Yahweh and let him show you. He will show you whether not what you believe now is true and He will do that through the Word manifest in Human Flesh, Jesus Christ. It's your choice to do so or not. If you are truly right in the state you are now, everything that you believe is 100% true, then Jesus will show you, If not, He will show you the Truth, so you have nothing to lose but yourself, the very person you are on the inside will be crucified. It's all up to you. Eat of the Flesh of Jesus, His words, they are Spirit and Life. Drink of His blood, imbibe upon His Living waters. He is the Bread from Heaven and the waters that flow from the throne of God in all wisdom and Truth.lay aside everything and come to him spiritually stripped of what you upheld, pick up His written word and let I AM guide you. Not your Church and it's teachings, not people from the forums, not youtube or facebook, not even yourself, but His Holy Spirit. Shalom.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The canon was already in place; and in fact our Lord referred to it Himself.

The Law (Moses) the Prophets and the Writings (He called Psalms)

Luke 24:44
Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”​

The reference is clear.

If it were clear as you say then the Septuagent would not have been used, or at least those who used the Septuagent would have ripped out the books you now lack. But that isn't how it happened. The canon was in place, and it was the canon of the LXX, the full OT canon. Jesus knew it and quoted from it, including the books you now lack. Christians continued to use the LXX because they were not bound by the rules of the Jewish authorities.

 

[Calvin_1985]

Why do you think that full sanctification must take place? There’s plenty of scripture within the scripture of purification that states there will be those losing rewards and only escaping with their lives intact.

Not that I believe in purgatory, I believe that Full sanctification takes place in every believer on their time on this earth. Full sanctification is not as expansive as it is made out to be by some, but is the refinement of our entire being. We are all sanctified at different rates, but Father does accordingly to the story he had written for each of us. Individual Salvation from the moment of conversion to the moment we pass away, is a Spiritual correlative of the overall Recreation of the entire world. Just as the Gospel started as seed with Jesus Messiah being that seed in the heart of the Earth, Jerusalem, it too starts in our heart. Jesus took root in Jerusalem. From there, it spread throughout the nation of Israel, the surrounding nations, then the Gospel was taken to the uttermost regions of the Earth and has been growing ever since, thereby bringing the Creation into perfect union with Our Creator. It's the same with individual Salvation. Starts in the Heart, sprouts and spreads to your Mind, your soul, and your Life. The very History of Gods Redemptive plan is seen not only the grand scale of world History and The Gospel in History, not only written of in a completed book, but is testified also in the act of Salvation working itself out over our lives.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Jesus word is finished with His death Burial and ressurection.

Jesus' work is finished, but the application of that work is ongoing. And, though you will not believe it, the application of that work includes what happens in purgatory, where sanctification is finished off.

PS. It's 'resurrection'. That is the most important event in history, with one 's' and three 'r's.

 

[thecolorsblend]

I did answer it, it's just not the answer you wanted.

You changed the subject. You answered a question I at least wasn't asking. My asking of my question was in response to a question you asked.

You're trying to pull me into a debate so that you could defend what you say in order to show that you know and I don't to yourself and others.

My posting history shows that I rarely try to convince anybody of anything. Rather, my purpose on CF is to explain what I believe.

Others can believe whatever they like.

If you want to know Truth of Gods written word and what it says about our lives here and when we die physically, then lay aside all of the religious tradition your life is built upon and go to Father, The Creator Yahweh and let him show you.

This mentality has produced tens of thousands of Protestant denominations, most of whom can't even agree on how to make a glass of Kool-Aid. Your approach has not produced corporate unity or doctrinal orthodoxy.

Your approach has a demonstrable track record of dismal failure.

The reality is that the Church does not exist in a vacuum. Rather, modern Christians are all the products of two thousand years worth of study, prayer, worship, faith and obedience. Dismissing Sacred Tradition (which most Protestants logically must do since their existence is predicated upon rejecting virtually all authority) ignores the spiritual inheritance that we have received from our predecessors.