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BobRyan

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But I repeat, you then accept people as Christians who have not been led to follow a Saturday sabbath

A "saturday Sabbath"??? Do you mean "the Bible Sabbath" or "The Word of God saying 'The seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD' Ex 20:10??

As I stated - I already accept those as "Christians" who pray to the dead, who bow down before images and promise to serve those they represent.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Why would I treat the Sabbath commandment any different -- since James 2 says not to do any such thing as that?

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

The Sabbath was given specifically to the children of Israel as an everlasting, perpetual covenant.
Lev 24:8 Every Sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually

The Ten Commandments - Ex 20
Then God spoke all these words, saying,
2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
..
7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.

The NEW Covenant - Hebrews 8
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
11 “And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen,
And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
For all will know Me,
From the least to the greatest of them.
12 “For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
And I will remember their sins no more.”

Isaiah 56:6-8 -- Sabbath blessing specifically for gentiles who choose God instead of rebellion
6 “Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the Sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”
8 The Lord God, who gathers the dispersed of Israel, declares,
“Yet others I will gather to them, to those already gathered.”


Is 66:23 'from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth.

Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was made for MANKIND"

So then you are not a member of "mankind"??
You are not a gentile that chooses to serve God rather than live in rebellion?
The Ten Commandments do not apply to you -- not even "do not take God's name in vain"?

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Where the "first commandment with a promise" in the "commandment of God" is -- "Honor your father and mother" Eph 6:2


I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.
 
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BobRyan

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But I repeat, you then accept people as Christians who have not been led to follow a Saturday sabbath

A "saturday Sabbath"??? Do you mean "the Bible Sabbath" or "The Word of God saying 'The seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD' Ex 20:10??

As I stated - I already accept those as "Christians" who pray to the dead, who bow down before images and promise to serve those they represent.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Why would I treat the Sabbath commandment any different -- since James 2 says not to do any such thing as that?

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

I accept as Christians people who have to read law written in ink

We call it "Sola Scriptura" testing to weed out false doctrine.
We call it "the Protestant Reformation"
"They studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - WERE SO" Act 17:11
2 Tim 3:16 "ALL scripture given by inspiration from God AND to be used for doctrine, instruction, correction...'
Gal 1:6-11 "though WE (Apostles) or an angel from heaven should come to you bringing a different doctrine - let him be accursed!"

Instead of "creative writing" - we choose the Bible. -- the Word of God.





though it is not a law written in ink for the believer under the new covenant.

The New Covenant - Jer 31:31-33 made with Israel - and references the LAW of God that Jeremiah and his readers knew about.

Exegesis matters.
Context matters.
Bible details matter.

"Creative writing" - not so much.
 
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BobRyan

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If the law is written on your heart as you say through the Holy Spirit He will also lead you to keep the Sabbath holy.

And indeed He does -- I can testify to that.

The Holy Spirit is not at war against the Commandments of God, against the Bible, against sound doctrine.

And you responded to the emboldened ''perfect, there you have it''

But I repeat, you then accept people as Christians who have not been led to follow a Saturday sabbath don't you, so the perfect is not so perfect is it?

I repeat - I accept people as Christians who pray to the dead and bow down before images promising to serve those that are represented by those images just as I accept those who are ignorant about the Bible Sabbath found in the Word of God
 
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BobRyan

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If the law is written on your heart as you say through the Holy Spirit He will also lead you to keep the Sabbath holy.

Though the old testiment speaks of the prohibitation of homosexuality our Holy Spirit still convicts the heart to obstain.

Perfect!. And there you have it.

The Holy Spirit is the author of the Bible - and He is not at War with His own Word - the Word of God.

Even in the New Testament "sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

The LAW that has "Honor your father and mother" as the "first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

The where if you "break one you break them all" James 2

The law that Jeremiah and his readers would have known about when he wrote that the NEW Covenant includes "The LAW written on the heart" Jer 31:31-33 (a definition for the New Covenant that remains unchanged in the New Testament Hebrews 8:6-12)

The Law that includes the very same Sabbath as the one in Isaiah 66:23 where we are told that for all eternity after the cross, in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to bow down"

The Law where even gentiles in the OT are specifically singled out for keeping the Sabbath in Isaiah 56:5-8

Sabbath that is "made for mankind" Mark 2:27 according to Christ Himself.

