SDA

[bekkilyn]

You don't know the reason??? Throughout the bible, from the very first offense in the garden--animal sacrifice is what pointed to Jesus. It is what all patriarchs and later priests did. How can you not know?
Abel offered up what he was supposed to, he obeyed God. Cain did not. You do not see that? You think we are making something up when it is glaringly obvious??? Cain wanted to do his own thing instead of what God said. He did not know God--and sin was laying at his door.

You're assuming that because God required animal sacrifices at other times that it automatically applies to Cain and Abel, but there is nothing anywhere in that part of scripture that says anything about that being the reason. Remember what he said in Hosea 6:6 "“I don’t want your sacrifices—I want your love; I don’t want your offerings—I want you to know me."

If I were to assume anything, I would assume that Cain had a heart problem and it really wasn't about the physical offering at all.

So no, it's not glaringly obvious.

You think we do not know our God? I know Him, not just about Him. Throughout my past He has been there, even through my anger He was with me. These past 2 years He was right beside me. I went to surgery 2 years ago in Jan. I did not wake up from it. I went into a 2 month coma, on a ventilator. All I remember about it is this----I was in a dream--in a room full of water all the way to the ceiling, I was trapped in a very thick white and green net that I was desperately trying to pull apart to get out and could not. I could not breathe--all of a sudden, I stopped struggling. I said--"whatever you want, Lord, whatever you want." It did not matter, alive or dead--whatever He wanted. I felt the most enormous sense of peace I have ever felt in my life. I felt totally wrapped in the arms of God, I just felt like I had melted into them, and I could breathe and I fell asleep and everything went black. I believe that is when I died. Next thing I know, I am waking up in a hospital bed and I was told it was 2 months later.
I had to go to rehab to learn how to sit up in bed, how to stand, how to take a few steps, hold a glass of water and brush my teeth. I knew He was with me and I got well.
My husband had not been hopeful. He just knew I was going to die and he lost hope and went back to drinking--for 3 months he did nothing but drink. By the time he realized I was coming home, it was too late. The damage had been done. when I came home it was to a man without hope and sick to nearly death. I was at first angry that God brought me back just to see this. I was devastated, but clung to my God. It took about a year--my husband getting sicker and sicker and he went into the hospital for 2 months. During those 2 months he came close to death 6 times, including a total cardiac arrest. Each time, God brought him out of it. I just kept praying that my husband would give his heart to the Lord. Finally they could do no more for him, he came home under hospice. He came in asking for 3 things--a smooch, a coke, and of all things---prayer! I did all of them. I read the bible to him frequently and then I asked him if he would give his heart to God, he said --quite frustratedly--I don't know how. I had him repeat the sinners prayer after me. I knew he was just repeating words, but then all of a sudden, he just broke through praying aloud on his own and I knew he meant it! I had prayed for that moment for 28 years.
At one point, either before or after this. I felt a very strong presence--a dark thing, ugly and scary and I grabbed my bible and started reading aloud, very loud. I kept reading and it left, I felt it was a demon come to try to take him before he could give his heart to God. Didn't work.
He was home for only 2 days. On the 2nd day, as I held him in my arms, he looked up at me smiled peacefully and died. But I was overjoyed that he had died not just in my arms, but with the arms of God wrapped around us both. Next we meet, he will no longer have that horrible thirst.
He has stayed with me throughout my trails after his death. I qualified for a loan that paid over 45,000 towards my mortgage reducing my payments by half. I just have SS benefits. I can now stay in my home. If I stay in this home for 5 years, I do not have to pay back the loan---they write it off!!!
My God is an awesome God. His Holy Spirit has led me through many trials and I have no doubt of Him and nothing can sway me away. Throw whatever rocks you want.

Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I believe you, and I know many SDA in person who I have no doubt love Jesus with both their minds and hearts, and so I am not in this discussion with you to throw stones. I strongly disagree with parts of SDA doctrine as you know, but that doesn't mean that I believe all SDA are condemned because they feel an obligation to be under law. I do very much believe that part of Christ's purpose was to set us free from the burdens of the laws of sin and death and that as Christians, we are already proclaimed "not guilty" of it.

