• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Scriptures that say not all are saved

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Hidden Manna, Feb 8, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. silentreader

    silentreader Senior Veteran

    +84
    Christian
    Single
    this is just flat wrong. Galatians chapter 6 clearly defines how a brother should help another brother who is living in sin. I quote:

    "1Brothers,[a] if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. 2Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. 3For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor. 5For each will have to bear his own load. "

    this clearly shows that we are to help our brothers that transgress (denying Christ in this lifetime is a transgression btw).

    you, by your own lips, preach a false Gospel. your idea of perfect justice is contradictory to the nature of God. so no, you did not show me a valid definition of justice.

    not explicitely no, but there are many tenets of faith , e.g. THE TRINITY, which are not explicitely mentioned. but they are there for those reading with the Holy Spirit.

    i have succesfully rebuted all misinterpretations of actual quoted verses in this thread. i am hardly going to be admonished by a person who can't even take the time to quote Scripture and who likes to 'use his own words'.

    His wrath is an attribute of God, not God the Father as a whole. I know this is difficult to understand so don't worry if you don't get it. it is a secondary conclusion based on the primary conclusion that one must accept Christ as his Savior in this life or one goes to hell.

    Wrath and love perform seperate functions, hence God is not divided.

    ummm, nowhere in the Bible does it say that denying Christ in this lifetime is OK. quite the opposite. sorry but your exegesis is severly lacking. my notion of God's wrath in hell while His Word is in heaven is not a completely original idea. but it does fit the nature of God and does not contradict anything in the Bible. It is not fundamental to my salvation. your claim that denying Christ in this lifetime (without repenting) is however, fundamental to your (lack of) salvation.
     
  2. Soul Searcher

    Soul Searcher The kingdom is within

    +3,381
    Christian Seeker
    Married
    It would appear that you do not understand what "caught in a trangression" means.

    You would not know justice if it hit you over the head apparently. Read the sermon on the mount sometime. Nothing could possibly be more just than to be treated exactly as you have treated others, judged the way you have judged others, ounished as you have punished others. Nothing could possibly be more unjust than the levy of a penalty that is 10 gazillion times more severe than the crime(s) then at the same time granting pardon to other guilty of crimes all based on what doctorines they believe. It is the most ridiculous thing that has ever been taught and yet there are millions of people going down this broad road of destruction totally duped by these fear tatics, it is a sad thing.

    So now you are impling that you have the holy spirit and I do not I see.. come down off your high horse dude.

    No you haven't succesfully rebutted anything,

    Show me the scripture that shows how Gods wrath is part of God that can be seperate from God who is love. Is he now a quadrinity?

    The bible also tells us that God will be all in all. It does not tell us that part of God will be seperated to punish sinners and that part of God will be seperated to reward believers. It says that all things will be under him and he will be all in all. Your seperation, division whatever doctorine is not scriptural and results in nonsense.


    Of course not you heard it from someone else, but what you did not do is read it in scripture because it does not appear in scripture.

    I did not say what you claim I claim, and you have no clue as to my status with God. The fact that you would say such a thing just proves how blind you really are to the truth of the spirit. You have came in here judging everyone without a clue what you are even talking about, your assertions are not found in scripture and I find your comments about who is or is not saved and who is or is not a Christains very insulting.
     
  3. Benoni

    Benoni Guest

    +0
    Silent,

    I wish you orthodox types would all come here at once; I feel like a broken record. We get you here and enjoy your company; prove you’re wrong and never hear from you again. I have been gone all day so I took a quick read of this forum.

    But my question to you is simple. Where in the Bible do you get we have a freewill? Freewill is not a scriptural point. Without freewill your doctrine of eternal hell and torment has no merit. We are saved by grace; not freewill. No where does it say you have a choice for salvation. Where does it say we choose salvation? If any thing the Bible teaches totally contrary to the false doctrine of freewill.
     
  4. StudentoftheWord

    StudentoftheWord Steward of the Word

    +46
    Christian
    In Relationship
    So pride prevents you from admitting when you are going to be proven wrong, huh? Sorry to test you bro, but I have to test all spirits to see if they are from God. I don't need to show you my excemption because now even I do, I know it will not be beneficial. You know what Jesus said about caring for pearls.

    All you had to say was, "If I am wrong, I will change my mind." Then I would have given you the exceptions found in Scripture. However, now we (those who are trying to explain to you what we believe) all know, you are not teachable, you are just here to argue it. I don't time for that. There are many others who want to know what we believe before they consider the doubts. I will spend my time on those who respect each other and learn from one another.

