SDA

[mmksparbud]

I agree Abel's burnt offering was a sin offering. But I see you've misinterpreted Hebrews 4 to say that entering God's rest is the Sabbath. (Read it again) It was neither the 7th day nor the promised land which they all entered into. Entering God's rest is loving, trusting and believing in God,the one thing the stiff-necked Jews did not do. It is faith. It is grace. The works there are not us stopping physical work, but spiritual rest. Entering into God's rest is salvation - entering into eternity.

Yes, However, it does say---

Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Yes, However, it does say---

Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

I know what it says, but that was an example. Read to the end where Jesus is our High Priest and we can now come boldly to the Throne of Grace. The chapter is all about resting and believing in Jesus, not promoting a day of the week. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, not subservient to it. Don't make the Sabbath Day an idol to be worshiped. When I was SDA, the Sabbath was all they cared about.

(continued)

 

[1stcenturylady]

Yes, However, it does say---

Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

(continued)

Don't misunderstand me. For your conscience sake, if you want to keep the Sabbath as law, go ahead. It is just that is not what Hebrews 4 is even talking about. All the OT laws were physical to teach us spiritual truths. Our New Covenant laws are of the heart, not of the flesh - 1 John 3:23 to believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and to love one another. We are to walk in the Spirit and we will not fulfill any of the lusts of the flesh.

 

[Karola]

(continued)

Don't misunderstand me. For your conscience sake, if you want to keep the Sabbath as law, go ahead. It is just that is not what Hebrews 4 is even talking about. All the OT laws were physical to teach us spiritual truths. Our New Covenant laws are of the heart, not of the flesh - 1 John 3:23 to believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and to love one another. We are to walk in the Spirit and we will not fulfill any of the lusts of the flesh.

Yes, the more you follow after the Holy Spirit, the more the fruits of the Spirit appear in your life, and against that fruit there is no law, for that fruit is the embodiment of how God wants you to live:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Gal5:22&23

 

[mmksparbud]

I know what it says, but that was an example. Read to the end where Jesus is our High Priest and we can now come boldly to the Throne of Grace. The chapter is all about resting and believing in Jesus, not promoting a day of the week. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, not subservient to it. Don't make the Sabbath Day an idol to be worshiped. When I was SDA, the Sabbath was all they cared about.
(continued)

I know what it says, but …….God forbid anything should be taken at face value around here---Just got off a thread about Genesis is just allegory---it's a very popular theory. The snake is Satan and Eve had sex with it for eating is another meaning for sex, so that means that Adam had sex with it too and Cain is the son of Satan---OK---Thanks for sharing. I'll pass. I think this horse has been beat enough--time to move on.

 

[Karola]

I know what it says, but …….God forbid anything should be taken at face value around here---Just got off a thread about Genesis is just allegory---it's a very popular theory. The snake is Satan and Eve had sex with it for eating is another meaning for sex, so that means that Adam had sex with it too and Cain is the son of Satan---.

What do you expect on the internet? I have just been on a thread where someone said the following makes sense:
''And when the NLT states no has ever gone into Heaven, it obviously did not mean they did not enter heaven, for by Elijah going up to Heaven he entered where he did not go into''

 

[mmksparbud]

What do you expect on the internet? I have just been on a thread where someone said the following makes sense:
''And when the NLT states no has ever gone into Heaven, it obviously did not mean they did not enter heaven, for by Elijah going up to Heaven he entered where he did not go into''

I think I was on that one!---Enoch and Elijah went into uncreated space----I said if it is uncreated then it doesn't exist--yes it does--God is there spiritually---or some such thing--but they are not in heaven. There was someone who said Cain was sent off the face of the earth so that means he went into outer space and that is where he found his wife! That's right up there with Joseph Smiths' the Garden of Eden was in Missouri---and oh yah--God never said we couldn't have sex with 8 year old girls if we marry them---I can't handle any more---too old for this stuff.

 

[Karola]

I think I was on that one!---Enoch and Elijah went into uncreated space----I said if it is uncreated then it doesn't exist--yes it does--God is there spiritually---or some such thing--but they are not in heaven. There was someone who said Cain was sent off the face of the earth so that means he went into outer space and that is where he found his wife! That's right up there with Joseph Smiths' the Garden of Eden was in Missouri---and oh yah--God never said we couldn't have sex with 8 year old girls if we marry them---I can't handle any more---too old for this stuff.

