SDA

[1stcenturylady]

Gah, yes, I meant to type "seventh" day, not "second" day!!

Yes, I agree that the Israelites definitely didn't do what they were supposed to in carrying out that mission. I think that's a big reason why God gave the Israelites all of those written codes and made that Sinai covenant with them. They may not ever have needed it had they carried out the mission that God had intended for them in the first place. Of course, they messed that up too and lost their lands to the various empires that followed each other because God had told them he would keep the covenant with them and that they would live long in the lands he gave them *IF* they kept it, and we all know that they broke the covenant numerous times.


Not that I want to derail the thread, but this sounded interesting.

I'm guessing some believe that once we become Christians, we are considered sinless and perfect (without really understanding what that means in context) and are thus free to carry out murdering sprees, bank robberies, and other such things at will.

I just wrote this on one of the other sites I belong to Christianityboard.com (It's free)

We must look at sin the way God sees sin, not the terminology of denominations, but of Scripture. To Him, it is not "sin is sin" as if all sin is the same. That is denominational terminology, especially in liberal denominations that preach against sinless perfection. What you called "intentional sin" are sins unto death. To those denominations that say "sin is sin" ALL sin to them is intentional. Wrong.

Intentional sin or you will hear me say "willful sin" according to Hebrews 10:26 is what John is talking about in 1 John 3:9. Those old cravings are gone in a true Christian, as they are in gone in you. But there are sins NOT unto death that have to do with maturity of the fruit of the Spirit. Thoughts and attitudes. 1 John 1:7 shows a person walking in the light (or Spirit), but at the end of the verse you see that even though they are walking in the light they are still committing some sins that are automatically cleansed by the blood of Jesus. What kind of sins don't require repentance? Trespasses.

Trespasses are sins but they are unwittingly or unintentionally committed. Huge difference in the eyes of God. Only these sins are in the Lord's Prayer - not intentional sins. And these sins are automatically cleansed as we forgive others their slights against us.

Sinless perfection
All sins are cleansed and taken away at conversion including the sin nature - sinless.
All trespasses are automatically cleansed even though we unwittingly commit them - sinless.

In 1 John 2:1 you will see that John is saying it is POSSIBLE to be sinless, unlike those who contradict him and reason it is impossible. Our Advocate cleanses our trespasses. You will note that no repentance is mentioned as if they were willful sins that require repentance. Why? Because it is impossible for a true Christian to commit sins unto death. 1 John 5 even says to not even bother praying for someone sinning unto death. And remember those are willful sins. Hebrew 10 even says what more sacrifice is there? In the Old Testament they killed them because there was no sacrifice for willful sin. The Old Testaments, our schoolmaster lets you can plainly see and learn God's attitude on sin, especially in Numbers 15:22-36.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I'm guessing some believe that once we become Christians, we are considered sinless and perfect (without really understanding what that means in context) and are thus free to carry out murdering sprees, bank robberies, and other such things at will.

No, that description would be the opposite of sinless perfection. That would be those who believe the blood of Jesus covers our sins while we keep committing them. Wrong. That is turning the grace of God into licentiousness. Jude 1:4

 

[bekkilyn]

I just wrote this on one of the other sites I belong to Christianityboard.com (It's free)

We must look at sin the way God sees sin, not the terminology of denominations, but of Scripture. To Him, it is not "sin is sin" as if all sin is the same. That is denominational terminology, especially in liberal denominations that preach against sinless perfection. What you called "intentional sin" are sins unto death. To those denominations that say "sin is sin" ALL sin to them is intentional. Wrong.

Intentional sin or you will hear me say "willful sin" according to Hebrews 10:26 is what John is talking about in 1 John 3:9. Those old cravings are gone in a true Christian, as they are in gone in you. But there are sins NOT unto death that have to do with maturity of the fruit of the Spirit. Thoughts and attitudes. 1 John 1:7 shows a person walking in the light (or Spirit), but at the end of the verse you see that even though they are walking in the light they are still committing some sins that are automatically cleansed by the blood of Jesus. What kind of sins don't require repentance? Trespasses.