    I know all the arguments because I had the same ones. I know your objection because I know what you believe. You do not know what I believe, but you need to ask questions, not presuppositions.
     
  5. HomeBound

    HomeBound Learning in the meantime

    +38
    Christian
    Single
    Of course I'm clinging to God's perfect love. God is Love!

    You seem to have the idea that once a person dies, they can no longer approach God through Jesus. That's a very worldly way of looking at it, and may I add, a very God Limiting way of looking at it.

    And by comparison, your interpretation doesn't "satisfy" the God is Love attribute. How do you reconcile that with your spirit?

    Jesus is the light that lights in ALL men. Not all men have recognized that fact, but they will. We are assured of that.
     
  6. Hidden Manna

    Hidden Manna Veteran

    +10
    Christian
    The power for salvation always comes from God. He alone is able. Consider these verses. “He (Jesus Christ) came unto His own, and His own received him not. But as many as received Him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:11-13) Notice, please, that the power to become the sons of God (salvation) was to those that received Him.

    Notice, also, that man cannot bring salvation to anyone, including himself, for it’s not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Who can receive salvation without God? No one!

    The only verse one really needs to refute Universalism is John 3:16. “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” This verse is telling us the same truth we saw in the first chapter of John. Here it uses the words believes in Him rather than received Him, but it is the same truth.

    Our New Testament is replete with examples, but let this account with the Philippian jailer be adequate. “And he brought them out and said, ‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’ So they said, ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.’” (Acts 16:30-31) What do we understand from these examples? Clearly, believing in Jesus Christ is necessary for our salvation.

    The Universalist loves to use verses that appear to prove his point. Here’s an example: “And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.” (1 John 2:2) Jesus was, indeed, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29), but that does not mean everyone receives Him or believes in Him. Hebrews states it most clearly. “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.” (Hebrews 11:6) What is that reward? It is God Himself and eternal life in Him.

    Jesus Christ is in the exact center of all God does, yesterday, today, and forever. Universalism removes Jesus Christ from the center and relegates Him to the sidelines. What Jesus did in the past was absolutely necessary, says the Universalist, but that is all finished now. We don’t need Jesus anymore. Salvation is now automatic for everyone. Men don’t have to believe in Jesus. They don’t have to love Him. They don’t even have to like Him. Everyone receives salvation, even Judas Iscariot, according to Universalism.
    Hint—whenever Jesus Christ is not the centerpiece of a particular teaching, that teaching is not of God.

    Under the doctrine of Universalism, the Gospel becomes an old-fashioned, outdated message. It was necessary for the first century, of course, but not for today. The all-inclusive work of Jesus Christ saves all of humanity forever. Who needs Jesus or the Gospel? All mankind reaps eternal life automatically. Why bother preaching the Gospel when all men become God’s children regardless of what they believe? (This contradicts the Bible that calls the Good News the everlasting Gospel in Revelation 14:6.)

    Universalism is unbiblical. It leaves the way of truth and places Jesus Christ on the periphery of God’s plan of redemption. It declares repentance out of date, the born-again experience unnecessary, and accuses those who criticize Universalism as not understanding the fullness of God’s “grace.” God’s true grace is in His Son, Jesus Christ. He saves you as an individual. Salvation is an intimate, personal experience with the Lord. It is not an impersonal, universal principle for all mankind.

    One last thought in closing. In the world today many saints witness for Jesus Christ at the risk of their freedom, their well being, and their very lives. One organization that reports on these activities is The Voice of the Martyrs.

    These faithful saints live in repressive regimes. The powers that be hate the Gospel and the name of Jesus Christ. It takes great courage and Holy Spirit power to enable these children of God to preach and teach the hope of salvation in Christ.

    Many go to prison. Many suffer disfigurement, and many die. They think it is worth it for the privilege of telling the lost about Jesus Christ and His salvation. They believe God enables them to infiltrate the darkness. We believe He does, too. One wonders what these courageous saints would say to the teachers of the false doctrine of Universalism?

    The universalist are particularly guilty of using biblical
    words with non-biblical definitions. This is absolutely necessary
    amongst them in order to maintain some sort of internal consistency of theology. It says that all mankind, even those who have openly rejected Jesus, those who have willingly committed horrible crimes and died without repentance, and without the covering of Christ’s blood, will enjoy a future with God. This belief is based upon the idea that God’s love is so infinitely great, that His grace in Christ is so awesome, that everyone will be saved. This simply is not true.