I guess its just my immaturity, sometimes it makes me laugh, and sometimes despair. I imagine for some, the internet was the best thing ever invented, not sure how far they would get preaching their ideas outside of cyberspace.

 

[mmksparbud]

I guess its just my immaturity, sometimes it makes me laugh, and sometimes despair. I imagine for some, the internet was the best thing ever invented, not sure how far they would get preaching their ideas outside of cyberspace.

I fluctuate between the 2 frequently!

 

[bekkilyn]

No matter who was in charge--an Israelite is an Israelite! Even if they were in another country, anyone that joins them is then one of them. That is reality. Even Rome allowed the observance of their rituals. And no matter they were in charge and persecuted Christians--Christians were Christians no matter what power is over them and what country they are in.

Evening and morning is a time schedule! Didn't say sundown to sundown. Yom is the word and denotes time.

After the Jews were scattered, anyone joining them didn't become a member of their *nation* because they no longer had a nation. They became a converted *Jew*. Not a Christian. Paul and the council of Jerusalem decided that Christians did not need to convert to Judaism to become Christians or follow Jewish laws and traditions. It's very clear in the book of Acts that that was the case.

Evening and morning is evening and morning to designate a time of completion for that particular act of creation, and the seventh day didn't have an evening and morning. I realize how tempting it is to force a human time schedule onto God, but God has his own time and his own definition of it and he hasn't shared it with us despite what some denominations claim to have done.

 

[bekkilyn]

Nobody said that. The stst3ement is that Sinai applied only to the Israaelit4s--Nothing was said bout Christians being Jews----we are---however----spiritual Jews now.
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Even "spiritual Jews" are not required to observe the physical rituals and ceremonies and traditions of actual Jews. What Paul meant by this spiritual Jew thing is that *Abraham's* covenant (not the Sinai covenant) was now being realized for all peoples of all nations through Jesus Christ. Nothing to do with the ten commandments or the temporary covenant God made specifically for the Israelites at Sinai that Christ fulfilled.

 

[mmksparbud]

After the Jews were scattered, anyone joining them didn't become a member of their *nation* because they no longer had a nation. They became a converted *Jew*. Not a Christian. Paul and the council of Jerusalem decided that Christians did not need to convert to Judaism to become Christians or follow Jewish laws and traditions. It's very clear in the book of Acts that that was the case.

Evening and morning is evening and morning to designate a time of completion for that particular act of creation, and the seventh day didn't have an evening and morning. I realize how tempting it is to force a human time schedule onto God, but God has his own time and his own definition of it and he hasn't shared it with us despite what some denominations claim to have done.

We were talking about the Israelites at Mt Sinai as you said that the covenant was strictly with the them. I was pointing that there were non Israelites that joined up.


It is easy to set up human times for God ON THIS EARTH for that is why He:
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

His time is His time---He specifically gave us ours. There was no such thing as an unending Sabbath at the garden with no morning or evening---God set the week and everything else in motion at creation, week. Everything about the bible is precise, math, time is from beginning to end---hate that, actually---God is really, really into math, physics--He invented it--and I loath math. My brain can not follow too many numbers! I always hated getting into the prophecies, mercy--I'd get lost within the first 2 numbers.
OK--I think we have all had our say here---I am not about to change my position and neither is anyone else and I think it is time to move on. I think w covered everything.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I know what it says, but …….God forbid anything should be taken at face value around here---Just got off a thread about Genesis is just allegory---it's a very popular theory. The snake is Satan and Eve had sex with it for eating is another meaning for sex, so that means that Adam had sex with it too and Cain is the son of Satan---OK---Thanks for sharing. I'll pass. I think this horse has been beat enough--time to move on.

This is what happens when you take verses out of context and blindly run with it. 2 Timothy 4:4 I see that the chapter being about Jesus doesn't matter. The Sabbath is still the only thing that matters. Nothing has changed since I left the denomination.

 

[mmksparbud]

This is what happens when you take verses out of context and blindly run with it. 2 Timothy 4:4 I see that the chapter being about Jesus doesn't matter. The Sabbath is still the only thing that matters. Nothing has changed since I left the denomination.

Totally agree. Verses out of context has gotten out of hand.

2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Yup--Hope you stop doing that.