I also do not believe in "once saved always saved" because that takes away our choice to intentionally and willfully reject God's grace, but I don't believe losing our salvation is as easy as finding out you've been worshiping God on the wrong day of the week. We should be worshiping God *every* day and our hearts and minds with him all the time.

 

[Der Alte]

And all the people shall say amen.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
1 Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
Colossians 2:16-17
(16) Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
(17) These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
Colossians 2:20-22
(20) Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules:
(21) "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"?
(22) These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings.

​

 

[klutedavid]

Thank you, and amen!

I don't understand what's not to get about that, but I suppose if you were brought up to think otherwise, it's difficult to get out of lawkeeping mode and into the mode of being Spirit-led.

The fact, that they reject church history for three centuries, is what really puzzles me the most.

They are taught that the Roman Catholic church changed the Sabbath to Sunday. The RCC had nothing to do with the council of Laodicea (363 AD), the bishop of Rome did not even attend that council!

The council of Laodicea tells us that both the Sabbath rest and the Sunday celebration, were both in full swing across the Christian world.

That is recorded church history, no one can argue with the facts.

 

[bekkilyn]

The fact, that they reject church history for three centuries, is what really puzzles me the most.

They are taught that the Roman Catholic church changed the Sabbath to Sunday. The RCC had nothing to do with the council of Laodicea (363 AD), the bishop of Rome did not even attend that council!

The council of Laodicea tells us that both the Sabbath rest and the Sunday celebration, were both in full swing across the Christian world.

That is recorded church history, no one can argue with the facts.

I've even directly quoted some of these historians in posts that proves beyond any doubt that Christians were meeting for worship together on the first day of the week long, long before Constantine only to get denial. I know while many Christians in general aren't very familiar with church history and church traditions, some denominations seem to have their very own version of church history that leaves the rest of everyone else scratching their heads. it's like some sort of cognitive dissonance is going on.

 

[klutedavid]

I've even directly quoted some of these historians in posts that proves beyond any doubt that Christians were meeting for worship together on the first day of the week long, long before Constantine only to get denial. I know while many Christians in general aren't very familiar with church history and church traditions, some denominations seem to have their very own version of church history that leaves the rest of everyone else scratching their heads. it's like some sort of cognitive dissonance is going on.

Exactly, both the Protestants and the Roman Catholics, furnish their own interpretations of church history.

Regardless of what any Christian organization decides to omit or emphasize. The history of the early church through four whole centuries, is recorded in black and white.

Unfortunately, all the major church movements are utterly exposed, for anyone willing to read authentic church history.

 

[mmksparbud]

You're assuming that because God required animal sacrifices at other times that it automatically applies to Cain and Abel, but there is nothing anywhere in that part of scripture that says anything about that being the reason. Remember what he said in Hosea 6:6 "“I don’t want your sacrifices—I want your love; I don’t want your offerings—I want you to know me."

If I were to assume anything, I would assume that Cain had a heart problem and it really wasn't about the physical offering at all.

So no, it's not glaringly obvious.

Only because you don't want to see it. How much more obvious do you need it? It plainly says

"And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect"

Cain didn't feel like offering what God said to--He offered what he felt like. And yes---that is exactly what it was---a heart problem. He went by his own inclinations, and didn't know God. It was what Adan and Eve did---they went by what they felt like doing, not by what God had said to do.

If that's the case, then why are they not doing all of this celebrating, resurrecting, communioning, meeting, eating, being filled with the Holy Spirit on the sabbath rather than on the first day of the week? Did God just intentionally do all of these things just to confuse us and so that we would argue about it some 2000 plus years later. No, because he intended his ritual weekly sabbath for a particular purpose for a particular people and for a particular length of time. The ritual weekly sabbath is done and over. Jesus, our true rest, is everlasting, just like the garden was an everlasting sabbath, just like God's kingdom is an everlasting sabbath. No weekly rituals required.

That's because you still do not understand what the Sabbath is about. It is not a day about ourselves.
Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
Isa 58:14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD;

It is all about God--honoring Him. It is not a day for partying, to feel our own pleasures---the day of Pentecost was about the disciples, honoring them with the Holy Spirit. These other meetings were about what they wanted---and needed to do, the Sabbath is strictly about God. As such it will never be over. So they met on other days for that--and why wouldn't they eat on those occasions? Nobody said the Sabbath consisted of not eating!

Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

You think that Jesus was not led by the Holy Spirit before His resurrection? You think He did not know that He was the sacrifice and therefore no other sacrificial days would be needed later and if that had included the sabbath why in the world would He say:

Mat_5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Luk_16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Why after His resurrection did He not say one word about not keeping the Sabbath anymore? If Jesus had said anything about any other day or it not being needed anymore -- this conversation would not be taking place. He said no such thing. Heaven and earth have not passed away yet and will not until He makes it all new.

 

[mmksparbud]

I also do not believe in "once saved always saved" because that takes away our choice to intentionally and willfully reject God's grace, but I don't believe losing our salvation is as easy as finding out you've been worshiping God on the wrong day of the week. We should be worshiping God *every* day and our hearts and minds with him all the time.

You can't have a Sabbath every day---"for 6 days shalt thou labor." Part of Sabbath is to cease from labor. Not ever working would be laziness and you'd starve to death! Even in the garden Adam and Eve had work--they were to take care of the Garden and the animals---what exactly that meant we don't know. But even in the new earth we will have work---we will have food to grow and things to make and all manor of labor and we will still need to set that aside for one day to concentrate on God and God alone. That is why we will gather on Sabbath to worship God on the new earth. We will honor god every day--on this earth and the new one--we walk with God every day--but we cease to work completely on the Sabbath to think on Him only.

 

[bekkilyn]

Only because you don't want to see it. How much more obvious do you need it? It plainly says

"And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect"

Cain didn't feel like offering what God said to--He offered what he felt like. And yes---that is exactly what it was---a heart problem. He went by his own inclinations, and didn't know God. It was what Adan and Eve did---they went by what they felt like doing, not by what God had said to do.

But you don't know that it was specifically because God demanded an animal sacrifice and Cain simply refused like you previously implied. That's not obvious. We're not told the actual reason.

That's because you still do not understand what the Sabbath is about. It is not a day about ourselves.
Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
Isa 58:14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD;

I never said it was about ourselves. All along I've been saying it's about Christ...the weekly ritual observance of the Sinai covenant was a shadow of the TRUE sabbath, which is Christ himself. Christ doesn't say, "Come to me all who are weary and the *sabbath* shall give you rest." He says that HE will give rest. Being in Christ is like being in the garden before the fall...an eternal and everlasting sabbath that is always ongoing, and not just a shadow ritual that happens one day out of a week. The shadow ritual was merely a sign of the Sinai covenant and became obsolete when Christ fulfilled it.

It is all about God--honoring Him. It is not a day for partying, to feel our own pleasures---the day of Pentecost was about the disciples, honoring them with the Holy Spirit. These other meetings were about what they wanted---and needed to do, the Sabbath is strictly about God. As such it will never be over. So they met on other days for that--and why wouldn't they eat on those occasions? Nobody said the Sabbath consisted of not eating!

None of those things were about the disciples or anyone besides God. God is the subject of the entire bible. It is ALL about him and all of those occasions were all about him. It is all strictly about God. That's the entire point of scriptures...to help us to get to know God and his character in the way he interacts with his creation.

Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

This is talking about the TRUE rest of being in Christ, not the weekly ritual that was the sign of the Sinai covenant and only a shadow of Christ.

You think that Jesus was not led by the Holy Spirit before His resurrection? You think He did not know that He was the sacrifice and therefore no other sacrificial days would be needed later and if that had included the sabbath why in the world would He say:

Mat_5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Luk_16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Why after His resurrection did He not say one word about not keeping the Sabbath anymore? If Jesus had said anything about any other day or it not being needed anymore -- this conversation would not be taking place. He said no such thing. Heaven and earth have not passed away yet and will not until He makes it all new.

The old heaven and earth HAVE passed away. If you look of other parts of scripture, some of which I've quoted in earlier posts, you will see that when scripture speaks of "heaven and earth" it is referencing Jerusalem. So while in the future, we'll have a new heaven and earth and a new Jerusalem, the old heaven and earth has passed and was utterly demolished in 70 AD when Rome destroyed both the Temple and Jerusalem...and Jesus predicted it all when he told his disciples that not one stone will be left upon another.