I asked you concerning the word justification. You seem unwilling to give an opinion on that. Why deflect, are you unsure of the answer?

I will ask once more

Does a Christian remain in a justified state if they break the law?
Does the law condemn a person if they break it?

The Law always points out sin "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; "1 John 2:1

Romans 6
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life"

READ... the Bible
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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<BR>...The Ten Commandments - Ex 20
Then God spoke all these words, saying,
2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments...
7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.
The NEW Covenant - Hebrews 8
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
11 “And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen,
And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
For all will know Me,
From the least to the greatest of them.
12 “For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
And I will remember their sins no more.”
Isaiah 56:6-8 -- Sabbath blessing specifically for gentiles who choose God instead of rebellion
6 “Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the Sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”
8 The Lord God, who gathers the dispersed of Israel, declares,

“Yet others I will gather to them, to those already gathered.”
Is 66:23 'from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth.
Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was made for MANKIND"
So then you are not a member of "mankind"??
You are not a gentile that chooses to serve God rather than live in rebellion?
The Ten Commandments do not apply to you -- not even "do not take God's name in vain"?
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Where the "first commandment with a promise" in the "commandment of God" is -- "Honor your father and mother" Eph 6:2
...<end>
What is this? My scripture trumps your scripture? How does this address the scripture I posted? All ten commandments are repeated in the NT as applying to NT Christians except for one, #4.
.....The word translated "man," Mar 2:27 is ανθρωπον/anthropon. In the singular it means "man." Only in the plural does it mean "mankind." In Mk 2:27 "anthropon" is singular.

.....In Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath" means "from week to week."
 
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BobRyan

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What is this? My scripture trumps your scripture? How does this address the scripture I posted?

No "my scripture trumps your scripture" any more than I would quote John 1:1 and then say that verse is "true" but John 1:2, and John 1:3 are not. When reading the Bible ALL are true which I why I never respond to your text with "oh no - Sabbath is not applicable to the Jews"... or "Oh no God did not inspire that text" or "we are not supposed to read that text" or any such thing.

All ten commandments are repeated in the NT as applying to NT Christians except for one, #4.
...

That is fiction - here is Bible fact -
All ten commandments are repeated in the NT except for "Do not take God's name in vain".

So then we HAVE a quote of #4 in Rev 14:7 and in Acts and in Hebrews 4 AND we have "every Sabbath" Acts 18:4 both Jews and gentiles meet for Gospel preaching.

But nothing at all like a "quote" of "Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 (which of course is no argument at all against that commandment - as we all know)


.....The word translated "man," Mar 2:27 is ανθρωπον/anthropon. In the singular it means "man." Only in the plural does it mean "mankind." In Mk 2:27 "anthropon" is singular.
.....In Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath" means "from week to week."

That is not true.

Mark 2:27 Christ did not say "Sabbath was made just for one person".
Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath"
And in context - Isaiah's readers knew exactly what that means
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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What is this? My scripture trumps your scripture? How does this address the scripture I posted? All ten commandments are repeated in the NT as applying to NT Christians except for one, #4.
.....The word translated "man," Mar 2:27 is ανθρωπον/anthropon. In the singular it means "man." Only in the plural does it mean "mankind." In Mk 2:27 "anthropon" is singular.

.....In Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath" means "from week to week."
Hi D A. Glad to see ya here.
YLT)
Isa 66:22 Isa 66:20
20And they have brought all your brethren out of all the nations, A present to Yahweh, On horses, and on chariot, and on litters, And on mules, and on dromedaries, Unto My holy mountain Jerusalem, said Yahweh, As the sons of Israel bring the present in a clean vessel, Into the house of Yahweh.
22 For, as the new heavens and the new earth that I am making, Are standing before Me, An affirmation of Yahweh! So remain doth your seed and your name.
23 And it hath been from month to month, And from sabbath to sabbath, Come do all flesh to bow themselves before Me, Said Yahweh.

