Scriptures that say not all are saved

[Hidden Manna]

As far as Freewill goes I will say God also has His own freewill in that He chooses to draw us and He chooses for us to be saved if we choose to believe and follow Him.

God's freewill to draw some and not others is His own free choice, but this has to do with salvation.

Some of the croc posted here lead us to belief we are robots and are forced to do every step and breath out of our God given will to choose.

This would lead we to believe that everytime someone commits suicide or moleste a baby is done according to God's will which is total croc and anyone who leads us to believe that way is nuts.

Now concerning flames of hell what happened to Jerusalem in AD 70 could be considered the wrath Jesus spoke of in Matt.24 and Luke 21 when Jerusalem literally burned with fire.

Literal things have a way to foreshadow what has,is and will happen in the spiritual realm.

 

[Hidden Manna]

You get technical totally with us; but then we dare not get technical with you. Freewill is not only not in scripture it is contrary to scripture.

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.


I have seen these verses used before to explain freewill; but how can you take two Old Testament verses to explain something that happened only in the New Testament. Salvation comes though the death and resurrection of Jesus on the cross. What I have found are verses that are totally contrary to the doctrine of freewill. We are saved by grace not freewill. God must draw or drag us.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Gk(drag) all men unto me.

1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):

I do not believe that the Bible anywhere teaches that man is a free moral agent. That teaching is a figment of the imagination of the harlot church system. In fact, the Bible teaches the exact opposite. It tells us, " It is not of him that willeth or of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." Rom. 9:16. Someone will ask, "Will God save men eventually against their will?" The answer is no! He will have no need to do that, for all Men will be one hundred percent willing when God reveals Himself to them. Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. We have only to consider the case of Saul of Tarsus to understand the miraculous power of the Lord to change the leopard's spots and melt the heart of stone. No man was evermore hateful toward Christ than Was Saul of Tarsus, yet, when his turn came to see the light, he changed in an Instant, crying out in fear and trembling and with bitter repentance. "Who art Thou, Lord'?" and "What wilt Thou have me to do?" It is God that controls the will, and He turns the hearts of mighty and rebellious kings as easily as He turns the water courses. Even in the case of Pharaoh the Lord Himself took the responsibility for the hardening of his heart. Had He not done so, Pharaoh would have yielded long before he did. The truth is that Pharaoh's hard heart was not hard enough to accomplish the difficult task the Lord had appointed for him, so the Lord undertook to harden his heart on six occasions until all His plan and will was accomplished through him. George Hawton

I sorry but I did not mean for you to be offended when I said you were getting technical with us, but according to your view God must have forced you to be so easily offended. It that love, if so show me where by example in scripture being so easily offended is love.

One other thing is that you say all men will be drawn to God and be saved. I this is true then most men will choose Christ and choose to follow Him after they physical die because many have died rejecting Christ on their death bed and never did repent.

This does not make sense and steps over the borderline of sanity. That is why I believe universalism is nuts. Sorry but if you are right I have no choice to believe this way because God is forcing me to. does that make sense?

 

[HomeBound]

I know it's a bit late but, bringing up the "ages" subject again...

An age is a measurement of time. Anything bound by time must be like grains of sand in the endless beach of eternity.

It's quite possible that there may be trillions of ages we are yet to see and not necessarily only here on Earth. When time is no more, we will see the end of the ages.

 

[katallasso]

I know it's a bit late but, bringing up the "ages" subject again...

An age is a measurement of time. Anything bound by time must be like grains of sand in the endless beach of eternity.

It's quite possible that there may be trillions of ages we are yet to see and not necessarily only here on Earth. When time is no more, we will see the end of the ages.

 

[silentreader]

Romans 3:3
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

We also have the sure word that every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father.

Hi,

All your verse says is that the unbelief of some does not negate the faithulness of God. It does not say all will bow down to Christ in this life. All will bow down in judgement to Christ in the afterlife.

 

[Hidden Manna]

I know it's a bit late but, bringing up the "ages" subject again...

An age is a measurement of time. Anything bound by time must be like grains of sand in the endless beach of eternity.

It's quite possible that there may be trillions of ages we are yet to see and not necessarily only here on Earth. When time is no more, we will see the end of the ages.[/QUOTE}

I can list at least seven ages of time throughout the scriptures, only two are emntioned in them. The age which the first century Christians were in which probably began with Moses and and age that was to come IMO the age that was to come came in AD70 when the old covenant system was destroyed and the Kingdom of Jesus Christ began. this is the Preterist view which according to some here I have no choice in to believe because God is forcing me to believe this way.