Therefore, all the jots and tittles have been fulfilled. ALL the law has been fulfilled and the old covenant is obsolete, and Gentiles were never under it in the first place.

Now we focus on our TRUE sabbath who is Jesus Christ and is not dependent on ANY day of the week.

 

[bekkilyn]

You can't have a Sabbath every day---"for 6 days shalt thou labor." Part of Sabbath is to cease from labor. Not ever working would be laziness and you'd starve to death! Even in the garden Adam and Eve had work--they were to take care of the Garden and the animals---what exactly that meant we don't know. But even in the new earth we will have work---we will have food to grow and things to make and all manor of labor and we will still need to set that aside for one day to concentrate on God and God alone. That is why we will gather on Sabbath to worship God on the new earth. We will honor god every day--on this earth and the new one--we walk with God every day--but we cease to work completely on the Sabbath to think on Him only.

This is an assumption of your church tradition and not something that is actually stated in scriptures. Yes, I'm aware that God put Adam and Eve in the garden to tend it, but it wasn't until after the fall that it required the sweat of their brow, and there is nothing that indicates that God made any other command to them about how to function in their day to day lives other than not to eat of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. When Adam and Eve were in the garden, they were in a state of perpetual sabbath regardless of whether they tended it or not. There wasn't an evening or morning to mark God's seventh day, and that's important.

You are taking a ritual observance that was specifically created for a particular group of people for a particular purpose and taking it out of context to apply to everyone.

 

[mmksparbud]

But you don't know that it was specifically because God demanded an animal sacrifice and Cain simply refused like you previously implied. That's not obvious. We're not told the actual reason.

It says God had no resect for Cain's offering but He did for Abel's---that is plain enough! Abel's was animals--Cain's was produce--that is plain enough.

I never said it was about ourselves. All along I've been saying it's about Christ...the weekly ritual observance of the Sinai covenant was a shadow of the TRUE sabbath, which is Christ himself. Christ doesn't say, "Come to me all who are weary and the *sabbath* shall give you rest." He says that HE will give rest. Being in Christ is like being in the garden before the fall...an eternal and everlasting sabbath that is always ongoing, and not just a shadow ritual that happens one day out of a week. The shadow ritual was merely a sign of the Sinai covenant and became obsolete when Christ fulfilled it.

He gave us rest---He gave us the Sabbath and He said how to observe it. We are to spend it with Him, yes He is our rest, so stop all work and thinking of ourselves and think upon our Creator. The Sabbath was never a shadow of "things' to come"---it always had pointed back to God as the Creator. Never did it point to anything else.

None of those things were about the disciples or anyone besides God. God is the subject of the entire bible. It is ALL about him and all of those occasions were all about him. It is all strictly about God. That's the entire point of scriptures...to help us to get to know God and his character in the way he interacts with his creation.

Yes, God is the subject of the entire bible--the sanctity of the Sabbath is all about God, Pentecost was about the Holy Spirit descending on man. It took the object to what happens to man, Sabbath is about God as Creator, it is not about celebrating His resurrection. We do that everyday and need not cease from labor for that.

The old heaven and earth HAVE passed away. If you look of other parts of scripture, some of which I've quoted in earlier posts, you will see that when scripture speaks of "heaven and earth" it is referencing Jerusalem. So while in the future, we'll have a new heaven and earth and a new Jerusalem, the old heaven and earth has passed and was utterly demolished in 70 AD when Rome destroyed both the Temple and Jerusalem...and Jesus predicted it all when he told his disciples that not one stone will be left upon another.

Therefore, all the jots and tittles have been fulfilled. ALL the law has been fulfilled and the old covenant is obsolete, and Gentiles were never under it in the first place.

Now we focus on our TRUE sabbath who is Jesus Christ and is not dependent on ANY day of the week.

Talk about a stretch! Jesus in no way meant that.
2Pe_3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Mar_13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Even in the new earth--His word will still abide--and His words still include the 10.
The Sabbath will not be stricken from His words because they are Him.

You are, of course, free to do what you think, we are just explaining what we think.

 

[mmksparbud]

This is an assumption of your church tradition and not something that is actually stated in scriptures. Yes, I'm aware that God put Adam and Eve in the garden to tend it, but it wasn't until after the fall that it required the sweat of their brow, and there is nothing that indicates that God made any other command to them about how to function in their day to day lives other than not to eat of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. When Adam and Eve were in the garden, they were in a state of perpetual sabbath regardless of whether they tended it or not. There wasn't an evening or morning to mark God's seventh day, and that's important.