In John 4, Jesus tells the Samaritan woman she will never again have to worship in Jerusalem or on that Mountain

John 4
20 our fathers in this mountain did worship, and ye --
ye say that in Jerusalem<2414> is the place where it behoveth to worship.'
21 Jesus saith to her, 'Woman, believe me, that there doth come an hour, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem<2414>, shall ye worship the Father;


Btw Der Alter, were you and/or others aware there are 2 different Greek words for Jerusalem in the NT?
[As also in the OT]

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

Hebrews 12:22
But ye have come toward Mount Zion, and to a City of the living God,

to the Heavenly Jerusalem<2419>, and to myriads of Messengers,

Revelation 21:10
and He carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and did shew to me the great City, the holy Jerusalem,<2419> coming down out of the heaven from God,


LUKE CHAPTERS 19, 21, 23 AND REVELATION "DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM 70AD"

The 2 Jerusalems in NT



.
 
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Der Alte

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All ten commandments are repeated in the NT except for "Do not take God's name in vain".
I didn't just say "repeated" I said "repeated in the NT as applying to NT Christians except for one, #4" Where are gentile Christians commanded to keep the Sabbath in the NT?
So then we HAVE a quote of #4 in Rev 14:7 and in Acts and in Hebrews 4 AND we have "every Sabbath" Acts 18:4 both Jews and gentiles meet for Gospel preaching.
Where are gentile Christians commanded to keep the Sabbath in the NT? There is no such verse in the NT. Gentile Christians are not commanded to keep the Sabbath anywhere in the NT. And virtually none of the gentile Christians would have had a copy of the OT. So how would gentile Christians in Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Thessalonica and all the other gentile cities and countries know to keep the Sabbath since it is nowhere taught in the NT.
But nothing at all like a "quote" of "Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 (which of course is no argument at all against that commandment - as we all know)
That is correct.

That is not true.
Saying that does not prove me wrong.

Mark 2:27 Christ did not say "Sabbath was made just for one person".
Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath"
And in context - Isaiah's readers knew exactly what that means
Another empty claim. Saying "I'm right and you're wrong! Am to! Nuh huh!" Does not make it true. I checked the Greek of Mk 2:27 and I checked a lexicon. If Jesus had intended to say "mankind" He would have said ανθρωπος/anthropos, plural, instead ανθρωπον/anthropon, singular.
 
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mmksparbud

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(You don't need to apologize for taking the time you need. I have no expectation of any instant responses. :) )

See, now you are completely redefining what worship is and severely limiting it to a very narrow concept. Whenever we gather together in his name is worship regardless of what we are doing. You don't think having a meal with the transformed Christ in the flesh isn't worship? We're talking about communion with him in his very person! Wow, I would be overcome had I been there!

The reason you can't find much if any relevance to the sabbath is that there is no relevance to the sabbath. They were meeting together on the first day of the week on all of those occasions not to observe a sabbath day, but to worship God and to celebrate Christ's resurrection. That's what a worship service for non-sabbatarian Christians is all about! Maybe sabbatarians meet together only to corporately have a sabbath day and whatever that entails, but that's not what the rest of us are doing or at least the why of what we're doing. We meet because of all the stuff listed above and more. It's about honoring and glorifying God...worshiping him and honoring him. It doesn't even have to be on Sunday or any other day of the week and many congregations offer services on other days too. Nothing whatsoever to do with sabbath because Gentiles are not under the Sinai covenant that includes a ritual sabbath day and never have been.

You seem to want so much for the first day of the week to have no meaning that you have to creatively make it appear as if nothing significant happened on that day, but in reality, practically everything of significance in the new testament happened on that day.