    The danger of universalism is that it to can give someone a false
    sense of security about their eternal destiny. It can remove the
    need of accountability. It can remove the fear of judgment. It does
    not require repentance. A person who adopts universalism can easily conclude that if he is going to be saved no matter what he does, then why be concerned about repentance or accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior? This potential error is most dangerous. Especially because if universalism is not true, then the false sense of security it has given to those who have not trusted in Christ, will
    lead them to damnation. This is a very serious danger. Of course, simply because it is possible that people will become lax in accepting Christ if they adopt universalism, it does not mean
    this is what will happen. Nor does it mean that all Universalists
    think they can go out and sin willfully. On the contrary, most
    Universalists are very moral. But, there is the inherent danger in
    universalism that reduces the need for repentance and salvation.
    This is a great risk. Eternity is a long time to be wrong and hell
    is a terrible place to be forever.

    “For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of
    the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a
    certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire
    which will consume the adversaries” (NASB).

    If Paul meant that (ALL were made alive in Christ the way this group puts it, he would not have wrote the above. There is a danger in the Universalist position.
     
  7. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

    +283
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Wow!

    You really have no idea what your talking about do you?

    do you really think God's word is only a one shot deal limited to the time and place where He said it?

    I desire mercy not sacrifice only applies to the pharisee's?

    Wow!

    that's all I can say.
     
  8. StudentoftheWord

    StudentoftheWord Steward of the Word

    +46
    Christian
    In Relationship
    Are you even reading anything we are presenting to you individually when we say, "Hidden Manna, this is...", or are you just asking rhetorical questions, saying rhetorical things, and ignoring those who have already addressed almost everything you just presented earlier?

    It just looks like you are writing a sermon, not having a conversation concerning it. A conversation to yourself, without regard to the people around you who have already demonstrated and explained your objections, you need to now object to their objections. You don't seem to be doing that or having a conversation about it. :S
     
  9. silentreader

    silentreader Senior Veteran

    +84
    Christian
    Single
    hmmm denying Christ is not a transgression? i think your credibility is officially gone.

    i see you are completely fooled by Satan now. he has convinced you that hell doesn't exist because it is unfair. your definition of fair requires God to forsake His holiness and allow Himself to be present with someone who denied Him throughout his life. not a God, sounds more like something man-made.

    i see you ignored the fact that i pointed out that not all things are explicitely mentioned in Scripture. very typical of you throughout this thread. ignore the factual exegesis and go after perceived slights to yourself. let's stop focusing on you and start focusing on Scripture.

    do you understand the difference between a person of the Godhead and an attribute of God the Father? Once you do you wil come to the conclusion that there is no quadrinity inferred.

    there you go paraphrasing again. can you please post the verse(s) you refer to so i can see the intended context. I know the context of your paraphrasing and it is to paint a picture for universalism. i want to understand the context as it was written by the author.

    i answered this previously so consider it closed.

    neither is the Trinity, your point is? so far you haven't even quoted verses, much less done a thorough exegesis. you do paraphrase well though.


    i do know you are preaching a false gospel. i leave it to God to deal with that. knowing my God, He wil do everything he can to remove the scabs from your eyes.
     
  10. silentreader

    silentreader Senior Veteran

    +84
    Christian
    Single

    God's word must be interpreted as the time and place. it is called context. if not then, an eye for an eye would still be ok for Christians. i see you ignored the fact that God was speaking to imperfect humans in that verse. Christ was perfect and, as such, there was no vanity in the sacrifice. hence the verse is a moot point because it would never apply to him. until you want to use the common rules for exegesis please don't bother responding.
     
  11. silentreader

    silentreader Senior Veteran

    +84
    Christian
    Single
    you repeat the same old tired mantra of universalism. all the while, not seeing your definition of love is an abomination. Love does not allow sin to continue. God clearly says, through Paul, that all men have given enough information from God to accept Christ's sacrifice.

    if you want to convice me then use verses for every point you believe in. universalism paraphrasing is not going to do it and shows a lack of conviction.
     
  12. StudentoftheWord

    StudentoftheWord Steward of the Word

    +46
    Christian
    In Relationship
    Silentreader, all I have been seeing is your opinions of what is right and wrong. You have not demonstrated it at all. You just continue saying, "That is wrong." etc. Where is your support, why do you continue to use presuppositions and not arguments to make your position? To Soul Searcher, Homebound, Martymonster, and myself, you continue to say, "That is not what it says...", etc. but you are without substance or propositional argument to uphold what, why and how you believe it not to be true. You are new at this aren't you? You believe something but unable to come up with support and so all you have is your opinion on what it should say, instead of taking Scripture as what it does say or actually taking to task the propositional argument to it's full extent to rebuttle it. You aren't talking to a layman when you are discussing things, I am an apologetist for the last 10 years in the ministry, doing what you think you are trying to do.
     