Trespasses are sins but they are unwittingly or unintentionally committed. Huge difference in the eyes of God. Only these sins are in the Lord's Prayer - not intentional sins. And these sins are automatically cleansed as we forgive others their slights against us.

Sinless perfection
All sins are cleansed and taken away at conversion including the sin nature - sinless.
All trespasses are automatically cleansed even though we unwittingly commit them - sinless.

In 1 John 2:1 you will see that John is saying it is POSSIBLE to be sinless, unlike those who contradict him and reason it is impossible. Our Advocate cleanses our trespasses. You will note that no repentance is mentioned as if they were willful sins that require repentance. Why? Because it is impossible for a true Christian to commit sins unto death. 1 John 5 even says to not even bother praying for someone sinning unto death. And remember those are willful sins. Hebrew 10 even says what more sacrifice is there? In the Old Testament they killed them because there was no sacrifice for willful sin. The Old Testaments, our schoolmaster lets you can plainly see and learn God's attitude on sin, especially in Numbers 15:22-36.

Thanks! I've always understood that verse to mean that we would be considered *as* sinless through Christ, and not through our own efforts. For perfection, I tend to have a more Wesleyan view of perfection as meaning completeness, that we have reached a complete level of Christian maturity. But the sin nature is still there and will not be removed while we are still in *this* flesh.

Of course, someone who is willfully sinning on a regular basis is very likely stalled in the process of spiritual maturity, if they even started it in the first place.

 

[bekkilyn]

No, that description would be the opposite of sinless perfection. That would be those who believe the blood of Jesus covers our sins while we keep committing them. Wrong. That is turning the grace of God into licentiousness. Jude 1:4

I agree it's definitely wrong, but I've heard people argue it. Usually amidst the "once saved, always saved" crowd.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I agree it's definitely wrong, but I've heard people argue it. Usually amidst the "once saved, always saved" crowd.

Exactly - the most dangerous doctrine in Christianity. In the letters to the seven churches, Jesus called that church age (Reformation) the dead church, called Sardis.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Thanks! I've always understood that verse to mean that we would be considered *as* sinless through Christ, and not through our own efforts. For perfection, I tend to have a more Wesleyan view of perfection as meaning completeness, that we have reached a complete level of Christian maturity. But the sin nature is still there and will not be removed while we are still in *this* flesh.

Of course, someone who is willfully sinning on a regular basis is very likely stalled in the process of spiritual maturity, if they even started it in the first place.

It is not our own efforts without help, but more like our own cooperation with the Holy Spirit working through us. Then, I can do all things through Christ Who strengthens me.

I disagree with your statement on the sin nature. 1 John 3:5 But Jesus was manifest to take away our sin and in Him there is no sin. The only way to see that manifested in us is without the machine that keeps spewing out sin 24/7 - the sin nature. Romans 6:2 says we are dead to sin. That is talking of the sin nature. Romans 8:9 says we are NOT in the flesh (sin nature) but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells within us. And without the Spirit of Christ in us, we do not belong to Him.

There are two meanings for the word flesh, and Paul didn't want us to confuse the two, so he spoke on both. One is the sin nature, the other is our body.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

"Because of sin" is Adam's sin, not sins we keep committing - we don't.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Thanks! I've always understood that verse to mean that we would be considered *as* sinless through Christ, and not through our own efforts. For perfection, I tend to have a more Wesleyan view of perfection as meaning completeness, that we have reached a complete level of Christian maturity. But the sin nature is still there and will not be removed while we are still in *this* flesh.

Of course, someone who is willfully sinning on a regular basis is very likely stalled in the process of spiritual maturity, if they even started it in the first place.

Is Wesleyan - Methodist? Is suppose it is. I'm going to a Methodist church right now, but they don't preach what you just said. In fact, the first sermon I heard there was on 1 John 3:9!

 

[bekkilyn]

Is Wesleyan - Methodist? Is suppose it is. I'm going to a Methodist church right now, but they don't preach what you just said. In fact, the first sermon I heard there was on 1 John 3:9!

There are other Wesleyan denominations besides Methodist, but Methodists would of course be included.