If observing a sabbath was of primary importance, then not only would all the apostles, disciples, and even Jesus himself be proclaiming it throughout the gospels and letters, but all the significant events pertaining to Christians (as distinguished from Jews) would have also happened on the sabbath, but that's not the case. The sabbath is the sabbath and was specifically for the Israelites at Sinai and their descendants, and "The Way" noted the first day of the week as Christ Jesus, God himself in the flesh, was resurrected that day, and it was his resurrection that changed everything. Without the resurrection, absolutely none of it would matter because we would all be condemned no matter how many laws and sabbath days we diligently followed.


It has been pointed out that the Sabbath was a routine for Jesus and all disciples---no need to shout out an already established fact. What would have to be shouted out would have been any change to that. As the change on circumcision brought about an upheaval, a change on the Sabbath would have brought about a great upheaval.
No--not redefining worship---this is what God said the Sabbath is about:
in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Isa_58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

As I said before---Cain felt he could worship God as he chose to do so, instead of how God said.
No there is no verse that states to Adam and Eve to keep the Sabbath. Now--where is the verse that states--you will keep the 1st day of the week as a Sabbath in honor of my resurrection?
Where is any verse that states anything about having changed anything about the sabbath?
Yes, without the resurrection we would have nothing. But then, honoring your father and not taking the Lords name in vain wouldn't be important any more than keeping the sabbath would be. Neither would any of the 10.
No one questions any of the other commandments--No one says that you don't have to not murder, or covet. No one says we can take the Lords' name if vain now, no one says that any of the others don't matter any more.
It is just strange that everyone goes through so much trouble trying to say the 4th is the only one that doesn't matter anymore. So because the law is written in the heart now, that means it's no big deal if you steal? The Holy Spirit leads you to keep all the other commandments---just not the 4th.

Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Circumcision was never a part of the 10---it was strictly from the law of Moses--kept outside the Ark. None of those are now to be kept. The 10 were in the Ark. The Ark was made after the one in heaven.

Rev_11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
His testament is what He wrote with His own hand on tables of stone--- there in the heavenly Ark as well.
Exo_25:21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.

Moses commanded the Israelites to place the book of the law beside the Ark.

Deu 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
Deu 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
Deu_31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

It was the law of Moses --kept outside the Ark--that is where circumcision was---not inside the Ark.

The disciples kept sabbath after the resurrection.

Act 16:5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.
Act_13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
Act_13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
Act_13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Act_13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
Act_15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Act_16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
Act_17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Act_18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
 
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Karola

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Perfect!. And there you have it.
If the law is written on your heart as you say through the Holy Spirit He will also lead you to keep the Sabbath holy.

Your response was to the above. Only problem is, you accept people as Christians who are not led to keep a saturday sabbath, and you cannot be a Christian unless the law is in your heart and mind. So what you say is perfect, you must believe is imperfect
 
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Karola

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READ... the Bible
I have read it, have you understood it?

For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace Rom6:14

Being free from righteousness of obeying the law brings victory over sin.
The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56

Read prayerfully

People who do not understand the new covenant, always think if you speak of righteousness/justification apart from obeying the law, you are inferring a licence to sin
 
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Karola

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And indeed He does -- I can testify to that.
And I repeat, your belief that you may or may not be conscious of sin through the law is not biblical.
You can testify to reading what is written in ink and then, and only then deciding you want to follow a specific Saturday sabbath. No seventh day Adventist, instinctively knew from within, without reading firstly what is written in ink, they should observe a Saturday sabbath. Therefore, that proves, that particular law as written is not written in the mind and placed in the heart of believers by the Spirit of the living God, if it were, you would not have had to come to the conclusion you did by reading what is written in ink, that is not where the law is for the believer under the new covenant according to the bible!!
Therefore, as the Spirit of the living God did not write that law in yours or anyone elses mind or heart it becomes a ''disputable matter'' You are entitled to take whichever view you choose. Paul wrote of such:

Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarrelling over disputable matters Rom14:1

Two are mentioned in the chapter:
One person considers one day more sacred/holy than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. verse 5

I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean verse 14

Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. verse20
 
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I repeat - I accept people as Christians who pray to the dead and bow down before images promising to serve those that are represented by those images