You are taking a ritual observance that was specifically created for a particular group of people for a particular purpose and taking it out of context to apply to everyone.

Tradition has nothing to do with the obvious reasoning that if you do no labor at all, you will starve to death. It says to work for 6 days--no work on the Sabbath and the Sabbath was created at Creation, made for man not for the Jew only---that later it was a special sign for the Jew also is not to mean that the original function of it is for all and all included all the great multitude that came with the Jews that were not Jews. The covenant at Sinai was for all who would join the people of God.
So there was no evening or morning on the Sabbath---but there were every other day before that? The sun and moon were still there---the earth still rotates. That didn't just stop. There will be no need of the sun in the new earth---doesn't say there will not be one. Jesus is the light. Jesus did not stay with Adam and Eve all the time--physically--
Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
He came to them towards sundown. There was still a morning and evening---God set that cycle in motion with the previous 6 days. His work ended---not what He set in motion.

 

[bekkilyn]

It says God had no resect for Cain's offering but He did for Abel's---that is plain enough! Abel's was animals--Cain's was produce--that is plain enough.

Where does no respect for Cain's offering get interpreted as God not liking his offering specifically because it wasn't an animal sacrifice. Maybe it had oregano on it instead of parsley and nothing whatsoever to do with it not being made of animals. We simply don't know and while it is fine to suggest that *maybe* it's because God only wanted animals, to state it as absolute fact is reading into that passage what isn't there.

He gave us rest---He gave us the Sabbath

Yes, he gave us Jesus Christ, who is our sabbath rest.

and He said how to observe it.

He told the Israelites how to observe a weekly sabbath ritual intended as a sign of their covenant at Sinai. It was for no one else. That's stated very clearly in the Jewish scriptures that it was made for them and their descendants alone and was intended as temporary until Christ came and fulfilled ALL of the law.

We are to spend it with Him, yes He is our rest, so stop all work and thinking of ourselves and think upon our Creator. The Sabbath was never a shadow of "things' to come"---it always had pointed back to God as the Creator. Never did it point to anything else.

The true sabbath rest being Jesus Christ himself is not a shadow. The weekly ritual sabbath given to the Israelites as a sign of their covenant was a shadow.

Yes, God is the subject of the entire bible--the sanctity of the Sabbath is all about God, Pentecost was about the Holy Spirit descending on man. It took the object to what happens to man, Sabbath is about God as Creator, it is not about celebrating His resurrection. We do that everyday and need not cease from labor for that.

That's what the first day of the week is for...to celebrate his resurrection. Yes, we can celebrate it every day, but the reason it is typically celebrated on the first day of the week is because Christ actually rose on the first day of the week.

Talk about a stretch! Jesus in no way meant that.
2Pe_3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Mar_13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Even in the new earth--His word will still abide--and His words still include the 10.
The Sabbath will not be stricken from His words because they are Him.

You are, of course, free to do what you think, we are just explaining what we think.

For I am about to create new heavens
and a new earth;
the former things shall not be remembered
or come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I am creating;
for I am about to create Jerusalem as a joy,
and its people as a delight.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
and delight in my people;
no more shall the sound of weeping be heard in it,
or the cry of distress. (Isaiah 65:17-19)

New heavens and new earth = new Jerusalem

Heavens and earth = Jerusalem

How much clearer could it be what is referred to?

Jots and tittles gone.

New covenant of grace ongoing.

 

[bekkilyn]

Tradition has nothing to do with the obvious reasoning that if you do no labor at all, you will starve to death. It says to work for 6 days--no work on the Sabbath and the Sabbath was created at Creation, made for man not for the Jew only---that later it was a special sign for the Jew also is not to mean that the original function of it is for all and all included all the great multitude that came with the Jews that were not Jews. The covenant at Sinai was for all who would join the people of God.
So there was no evening or morning on the Sabbath---but there were every other day before that? The sun and moon were still there---the earth still rotates. That didn't just stop. There will be no need of the sun in the new earth---doesn't say there will not be one. Jesus is the light. Jesus did not stay with Adam and Eve all the time--physically--
Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
He came to them towards sundown. There was still a morning and evening---God set that cycle in motion with the previous 6 days. His work ended---not what He set in motion.