These people are all so sure they are led by the Holy Spirit---and the Holy Spirit tells them Joseph Smith is the real thing and his BOM is more accurate than the bible. So this Holy Spirit tells them that God was a man before He became God, and we can become god too where we will have our own planet and have children for which we have to save also, just like God and Jesus have done for us. That we existed before being born as the product of God and the heavenly mother. That if it had not been for Satan and the fall, we would never have been able to have children. That the Garden of Eden was in Missouri,

And this is what I just got in response to many saying that That is what happens when we rely on feeling instead of a plain "it is written."

So you think it is more important that 'it is written', than you do in the witness of the Holy spirit to your spirit? The written word of God says that the Holy Spirit is the truth teller and that he talks to the spirit that is in you. Far more powerful and important.

Yup---have heard that often enough here. By all means---hang on to this Holy Spirit that makes you set aside the bible for fables. I'll take an "it is written."


​

 

[1stcenturylady]

Totally agree. Verses out of context has gotten out of hand.

2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Yup--Hope you stop doing that.

These people are all so sure they are led by the Holy Spirit---and the Holy Spirit tells them Joseph Smith is the real thing and his BOM is more accurate than the bible. So this Holy Spirit tells them that God was a man before He became God, and we can become god too where we will have our own planet and have children for which we have to save also, just like God and Jesus have done for us. That we existed before being born as the product of God and the heavenly mother. That if it had not been for Satan and the fall, we would never have been able to have children. That the Garden of Eden was in Missouri,

And this is what I just got in response to many saying that That is what happens when we rely on feeling instead of a plain "it is written."



Yup---have heard that often enough here. By all means---hang on to this Holy Spirit that makes you set aside the bible for fables. I'll take an "it is written."


​

But you're not taking what is written, but going by what EGW says. Otherwise, you would see you are taking a mention of the 7th day that was meant as an example and never allowing yourself to actually enter into God's rest.

It refers to the 7th day, and then appoints a new day - TODAY. So you see, this passage is not your proof that the Sabbath is entering into God's rest. So what could God's rest be? Think about it.

 

[mmksparbud]

But you're not taking what is written, but going by what EGW says. Otherwise, you would see you are taking a mention of the 7th day that was meant as an example and never allowing yourself to actually enter into God's rest.

It refers to the 7th day, and then appoints a new day - TODAY. So you see, this passage is not your proof that the Sabbath is entering into God's rest. So what could God's rest be? Think about it.

I happen to be able to read--I read the bible. You can throw EGW out the window--it would change not one single solitary thing about our doctrines. Hate to tell you this, but they do not come from her. They come from the bible. She had revelations about things, definitely, but she did not decide the doctrines. That was decided by the church leaders together. If God told me she was a false prophet, I would toss her away and nothing about what I believe would change. They are biblically based--the state of the dead would not change, the Sabbath question would not, the no everlasting burning hell wouldn't change--Basically, not much of the health message would change either for it has been shown with non-SDA research time after time, that those who follow our way of life live longer and healthier lives. The prophecies would not change--the bible is used to explain itself and history does the rest and so nothing changes. If the church were to change their doctrines, I would leave--the church teaches what I believe, I don't believe what the church teaches.

And BTW----I haven't been in church for 10 years now---because I have many health issues and have been in a wheel chair.

 

[bekkilyn]

We were talking about the Israelites at Mt Sinai as you said that the covenant was strictly with the them. I was pointing that there were non Israelites that joined up.

Are you really not understanding this or are you just doing a "but you said...." to try to "get" me on something?

Let me try to explain once again..

The covenant God made with the Israelites at Sinai was for them and their descendants until Christ came to fulfil the law of that covenant. This was true regardless of whether they ruled over their own nation(s) or not because they were either at the mountain themselves, or they were descended from an Israelite who was there. At some point, they became known as Jews rather than Israelites.

Now the non-Israelites who lived with them when the Israelites/Jews governed their own land(s) were not *personally* under this covenant. If they were to move away from the land(s) that the Israelites governed, then they would be free to practice whatever customs/traditions the wished. However, while they lived in the land(s) of Israel, they were required to obey the "household rules" so to speak. They were circumcised, followed the diet restrictions, sabbath rituals, etc.

But an Israelite who moved away from the land(s) Israel ruled would still be under the covenant because he or she is an actual Israelite or Jewish descendant.