And I repeat, I accept as Christians people who only know what law they believe God wants them to follow by reading law written in ink in the OT. That is not where the law is for believers.
And I also repeat, catholics would Dispute your understanding of their belief concerning the above. So why not chat to them about it. It still leaves you believing through the law we may or may not become conscious of sin. That's not written in my bible
 
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klutedavid

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It has been pointed out that the Sabbath was a routine for Jesus and all disciples---no need to shout out an already established fact. What would have to be shouted out would have been any change to that. As the change on circumcision brought about an upheaval, a change on the Sabbath would have brought about a great upheaval.
No--not redefining worship---this is what God said the Sabbath is about:
in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Isa_58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

As I said before---Cain felt he could worship God as he chose to do so, instead of how God said.
No there is no verse that states to Adam and Eve to keep the Sabbath. Now--where is the verse that states--you will keep the 1st day of the week as a Sabbath in honor of my resurrection?
Where is any verse that states anything about having changed anything about the sabbath?
Yes, without the resurrection we would have nothing. But then, honoring your father and not taking the Lords name in vain wouldn't be important any more than keeping the sabbath would be. Neither would any of the 10.
No one questions any of the other commandments--No one says that you don't have to not murder, or covet. No one says we can take the Lords' name if vain now, no one says that any of the others don't matter any more.
It is just strange that everyone goes through so much trouble trying to say the 4th is the only one that doesn't matter anymore. So because the law is written in the heart now, that means it's no big deal if you steal? The Holy Spirit leads you to keep all the other commandments---just not the 4th.

Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Circumcision was never a part of the 10---it was strictly from the law of Moses--kept outside the Ark. None of those are now to be kept. The 10 were in the Ark. The Ark was made after the one in heaven.

Rev_11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
His testament is what He wrote with His own hand on tables of stone--- there in the heavenly Ark as well.
Exo_25:21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.

Moses commanded the Israelites to place the book of the law beside the Ark.

Deu 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
Deu 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
Deu_31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

It was the law of Moses --kept outside the Ark--that is where circumcision was---not inside the Ark.

The disciples kept sabbath after the resurrection.

Act 16:5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.
Act_13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
Act_13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
Act_13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Act_13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
Act_15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Act_16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
Act_17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Act_18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
On what day do you gather to break the bread, and celebrate the resurrection of Jesus?
 
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BobRyan

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What is this? My scripture trumps your scripture? How does this address the scripture I posted?

No "my scripture trumps your scripture" any more than I would quote John 1:1 and then say that verse is "true" but John 1:2, and John 1:3 are not. When reading the Bible ALL are true which I why I never respond to your text with "oh no - Sabbath is not applicable to the Jews"... or "Oh no God did not inspire that text" or "we are not supposed to read that text" or any such thing.

All ten commandments are repeated in the NT as applying to NT Christians except for one, #4.
...

That is fiction - here is Bible fact -
All ten commandments are repeated in the NT except for "Do not take God's name in vain".

So then we HAVE a quote of #4 in Rev 14:7 and in Acts and in Hebrews 4 AND we have "every Sabbath" Acts 18:4 both Jews and gentiles meet for Gospel preaching.

But nothing at all like a "quote" of "Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 (which of course is no argument at all against that commandment - as we all know)


.....The word translated "man," Mar 2:27 is ανθρωπον/anthropon. In the singular it means "man." Only in the plural does it mean "mankind." In Mk 2:27 "anthropon" is singular.
.....In Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath" means "from week to week."

That is not true.

Mark 2:27 Christ did not say "Sabbath was made just for one person".
Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath"
And in context - Isaiah's readers knew exactly what that means

I didn't just say "repeated" I said "repeated in the NT as applying to NT Christians except for one, #4"

Which is still fiction -
But this is still Bible fact -
All ten commandments are repeated in the NT except for "Do not take God's name in vain".


Where are gentile Christians commanded to keep the Sabbath in the NT?

Mark 2:27 Sabbath made for "mankind" - what did you think gentiles are - Elephants?