  13. Soul Searcher

    Soul Searcher The kingdom is within

    +3,381
    Christian Seeker
    Married
    As I said it appears that you do not know what caught in a transgression means. It means when one is caught in a transgression of the law. Someone is stealing, harming another person, bearing false witness ect.

    Jesus did say whoever denies me before men I will deny before the father, this however is not a transgression of the law and it is totally beside the point as no one here is doing that anyway. Yet the fact remains that nowhere does it say that our salvation is limited to this life only.

    You see nothing, and I grow tired of your insults.

    You do not have a clue what the nature of God is do you.

    I di dnot ignore it. I know that much of what you have said is not in scripture it comes from traditions of men, dogma, lies, half truths and false doctorine. On the other hand what I have said is in scripture which you ignore in favor of your stuff that is not in scripture.

    I understand that your concept is seriously flawed.

    I'm sorry that you do not know your scriptures well enough to know what I am talking about wihtout me taking the time to look up and quote the scriptures.

    Your answer is gibberish.

    That's right the trinity is not in scripture, it is a word that men came up with to passify those who had different beliefs about the nature of God, Jesus and the holy spirit. That does not however mean that you can constantly spout stuff that is not in scripture and present it as though it were. You need to drop the dogma and focus of what scripture really says.

    That's not true I did give you some verses earlier when you asked for them. First I told you where they could be found then I actually quoted them. You proceed to ignore them completely. I find it unlikely that you would not know where these scriptures are, unless of course you just don't know the bible very well, If however you want scriptures for whatever I have said ask and ye shall receive. The thing is that sometimes when I am posting, I do not go look up verses, I know these very well and I either quote or paraphrase from memory, so far you are the only one who has saw that as a problem.

    Thank you.

    Now for the verses which you previously ignored which show that God is not willing that any should perish and wills that all be saved.

    2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
    1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
    1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
    1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


    Let me ask you a few questions concerning your doctorine.

    What happens to the nonbeliever who forgives men thier trespasses?
    What happens to the merciful nonbeliever?

    What happens to the believer who does not forgive men thier trespasses?
    What happens to the believer who is not merciful?


    So far I have not hear one word of Gospel from your keyboard. Just dogma. The gospel is the good news of the kingdom of God, not hellfire threats.

    He did so many years ago, hoepfully someday soon he will do the same for you.
     
  14. HomeBound

    HomeBound Learning in the meantime

    +38
    Christian
    Single
    "Love does not allow sin to continue. God clearly says, through Paul, that all men have given enough information from God to accept Christ's sacrifice."

    First of all, are you saying that God does not allow sin to continue? That your interpretation of God's love ends sin?
    LOOK AROUND YOU! And not just in your own back yard. I say that God's perfect love endures regardless of the sin.

    As for "all men given enough information from God to accept Christs sacrifice" What does that mean to you? Do you just accept this scripture to mean that no one has an excuse for not accepting Christ's sacrifice? Or do you believe that God has revealed (and continues to reveal) to EVERYONE that Jesus died for our sins?
     
  15. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

    +283
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Perhaps you should go and look up some of the stuff that the apostles quoted.

    Way out of context!


    context is a stupid human idea, not one found in the bible at all.
     
  16. Katmando

    Katmando Regular Member

    159
    +1
    Christian
    Married
    Cut and paste from http://www.preterist.org/refutingerror.asp

    Cut and paste from http://www.carm.org/uni/dangerunie.htm

    Perhaps we can have a discussion with you and not other web sites.
     
  17. Katmando

    Katmando Regular Member

    159
    +1
    Christian
    Married
    I find it Ironic, the topic of this thread is "Scriptures that say not all are saved"

    But then not one single one is posted. :scratch:


    (1Co 15:28 KJV) And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    Katmando
     
  18. Katmando

    Katmando Regular Member

    159
    +1
    Christian
    Married

    Cut and paste from CARM.

    Did you come here to actually have a discussion or just want people to read other websites?


    Katmando
     
  19. Katmando

    Katmando Regular Member

    159
    +1
    Christian
    Married
    Another CARM cut and paste.

    Is your name Matt Slick?

    Katmando
     
  20. HisWordIsMySword

    HisWordIsMySword Senior Member

    793
    +20
    Married
    US-Others
    Dear Hidden Manna,

    Your original post is right on. Well done.


    Many who believe in the once saved, alway saved doctrine will be surprised come the day of reconing. This false teaching is going to claim many souls to death and hell. It is a false sense of security.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...