You just keep repeating your tradition and it's not scriptural. There is nowhere in scripture that says God created a ritual weekly sabbath for anyone other than the Israelites at Sinai and their descendants. Scripture specifically says the covenant was NOT made for their ancestors. That means it wasn't made with Abraham. It wasn't made with Noah. It wasn't made with Adam and Eve, or anyone that came before Moses. We already know that Jesus fulfilled the law, all of it, when he came to earth and there is no commandment anywhere in the new testament for anyone to observe a ritual weekly sabbath. Jesus himself gives us rest now, not a weekly ritual that was only a shadow of the true sabbath.

You're assuming that the sun going down or up is God's evening and morning. However, God didn't create the sun until the fourth day, but still had an evening and morning in the days previous to the sun's creation. That suggests God's evening and morning isn't dependent on what the sun does. The garden was in a perpetual and ongoing state of rest in Jesus Christ. Doesn't mean that everyone's going to just be sitting around in God's Kingdom, but that whatever we will be doing there will not be burdensome.

 

[mmksparbud]

Where does no respect for Cain's offering get interpreted as God not liking his offering specifically because it wasn't an animal sacrifice. Maybe it had oregano on it instead of parsley and nothing whatsoever to do with it not being made of animals. We simply don't know and while it is fine to suggest that *maybe* it's because God only wanted animals, to state it as absolute fact is reading into that passage what isn't there.

LOL! S ----T--- R--- E ---T--- C--- H. That is silly--but if you insist----have it your way. It is perfectly clear enough to me.

He told the Israelites how to observe a weekly sabbath ritual intended as a sign of their covenant at Sinai. It was for no one else. That's stated very clearly in the Jewish scriptures that it was made for them and their descendants alone and was intended as temporary until Christ came and fulfilled ALL of the law.

It was not to the Israelite4s ALONE---

nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 12:38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.
Lev 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
xo 12:38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.
Exo 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
Exo 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
Exo 12:50 Thus did all the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they.

If they converted they were one with the Israelites.
And there still were no Israelites or Jews at creation when Jesus sanctified the 7th day.

 

[mmksparbud]

You just keep repeating your tradition and it's not scriptural. There is nowhere in scripture that says God created a ritual weekly sabbath for anyone other than the Israelites at Sinai and their descendants. Scripture specifically says the covenant was NOT made for their ancestors. That means it wasn't made with Abraham. It wasn't made with Noah. It wasn't made with Adam and Eve, or anyone that came before Moses. We already know that Jesus fulfilled the law, all of it, when he came to earth and there is no commandment anywhere in the new testament for anyone to observe a ritual weekly sabbath. Jesus himself gives us rest now, not a weekly ritual that was only a shadow of the true sabbath.

You're assuming that the sun going down or up is God's evening and morning. However, God didn't create the sun until the fourth day, but still had an evening and morning in the days previous to the sun's creation. That suggests God's evening and morning isn't dependent on what the sun does. The garden was in a perpetual and ongoing state of rest in Jesus Christ. Doesn't mean that everyone's going to just be sitting around in God's Kingdom, but that whatever we will be doing there will not be burdensome.

The 24 hour day is not dependent on sunlight--it is by the rotation of the earth. It says evening and morning--doesn't say sunlight to moonlight. God set up a time schedule there that is still ongoing.

 

[bekkilyn]

LOL! S ----T--- R--- E ---T--- C--- H. That is silly--but if you insist----have it your way. It is perfectly clear enough to me.



It was not to the Israelite4s ALONE---

nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 12:38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.
Lev 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
xo 12:38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.
Exo 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
Exo 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
Exo 12:50 Thus did all the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they.

If they converted they were one with the Israelites.
And there still were no Israelites or Jews at creation when Jesus sanctified the 7th day.