However, unless you are claiming that ALL non-Israelites in the world lived in the nation of Israel (or Judah) under Israelite judges, kings, etc., then the majority of non-Israelites/non-Jews would even be aware of any of these things any more than most of us are aware of all the details of what the Amish do, or Buddhist monks, or any other group of people we may have heard of but never intimately lived with or followed their traditions.

It is easy to set up human times for God ON THIS EARTH for that is why He:
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

And humans have used these celestial things that God has made and created a multitude of different types of calendars, sundials, wristwatches, etc. Doesn't mean that ANY of these things match up with God's time. He isn't bound by anything he has created. He is God.

His time is His time---He specifically gave us ours. There was no such thing as an unending Sabbath at the garden with no morning or evening---God set the week and everything else in motion at creation, week. Everything about the bible is precise, math, time is from beginning to end---hate that, actually---God is really, really into math, physics--He invented it--and I loath math. My brain can not follow too many numbers! I always hated getting into the prophecies, mercy--I'd get lost within the first 2 numbers.
OK--I think we have all had our say here---I am not about to change my position and neither is anyone else and I think it is time to move on. I think w covered everything.

Actually, I love math and would love to find all this math that you claim exists in the accounts of creation in Genesis, but it is simply not there. It is more SDA tradition that makes assumption that isn't there. The books in the bible are not math books and were never intended to be used as math books, or even science books.

Is it possible for God to just made a mistake and left out the evening and morning for the seventh (edit to correct from second to seventh) day, or is it very conspicuously NOT there for a reason? It's very obviously and noticeably different from the previous six days, but somehow God went, "Oops, I meant to put that in there. Oh well."

 

[1stcenturylady]

I happen to be able to read--I read the bible. You can throw EGW out the window--it would change not one single solitary thing about our doctrines. Hate to tell you this, but they do not come from her. They come from the bible. She had revelations about things, definitely, but she did not decide the doctrines. That was decided by the church leaders together. If God told me she was a false prophet, I would toss her away and nothing about what I believe would change. They are biblically based--the state of the dead would not change, the Sabbath question would not, the no everlasting burning hell wouldn't change--Basically, not much of the health message would change either for it has been shown with non-SDA research time after time, that those who follow our way of life live longer and healthier lives. The prophecies would not change--the bible is used to explain itself and history does the rest and so nothing changes. If the church were to change their doctrines, I would leave--the church teaches what I believe, I don't believe what the church teaches.

And BTW----I haven't been in church for 10 years now---because I have many health issues and have been in a wheel chair.

I'm sorry to hear about your bad health. I'm in a lot of pain today myself, and missed church.

I actually like and respect Ellen G. White. Many things outsiders and insiders alike have attributed to her, she didn't even say as an infallible command, but only her own opinion. Mostly to do with health, or the length of skirts. And I love Seventh-day Adventists. I even know a Spirit-filled SDA pastor. Unlike Joseph Smith who was nothing more than a con-artist, Mason, and liar, EGW and SDA are extremely noble and wise. I am eternally grateful for the hunger for the Word I received from them. I still can recite the entire Ten Commandments and the list of the books of the Bible from memory.

But there is much more to Christianity than what you and I learned from the denomination. I didn't even know that Jesus was God until many years after I left SDA. They, instead, taught me that Jesus used to be God, but gave it up to die for us, and will always remain man. I was taught that SDA had "the Truth." But one night in a debate to discuss the law, I lost to the man who opened my eyes to grace. I was shown scriptures I had never come across from my Adventist teachers, and I went to SDA schools from grade school into university. And by the way, I know they didn't use Hebrews 4 as a proof text for keeping the Sabbath seeing as it isn't. That seems to be something that has come about more recently, and only makes those who try to seem desperate, as it is clearly out of context to entering the true rest in God. You seem honest, so please don't take offense. It doesn't disprove the Sabbath either, so you shouldn't be defensive. Just open up to learning what God means in every passage in His Word. The night of the debate I lost (at around 4 in the morning) it was like a lite went on in my understanding; I was so in shock that SDA didn't have "the Truth" I understood that no denomination has it all. So like you, I go straight to the Word and pray for God to enlighten me to what He means. It has been amazing. You may feel picked on, but believe me I've been crucified on the forums over what I have found. There are truths in there nobody teaches. I've even been called a heretic on another site (I have belonged to a few - 5 altogether, 3 presently.) about sinless perfection in God's eyes. You can imagine how 1 John 3:9 goes over in liberal denominations. LOL At least, SDA can be respected to follow the law, instead of turning the grace of God into licentiousness. So, no, I'm not against you at all. Just want you to hunger for the whole truth in what God means by His inspired Word. There is only one Truth, not the twisted interpretations by so many, especially out of the Reformation, and only God knows what that is, and He is willing to tell those who ask and expect an answer. Many times it comes early in the morning as I'm just waking up before I've even opened my eyes. It seems the best time for Him to get through all the clutter in my mind.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Are you really not understanding this or are you just doing a "but you said...." to try to "get" me on something?