I may not have entirely clearly explained (super busy day), here is a couple links right to the source, John Wesley himself:

The Wesley Center Online: Sermon 13 - On Sin In Believers

In this sermon, he starts out by asking, "Is there then sin in him that is in Christ Does sin remain in one that believes in him Is there any sin in them that are born of God, or are they wholly delivered from it?"

Then ultimately concludes, "That although we are renewed, cleansed, purified, sanctified, the moment we truly believe in Christ, yet we are not then renewed, cleansed, purified altogether; but the flesh, the evil nature, still remains (though subdued) and wars against the Spirit. So much the more let us use all diligence in "fighting the good fight of faith." So much the more earnestly let us "watch and pray" against the enemy within. The more carefully let us take to ourselves, and "put on, the whole armor of God;" that, although "we wrestle" both "with flesh, and blood, and with the principalities, and with powers, and wicked spirits in high places," we may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.""

He wrote a second sermon on Christian perfection:

Sermon 40 - Christian Perfection - General Board of Global Ministries

He starts with, "There is scarce any expression in Holy Writ which has given more offence than this. The word perfect is what many cannot bear. The very sound of it is an abomination to them. And whosoever preaches perfection (as the phrase is,) that is, asserts that it is attainable in this life, runs great hazard of being accounted by them worse than a heathen man or a publican."

In the middle of his argument, he does mention 1 John 3:9, "

5. But most express are the well-known words of St. John, in the third chapter of his First Epistle, verse 8, &c.: "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: And he cannot sin because he is born of God." [1 John 3:8, 9] And those in the fifth: (1 John 5:18) "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

6. Indeed it is said this means only, He sinneth not wilfully; or he doth not commit sin habitually; or, not as other men do; or, not as he did before. But by whom is this said? By St.John? No. There is no such word in the text; nor in the whole chapter; nor in all his Epistle; nor in any part of his writings whatsoever. Why then, the best way to answer a bold assertion is simply to deny it. And if any man can prove it from the Word of God, let him bring forth his strong reasons."
​

And part of his conclusion:

"Exactly agreeable to this are his words in the first chapter of this Epistle, (1 John 1:5, &c.) "God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we walk in the light, -- we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." And again, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." [1 John 1:9] Now it is evident, the Apostle here also speaks of a deliverance wrought in this world. For he saith not, the blood of Christ will cleanse at the hour of death, or in the day of judgment, but, it "cleanseth," at the time present, "us," living Christians, "from all sin." And it is equally evident, that if any sin remain, we are not cleansed from all sin: If any unrighteousness remain in the soul, it is not cleansed from all unrighteousness. Neither let any sinner against his own soul say, that this relates to justification only, or the cleansing us from the guilt of sin. First, because this is confounding together what the Apostle clearly distinguishes, who mentions first, to forgive us our sins, and then to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. "Secondly, because this is asserting justification by works, in the strongest sense possible; it is making all inward as well as outward holiness necessarily previous to justification. For if the cleansing here spoken of is no other than the cleansing us from the guilt of sin, then we are not cleansed from guilt; that is, are not justified, unless on condition of "walking in the light, as he is in the light." [1 John 1:7] It remains, then, that Christians are saved in this world from all sin, from all unrighteousness; that they are now in such a sense perfect, as not to commit sin, and to be freed from evil thoughts and evil tempers."


Not sure if this is what was preached in the sermon at your church, but I've had a long day and my mind is a bit muddled from it, so I figured I'd link a couple things right from the source, so to speak. ​

 

[mmksparbud]

Are you really not understanding this or are you just doing a "but you said...." to try to "get" me on something?

Let me try to explain once again..

The covenant God made with the Israelites at Sinai was for them and their descendants until Christ came to fulfil the law of that covenant. This was true regardless of whether they ruled over their own nation(s) or not because they were either at the mountain themselves, or they were descended from an Israelite who was there. At some point, they became known as Jews rather than Israelites.

Now the non-Israelites who lived with them when the Israelites/Jews governed their own land(s) were not *personally* under this covenant. If they were to move away from the land(s) that the Israelites governed, then they would be free to practice whatever customs/traditions the wished. However, while they lived in the land(s) of Israel, they were required to obey the "household rules" so to speak. They were circumcised, followed the diet restrictions, sabbath rituals, etc.