 

[katallasso]

Hey Student,

I like the way you put this, "the gifts are outside our control, but the rewards are within our will to obtain."

Originally Posted by Hidden Manna
Okay that is easy, God loves us so much that He has given us free choice and will not control us like robots. He gives us free choice in our decisions so that if we choose that we do not want to be with Him forever God has prepared a place for those whom He loves that do not want to be with Him forever.

Marty replied: No offence but........

What a Croc!

If that was the case, and if God is really Love, then He would let people choose freely without any consequences because that is what choosing freely really is.

What you have just said is this.

God loves freewill more than He loves His children.

Is this what the Bible teaches?

No, this is a twisting of the scriptures to make Hell make sense but it doesn't work and you can only attempt to twist the scriptures so far before it's completely transparent, which is what it is!

To me the Father has chosen to call Himself this so we would relate to Him as such. What father would not go as far out of his way as possible to convince his child of a truth ? He is able to do so and will reconcile the whole of His creation to Himself.

Don't you just love the way I brighten things up around here ?

kat

 

[StudentoftheWord]

Now concerning flames of hell what happened to Jerusalem in AD 70 could be considered the wrath Jesus spoke of in Matt.24 and Luke 21 when Jerusalem literally burned with fire.

Literal things have a way to foreshadow what has,is and will happen in the spiritual realm.

Good that you see that natural comes first, then the spiritual, as Paul states. There was a literal destruction of Isreal, Judah, Jerusalem and the Temple at the same time, Gehenna Judgment states a restoration of all things because God's wrath does not abide forever, His Loving-Kindness endures.

Lamentations 3:22, 32-33
It is because of the Lord's mercy and loving-kindness that we are not consumed, because His [tender] compassions fail not.

For the Lord will not cast off forever!


But though He causes grief, yet will He be moved to compassion according to the multitude of His loving-kindness and tender mercy. For He does not willingly and from His heart afflict or grieve the children of men.

Titus 3:5-6
He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but because of His own pity and mercy, by [the] cleansing [bath] of the new birth (regeneration) and renewing of the Holy Spirit, which He poured out [so] richly upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior.

1 Timothy 4:9-11
This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially [not only] of those who believe. Command and teach these things.

Romans 11:29-32
For God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Scripture is clear, He saved all mankind because of His Loving-Kindness, especially (above all) those who believe it!

Craig

 

[StudentoftheWord]

Okay that is easy, God loves us so much that He has given us free choice and will not control us like robots. He gives us free choice in our decisions so that if we choose that we do not want to be with Him forever God has prepared a place for those whom He loves that do not want to be with Him forever.

I agree, we are not robots, we do have free-will within the boundaries and limitations which are placed on us. In Him we live, and move and have our being. All mankind must face the consequences of their actions. We will either suffer loss, or recieve a reward.

http://www.studentoftheword.com/FreeWillPart01.html
http://www.studentoftheword.com/Evangelism.html

I hope that this may help you understand the difference between the gifts and calling which is irrevocable and the rewards and wages which can be lost or gained by our freedom of will concerning them. A gift is dependant upon the one giving it, not recieving it. A rewards/wage is dependant on one working for it, not giving it. Salvation has and always been referred to as a gift from God, while the rewards are things which accompany salvation can be given to us as a blessing or lost and burned up.

Hebrews 6:7-9
Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation (the only foundation which has been laid) using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

There is only one foundation and it has already been laid. It is the Stone of Zion, the Rock of Ages, Jesus Christ! He is either the Cornerstone, or the Capstone. All mankind was created through Him, for Him, by Him and in Him.

Isaiah 28:16
So this is what the Sovereign LORD says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who trusts will never be dismayed.

Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

Colossians 1:15-17
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

So if you trust in the foundation, you build good things and reap a reward, a harvest of blessings. If you do not trust in the foundation, you build perishable things and suffer loss. Those who trust the foundation are on sure footing, those who do not trust the foundation stumble along it.

Psalm 118:22-23
The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the LORD has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes.

1 Peter 2:7
Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone."

That is why:

1 Timothy 4:9-11
This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially [not only] of those who believe. Command and teach these things.