Is 66:23 "for ALL MANKIND" to worship God "from Sabbath to Sabbath"
Isaiah 56:6-8 gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping
Hebrews 4 "there REMAINS a Sabbath rest for the people of God"
2 Tim 3:16 "ALL scripture given by inspiration from God AND to be used for doctrine"
Bible details matter.
James 2 - he who breaks one of the commandments - breaks them all
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God"
Eph 6:2 the same unit of Ten where "Honor your father and mother" is the "first commandment WITH a promise"

Where are gentile Christians specifically singled out to keep the command "do not take God's name in vain" in the NT? There is no such verse. But that fact is total fluff-nonsense in support of the idea that gentile Christians can go ahead and "take God's name in vain" and we all know it.

Where are gentile Christians commanded to keep the Sabbath in the NT? There is no such verse in the NT.


Which was just debunked.

1. We are part of mankind
2. The Ten are still a unit
3. we can't "make stuff up" as if that is a good rule for deleting one of God's Commandments.

For "in vain do they worship Me teaching for doctrine the commandments of men"
Mark 7:6-13
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men
.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
I repeat - I accept people as Christians who pray to the dead and bow down before images promising to serve those that are represented by those images

And I repeat, I accept as Christians people who only know what law they believe God wants them to follow by reading law written in ink

Sola scriptura

"They studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the apostle Paul -- WERE SO" Acts 17:11

Protestants call it "sola scriptura"
 
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Cannot have been the Jewish Sabbath day as that was a day of rest.

Bible text please.

At the time of Christ's last Supper - the Passover was "on Sabbath" - it is the Lord's Supper.

Or did you mean "Friday evening" since the communion message from Christ is -
1 Cor 11:
25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me. 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.”
 
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bekkilyn

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It has been pointed out that the Sabbath was a routine for Jesus and all disciples---no need to shout out an already established fact. What would have to be shouted out would have been any change to that. As the change on circumcision brought about an upheaval, a change on the Sabbath would have brought about a great upheaval.

An established fact among whom specifically? The Jews! Jesus and his twelve disciples were Jews. Paul was a Pharisee...also a Jew. The Sabbath was established as a tradition ONLY for Jews! The argument among Jewish Christian leadership wasn't *just* about circumcision...it was about whether newly converted Gentiles needed to become Jews and observe all the Jewish practices and customs in order to be Christians, and the answer to that turned out to be a huge NO.

The only things Gentiles were asked to do, and not because God commanded it, but only to preserve unity in the church between Jews and Gentiles, were to abstain from sexual immorality, and to abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled.

That's it. Nothing else was required of Gentiles. No circumcision, no special diet laws, no Jewish feast days, and no sabbath.

No--not redefining worship---this is what God said the Sabbath is about:
in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Isa_58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

We aren't talking about the sabbath, but about worshiping God and the first day of the week is the day most Christians decided to worship, not because of any obligation whatsoever to observe a sabbath, but to celebrate the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

It is not about the sabbath.
It is not about the sabbath.
It is not about the sabbath.

It was never about the sabbath.

Most Christians do not observe a sabbath because we are not required to observe a ritual sabbath day under the new covenant, and if we are non-Jewish Christians, we were *never* required to observe a ritual sabbath day every week.

Sunday worship is about the resurrection.
Sunday worship is about the resurrection.
Sunday worship is about the resurrection.

As I said before---Cain felt he could worship God as he chose to do so, instead of how God said.

Although SDA has decided on their own interpretation for why God rejected Cain's sacrifice, we don't really know the reason. It's guesswork because we don't have enough information available to know God's motives and so all we know is that he rejected it.

No there is no verse that states to Adam and Eve to keep the Sabbath.

Thank you, finally someone admits there is no verse commanding Adam and Eve to keep the sabbath. (Now if only certain other people would admit there is no verse in the NT commanding Gentiles to keep a sabbath.)

Now--where is the verse that states--you will keep the 1st day of the week as a Sabbath in honor of my resurrection?