Let me try to explain once again..

The covenant God made with the Israelites at Sinai was for them and their descendants until Christ came to fulfil the law of that covenant. This was true regardless of whether they ruled over their own nation(s) or not because they were either at the mountain themselves, or they were descended from an Israelite who was there. At some point, they became known as Jews rather than Israelites.

Now the non-Israelites who lived with them when the Israelites/Jews governed their own land(s) were not *personally* under this covenant. If they were to move away from the land(s) that the Israelites governed, then they would be free to practice whatever customs/traditions the wished. However, while they lived in the land(s) of Israel, they were required to obey the "household rules" so to speak. They were circumcised, followed the diet restrictions, sabbath rituals, etc.

But an Israelite who moved away from the land(s) Israel ruled would still be under the covenant because he or she is an actual Israelite or Jewish descendant.

However, unless you are claiming that ALL non-Israelites in the world lived in the nation of Israel (or Judah) under Israelite judges, kings, etc., then the majority of non-Israelites/non-Jews would even be aware of any of these things any more than most of us are aware of all the details of what the Amish do, or Buddhist monks, or any other group of people we may have heard of but never intimately lived with or followed their traditions.



And humans have used these celestial things that God has made and created a multitude of different types of calendars, sundials, wristwatches, etc. Doesn't mean that ANY of these things match up with God's time. He isn't bound by anything he has created. He is God.



Actually, I love math and would love to find all this math that you claim exists in the accounts of creation in Genesis, but it is simply not there. It is more SDA tradition that makes assumption that isn't there. The books in the bible are not math books and were never intended to be used as math books, or even science books.

Is it possible for God to just made a mistake and left out the evening and morning for the second day, or is it very conspicuously NOT there for a reason? It's very obviously and noticeably different from the previous six days, but somehow God went, "Oops, I meant to put that in there. Oh well."

Hmmmm. It seems you made a mistake about the second day. Or did you make a typo and meant seventh day?

Genesis 1:
5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

13 So the evening and the morning were the third day.

19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

23 So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

As for the law, I agree with you that the law was only till the Seed should come - Jesus. But it was added because of transgressions of the whole world, not just the Jews. They were to be a beacon to the world, and spread the knowledge of the law, but instead:

Romans 2:
23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” as it is written. 25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

 

[bekkilyn]

Hmmmm. It seems you made a mistake about the second day. Or did you make a typo and meant seventh day?

Genesis 1:
5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

13 So the evening and the morning were the third day.

19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

23 So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

As for the law, I agree with you that the law was only till the Seed should come - Jesus. But it was added because of transgressions of the whole world, not just the Jews. They were to be a beacon to the world, and spread the knowledge of the law, but instead:

Romans 2:
23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” as it is written. 25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Gah, yes, I meant to type "seventh" day, not "second" day!!

Yes, I agree that the Israelites definitely didn't do what they were supposed to in carrying out that mission. I think that's a big reason why God gave the Israelites all of those written codes and made that Sinai covenant with them. They may not ever have needed it had they carried out the mission that God had intended for them in the first place. Of course, they messed that up too and lost their lands to the various empires that followed each other because God had told them he would keep the covenant with them and that they would live long in the lands he gave them *IF* they kept it, and we all know that they broke the covenant numerous times.

I've even been called a heretic on another site (I have belonged to a few - 5 altogether, 3 presently.) about sinless perfection in God's eyes. You can imagine how 1 John 3:9 goes over in liberal denominations. LOL

Not that I want to derail the thread, but this sounded interesting.

I'm guessing some believe that once we become Christians, we are considered sinless and perfect (without really understanding what that means in context) and are thus free to carry out murdering sprees, bank robberies, and other such things at will.