So after the nation of Israel got conquered by all of these other empires, they were no longer a nation. They were dispersed. The scripture you are quoting applies to the resident aliens and sojourners that lived and worked with them under their own prophets, judges, kings, etc. Once the Jews were dispersed and Israel was no longer an independent nation, these laws were no longer in effect because Rome or some other empire was in charge. After the dispersion, the only people this would apply to would be people who converted to Judaism which required following all the Jewish customs. It is drastically taking this scripture out of context to apply it to just any random non-Israelite/Jewish person anywhere.

The 24 hour day is not dependent on sunlight--it is by the rotation of the earth. It says evening and morning--doesn't say sunlight to moonlight. God set up a time schedule there that is still ongoing.

Where does it say anywhere in any of the creation accounts about a rotation of the earth? Or God setting up a time schedule? Did he use a spreadsheet too? After all, if we're going to just keeping reading into scripture all of these things that we want God to be doing, we may as well let him have a computer.

 

[mmksparbud]

So after the nation of Israel got conquered by all of these other empires, they were no longer a nation. They were dispersed. The scripture you are quoting applies to the resident aliens and sojourners that lived and worked with them under their own prophets, judges, kings, etc. Once the Jews were dispersed and Israel was no longer an independent nation, these laws were no longer in effect because Rome or some other empire was in charge. After the dispersion, the only people this would apply to would be people who converted to Judaism which required following all the Jewish customs. It is drastically taking this scripture out of context to apply it to just any random non-Israelite/Jewish person anywhere.

No matter who was in charge--an Israelite is an Israelite! Even if they were in another country, anyone that joins them is then one of them. That is reality. Even Rome allowed the observance of their rituals. And no matter they were in charge and persecuted Christians--Christians were Christians no matter what power is over them and what country they are in.

Where does it say anywhere in any of the creation accounts about a rotation of the earth? Or God setting up a time schedule? Did he use a spreadsheet too? After all, if we're going to just keeping reading into scripture all of these things that we want God to be doing, we may as well let him have a computer.

Evening and morning is a time schedule! Didn't say sundown to sundown. Yom is the word and denotes time.

 

[klutedavid]

When you become a Christian you don't become a Jew at the same time. That is a ridiculous thing to say. That is what Paul said to Peter in Antioch. Peter, if you are a Jew that does not live like a Jew. Why are you telling Gentiles to behave like Jews.

 

[mmksparbud]

When you become a Christian you don't become a Jew at the same time. That is a ridiculous thing to say. That is what Paul said to Peter in Antioch. Peter, if you are a Jew that does not live like a Jew. Why are you telling Gentiles to behave like Jews.

Nobody said that. The stst3ement is that Sinai applied only to the Israaelit4s--Nothing was said bout Christians being Jews----we are---however----spiritual Jews now.
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Only because you don't want to see it. How much more obvious do you need it? It plainly says

"And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect"

Cain didn't feel like offering what God said to--He offered what he felt like. And yes---that is exactly what it was---a heart problem. He went by his own inclinations, and didn't know God. It was what Adan and Eve did---they went by what they felt like doing, not by what God had said to do.




That's because you still do not understand what the Sabbath is about. It is not a day about ourselves.
Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
Isa 58:14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD;

It is all about God--honoring Him. It is not a day for partying, to feel our own pleasures---the day of Pentecost was about the disciples, honoring them with the Holy Spirit. These other meetings were about what they wanted---and needed to do, the Sabbath is strictly about God. As such it will never be over. So they met on other days for that--and why wouldn't they eat on those occasions? Nobody said the Sabbath consisted of not eating!

Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

You think that Jesus was not led by the Holy Spirit before His resurrection? You think He did not know that He was the sacrifice and therefore no other sacrificial days would be needed later and if that had included the sabbath why in the world would He say:

Mat_5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Luk_16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Why after His resurrection did He not say one word about not keeping the Sabbath anymore? If Jesus had said anything about any other day or it not being needed anymore -- this conversation would not be taking place. He said no such thing. Heaven and earth have not passed away yet and will not until He makes it all new.

I agree Abel's burnt offering was a sin offering. But I see you've misinterpreted Hebrews 4 to say that entering God's rest is the Sabbath. (Read it again) It was neither the 7th day nor the promised land which they all entered into. Entering God's rest is loving, trusting and believing in God,the one thing the stiff-necked Jews did not do. It is faith. It is grace. The works there are not us stopping physical work, but spiritual rest. Entering into God's rest is salvation - entering into eternity.