But an Israelite who moved away from the land(s) Israel ruled would still be under the covenant because he or she is an actual Israelite or Jewish descendant.

However, unless you are claiming that ALL non-Israelites in the world lived in the nation of Israel (or Judah) under Israelite judges, kings, etc., then the majority of non-Israelites/non-Jews would even be aware of any of these things any more than most of us are aware of all the details of what the Amish do, or Buddhist monks, or any other group of people we may have heard of but never intimately lived with or followed their traditions.



And humans have used these celestial things that God has made and created a multitude of different types of calendars, sundials, wristwatches, etc. Doesn't mean that ANY of these things match up with God's time. He isn't bound by anything he has created. He is God.



Actually, I love math and would love to find all this math that you claim exists in the accounts of creation in Genesis, but it is simply not there. It is more SDA tradition that makes assumption that isn't there. The books in the bible are not math books and were never intended to be used as math books, or even science books.

Is it possible for God to just made a mistake and left out the evening and morning for the seventh (edit to correct from second to seventh) day, or is it very conspicuously NOT there for a reason? It's very obviously and noticeably different from the previous six days, but somehow God went, "Oops, I meant to put that in there. Oh well."

Those that joined them were personally under the covenant--I gave you those verses--are you simply ignoring them? They converted to Judaism and were to be treated as one of their own--what is the big deal--no different than when anyone converts. Not trying to get you on anything--it is plainly written.

Israelites were called Jews after the name Judah for the son of Jacob--first mention of the name is in the story of Esther.


Again----Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
God set this planet up under certain times-He dictated those times. When He deals with jus He uses our timed that He set up. Hus biblical prophecies are under those times, Jesus coming was at a set time, Jesus Himself did things at the right time "My time is not yet come." Gods world beyond ours is a while other matter. He is not bound by anything, but what He says is, and when He says these thing are for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: that is exactly what He means and He lets us know when certain things will come about within our timing. When He told Abraham this descendant would be in another land for over 400 years, that is what happened, when He set the time of the Jews captivity under Babylon for 70 years before His people would be allowed to rebuild--that is exactly what happened The magi knew that Jesus was born by reading the scriptures---what God said will happen at a certain time will happen. Even the elements obey His word. "Peace, be still."

 

[mmksparbud]

But there is much more to Christianity than what you and I learned from the denomination. I didn't even know that Jesus was God until many years after I left SDA

You must not have been paying attention!! How that is possible is beyond me. I knew that in grade school. Along with the fact that if Jesus is in you, you can not sin. I just didn't want him in me for many years.

As I said--I read the bible--I am SDA because they teach what I believe it says. If they stop doing that, then I would leave.

 

[1stcenturylady]

You must not have been paying attention!! How that is possible is beyond me. I knew that in grade school. Along with the fact that if Jesus is in you, you can not sin. I just didn't want him in me for many years.

As I said--I read the bible--I am SDA because they teach what I believe it says. If they stop doing that, then I would leave.

Have you ever heard of the fruit of the Spirit? No need to be nasty.

 

[mmksparbud]

Have you ever heard of the fruit of the Spirit? No need to be nasty.

Yes--and why do you think I was nasty? I don't understand how anyone can say this when they have been in any church--saying you weren't paying attention is nasty?? I wasn't offended or defensive when I wrote my post. I've been on this website for several years and I am quite used to being picked on for being SDA--I remember as a kid when I heard that we were considered a cult. I had to look it up. Decided I wasn't in one and that was that. It didn't bother me. Now they don't say that anymore--funny, we didn't change!
I've been debating Mormons for several years now--they get very, very touchy as everyone picks on them for their believes--they are forever reporting people to the mods---seems like a lot of people on this website are very thin skinned. I've been reported at least 4 times!! I argued all but 2--those 2 I was a little too sarcastic. I have reported people 3 times I believe---2 were for porn pictures--one was for very sneering, ridiculing comments and all I asked was that they ask him to lighten up. Mods found him more inappropriate than I. I subscribe to this----and have posted it on the Mormon threads very often---
Psa 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

I will, however, correct anything that I perceive as being untrue, or will defend whatever my position is--that is what we do on here---everybody is here to state their opinions, regardless of what others think. I do have moments of total frustration and unbelieve of what is said. Like the guy who feels it is biblical to marry an 8 year old child and have sex with them! Seriously?? I keep thinking nothing shocks me anymore, only to be proven wrong.