Nowhere, because that's not what Christians are doing. 1st day of the week has nothing whatsoever to do with sabbath. It's about celebrating the day of the Lord's resurrection, commonly called the Lord's Day, because that was the day of his resurrection.

Where is any verse that states anything about having changed anything about the sabbath?

Nowhere, because nobody changed the sabbath. The sabbath is the sabbath, and worshiping God on the first day of the week in celebration of Jesus' resurrection are two different things.

Yes, without the resurrection we would have nothing. But then, honoring your father and not taking the Lords name in vain wouldn't be important any more than keeping the sabbath would be. Neither would any of the 10.

Exactly, because without the Jesus' resurrection, all of those things would be nothing, filthy rags so to speak. Without Jesus, there is no one to proclaim us "not guilty". We could honor our mother and father all day long for 365 days a year and still be condemned because there was no resurrection and no future hope of one.

No one questions any of the other commandments--No one says that you don't have to not murder, or covet. No one says we can take the Lords' name if vain now, no one says that any of the others don't matter any more.

Because the ritual weekly sabbath observation is a ceremonial law given to the Israelites at Sinai as a visible sign to mark the covenant God made with them, to set them apart from the other nations who were not under that covenant.

Even atheists know murder and coveting to be wrong because it's morally universal. While they do not acknowledge it comes from God, they instinctively know it to be true because the truth of it is absolute. People don't instinctively observe a seventh day sabbath because it doesn't have anything to do with morality. That wasn't its purpose in the covenant.

It is just strange that everyone goes through so much trouble trying to say the 4th is the only one that doesn't matter anymore. So because the law is written in the heart now, that means it's no big deal if you steal? The Holy Spirit leads you to keep all the other commandments---just not the 4th.

The Holy Spirit doesn't lead you to keep the other commandments because they are part of the ten commandments. The Holy Spirit leads you to do things like no murder or steal because murder and stealing aren't part of God's inherent nature. God *cannot* murder or steal, so God isn't capable of leading people into doing those things. The ritual sabbath observance was *created* by God for a particular purpose.

Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Circumcision was never a part of the 10---it was strictly from the law of Moses--kept outside the Ark. None of those are now to be kept. The 10 were in the Ark. The Ark was made after the one in heaven.

Like the ritual weekly sabbath is a sign of the covenant God made with the Israelites at Sinai, circumcision was a sign of the covenant God made directly with Abraham. A different covenant, but still ongoing at the time of the Sinai covenant.

Genesis 17:3-11
3 Then Abram fell on his face; and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You shall be the ancestor of a multitude of nations. 5 No longer shall your name be Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you the ancestor of a multitude of nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant between me and you, and your offspring after you throughout their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. 8 And I will give to you, and to your offspring after you, the land where you are now an alien, all the land of Canaan, for a perpetual holding; and I will be their God.” 9 God said to Abraham, “As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you.​

Rev_11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
His testament is what He wrote with His own hand on tables of stone--- there in the heavenly Ark as well.
Exo_25:21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.

So who is still under the law that the heavenly ark represents?

Unbelievers.

Believers are not subject to written requirements that were taken away with Christ.

Moses commanded the Israelites to place the book of the law beside the Ark.

Deu 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
Deu 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
Deu_31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

It was the law of Moses --kept outside the Ark--that is where circumcision was---not inside the Ark.

Circumcision is a sign of a different covenant.

What was the ark called? The ark of the *covenant*. Which covenant? The covenant God made specifically with the Israelites at Sinai.

The disciples kept sabbath after the resurrection.

Many Jewish disciples kept sabbath along with all the other Jewish customs and traditions after the resurrection, but Gentile disciples did not. They were never under obligation to any of them.

Act 16:5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.
Act_13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
Act_13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
Act_13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Act_13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
Act_15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Act_16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
Act_17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Act_18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

These were not Gentile *Christians*. He preached in the synagogues to witness to and convert Jews (and Gentile converts to Judaism) to Christianity. (And Gentile pagans would show up too, similar to how crowds would follow Jesus around when they heard he was in town.)

Gentile *Christians* met in each others homes for worship, not in Jewish synagogues.
 
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