Ironically--I often argue with them about their view of keeping God's law---for their doctrine states that they must keep the law in order to be saved. I keep saying we do it because we are saved not to be saved--they also have to have many good works to get to the highest heaven. Funny to come on here and get accused of what I accuse them of!---Oh well!
Sorry if I worded it wrong, I do have a very sarcastic streak and a rather warped sense of humor--several times I've been dinged for saying something that someone found not be as funny as I did!
I still find your statement----- strange!

 

[mmksparbud]

Hey folks--My computer is still working!! I've had to ice it once and only for a short time! The think had gotten worse every day and was starting to smell almost burning--or melting plastic! Sometimes I am brought to tears at how often, esp. during these past 2 years, God as answered every single one of my prayers. My neighbor does things for me like take my garbage to the curb every Tues. When I was accepted for this forgivable loan, I told him I had bad news for him---I was staying in my home and he was stuck with me--He said he liked watching over me, he sees the hand of God with my answered prayers---I was very touched by that. Him and his family are mostly Catholic. He wasn't too interested in God till now. Amazing--my answered prayers are not just about me!

Which is what came to my mind one day when I was questioning why God had brought me back from the grave--I had this thought, "it's not about you!"
I finally realized it had been about saving my husband. And then I found out I had been needed by a very special friend. She was having a horrible time that none knew about and I felt she had that problem and asked her and she busted out crying--"How did you know?" She felt I had been brought back for her---all of the above!
Sorry for rambling! I just had to have a cup of hot chocolate---just enough caffeine I guess to trigger me! Never could tolerate the stuff!

 

[Karola]

You must not have been paying attention!! How that is possible is beyond me. .

It is as possible in the sda church as it is outside of it. I went to a Pentecostal church for years, I have been to Trinitarian churches all my life, but only when I came on the internet did I discover all the Trinitarian churches actually believed Jesus was God Himself. I can honestly say I never previously knew that. And in the sda services I have been to, it was never mentioned.

 

[mmksparbud]

Actually, I love math and would love to find all this math that you claim exists in the accounts of creation in Genesis, but it is simply not there. It is more SDA tradition that makes assumption that isn't there. The books in the bible are not math books and were never intended to be used as math books, or even science books.

Biblical math has nothing to do with SDA--all you have to do is look up biblical math, biblical numerology. In fact I am not sure if there are any books by SDA dealing with this. It gives me a headache, you might find it far easier to understand. There are countless things in the bible dealing with numbers, sequences, patterns and so forth. Just careful not to get too carried away. I just am not wired for numbers.

 

[bekkilyn]

Those that joined them were personally under the covenant--I gave you those verses--are you simply ignoring them? They converted to Judaism and were to be treated as one of their own--what is the big deal--no different than when anyone converts. Not trying to get you on anything--it is plainly written.

Israelites were called Jews after the name Judah for the son of Jacob--first mention of the name is in the story of Esther.

I wasn't talking about those who lived among the Israelites/Jews in their nation who *converted* to Judaism. Those who convert to Judaism are Jews. I was speaking of those who did *not* convert, but who lived among them. While living in the Israelite/Jewish nation, the *non*-Jewish (alien residents) were expected to live under the "household rules" while they lived there. If they moved away, they were free to no longer observe Judaic customs because they were not Israelites and not bound by their covenants.

Again----Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
God set this planet up under certain times-He dictated those times. When He deals with jus He uses our timed that He set up. Hus biblical prophecies are under those times, Jesus coming was at a set time, Jesus Himself did things at the right time "My time is not yet come." Gods world beyond ours is a while other matter. He is not bound by anything, but what He says is, and when He says these thing are for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: that is exactly what He means and He lets us know when certain things will come about within our timing. When He told Abraham this descendant would be in another land for over 400 years, that is what happened, when He set the time of the Jews captivity under Babylon for 70 years before His people would be allowed to rebuild--that is exactly what happened The magi knew that Jesus was born by reading the scriptures---what God said will happen at a certain time will happen. Even the elements obey His word. "Peace, be still."

And people have used the stars and moon and sun and other celestial and earthly things to craft their own calendars (many types) and special days and all sorts of things. That doesn't mean that God sat there and micromanaged it all for them.

Many of those times that are in scripture are not historically literal times, but signify something meaningful. For example, historically, the Jews were in captivity in Babylon for only around 50 years, not the 70 that you are taught. But the 70 is significant because it represents completeness. They were in captivity for the amount of time that God deemed them to be captive, and when that time was done, their captivity was complete.

We are not robots to God. He gives us guidance yes, but he also gives us choice and allows the consequences of our choices.

There are also many different views of biblical prophecy and they ALL use scripture to confirm what they believe to be correct. SDA is no more or less valid than theirs, and I would suspect that none of the views are 100% right. The only thing we can be fully certain about is that Christ *will* come again. Everything about how it all happens is conjecture.

 

[mmksparbud]

I wasn't talking about those who lived among the Israelites/Jews in their nation who *converted* to Judaism. Those who convert to Judaism are Jews. I was speaking of those who did *not* convert, but who lived among them. While living in the Israelite/Jewish nation, the *non*-Jewish (alien residents) were expected to live under the "household rules" while they lived there. If they moved away, they were free to no longer observe Judaic customs because they were not Israelites and not bound by their covenants.

I thought you were--OK--agreed.

 

[mmksparbud]

And people have used the stars and moon and sun and other celestial and earthly things to craft their own calendars (many types) and special days and all sorts of things. That doesn't mean that God sat there and micromanaged it all for them.

Many of those times that are in scripture are not historically literal times, but signify something meaningful. For example, historically, the Jews were in captivity in Babylon for only around 50 years, not the 70 that you are taught. But the 70 is significant because it represents completeness. They were in captivity for the amount of time that God deemed them to be captive, and when that time was done, their captivity was complete.

We are not robots to God. He gives us guidance yes, but he also gives us choice and allows the consequences of our choices.

There are also many different views of biblical prophecy and they ALL use scripture to confirm what they believe to be correct. SDA is no more or less valid than theirs, and I would suspect that none of the views are 100% right. The only thing we can be fully certain about is that Christ *will* come again. Everything about how it all happens is conjecture.

Well---People use what God gave them to use! Why is it that you think that God doesn't mean what He says? He said that was their purpose-- "let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:"
What part if this is it that you find objectionable and why? Have you ever even looked at all the numbers in the bible? As I said--has nothing at all to do with SDA--it is simply seeing the patterns that are there. If someone who can't stand math can see it, how come someone who loves it won't even think about it? Some get into numerology and what each of the numbers from 1 to 40 mean--I don't buy it all--however, It is considered by just about every church that the number 7 stands for perfection, completion----stuff like that--just interesting. Like how it is that the #12 comes up---12 children of Jacob --12 tribes--12 disciples--12 foundations of the New Jerusalem--God is quite intentional. I admire those that have a mathematical brain as I feel they are closer to how the mind of God works--His precision in nature is astounding. I may not comprehend it, but no reason I can't admire it. The problem with some things is that because an SDA says something, it can't possible be true, or if a Catholic says anything, it can't be true--I don't happen to think everything the Catholics think or do is wrong! And to think that God doesn't use the time schedule He has set for this world seems to be mentally constipated!

 

[TheNorwegian]

Austria, Germany, Switzerland, and Norway, keeping most stores closed on Sundays. You can go online and find out which countries have those laws and they have them because of pressure from the Catholic church

The Catholic Church has close to zero influence i Norway, and not much in Switzerland

 

[mmksparbud]

The Catholic Church has close to zero influence i Norway, and not much in Switzerland

Never the less-it is through their efforts that the Sunday laws there were put into affect by the government. It not a secret. Everyone is quite open about it. They campaigned for it under the banner of it's for the sake of the workers--to make sure everyone has a day off.