So do you understand that the reason it is especially of believers is because this Stone is precious, we know what it is! Everyone is building with that stone, whether it is the cornerstone, or the capstone. There is no other foundation which any man can lay, then the only foundation which has been laid and that is Jesus Christ. There is no other foundation one can build on, whether they know it or not, all mankind builds on this foundation!

Acts 17:25-28
He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'

It is amazing and these are facts which cannot be denied. There is no argument around this. He gives life to all mankind and all things. He made all mankind live on the face of the earth. He determined their times and boundaries. In Him all mankind live and move and exist. All mankind are His children.

Craig

 

[Benoni]

Hidden Manna

First of all you did not offend me; it is just is not God’s Word the standard we are using as our foundation or traditions.

My view? Did I not quote scripture? Maybe a little Greek? If anyone is a robot it is a carnal natural person who is a slave to sin; who is dead in trust passes and sin; which we covered.

The greatest of all deceptions of God’s people is to limit God’s Word to religious dogma.

I want God to choose me, to drag me; what ever it takes. We have the most awesome book ever written to mankind on this earth and most religious men believe they have it all figured out and so they place it in their preconceived little religious box; and that is all they have is religion. Religion is nothing but man’s covering. First example of religion was in the Garden of Eden and most religious people cannot even see the example.

I understand how you are turned off to Universalism; I my self did not know I was a Universalist till about a year a go; later I learned I am a Christian Universalist.

I am after truth; not religion. That is why I am where I am now.

The deep things of God are hidden; the deeper you go the less religion will agree. God does not call systems; He calls men. What does the word Church mean in the Greek? You will never see or understand the mysteries of God’s Word with in those man made religious dogma/walls. The deep things of God are an offense; a stone of stumbling.

This is not a message for baby Christians; but a message for some one who no longer drinks the milk of baby Christians in religious systems; but has matured where they are not going to choke on a spiritual steak.

I did not say all men will be drawn to God now; that is God’s timing. God is only drawing a firstfruit company; then the remainder of mankind. He is setting up the Tabernacle of David (what is the Tabernacle of David) now though a people that hear what He is saying; not the 22,000 religious systems of religious systems, dogma, creeds, traditions and denomination.

Yes the vast majority of mankind has rejected God; on there death bed; or because they hate everything, anything or anyone associated with religion. Or they live in some country like Iran/Somalia/Communist Russia/China what ever reason. You are speaking of John 3:16. Have you ever dug a bit into the Greek of that scripture which is the main foundation for all of Christianity? You should; also note the next verse. Is not John 3:16 a verse that religion uses to condemn the heathen.

 

[katallasso]

My Lord, I did not choose You,
For that could never be;
My heart would still refuse You,
Had You not chosen me.
You took the sin that stained me,
You cleansed me, made me new;
Of old You have ordained me,

That I should live in You.
Unless Your grace had called me
And taught my op’ning mind,
The world would have enthralled me,
To heav’nly glories blind.
My heart knows none above You;
For Your rich grace I thirst;
I know that if I love You,
You must have loved me first.

http://cyberhymnal.org/htm/m/l/mlidncyo.htm

 

[StudentoftheWord]

One other thing is that you say all men will be drawn to God and be saved. I this is true then most men will choose Christ and choose to follow Him after they physical die because many have died rejecting Christ on their death bed and never did repent.

This does not make sense and steps over the borderline of sanity. That is why I believe universalism is nuts. Sorry but if you are right I have no choice to believe this way because God is forcing me to. does that make sense?

I am going to address this if you do not mind. For those who are dying in their deathbed, they have no time to repent in this life. They are held responsible for their sins and like all who do not change their mind (repent), will suffer loss. Yet, all mankind will be raised from the dead which means that they will alive again and this is when they will come to realization of who their true Lord and Savior is, they would be put to shame for their shameful ways. Because they are raised from the dead along with the righteous, they are set free from their body of death and made alive unto Christ and His wonderful knowledge.

John 5:25
I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

1 Timothy 2:3-5
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

For some, this is in the resurrection of the dead.

Philippians 2:9-11
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Romans 10:10b
...it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Isaiah 45:23-24
By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear allegiance. They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone are righteousness and strength.' " All who have raged against him will come to him and be put to shame.


So once again, you cannot deny the facts presented for your information. You can believe it is nuts, but what is impossible for man, is possible for God. God is not forcing any man anything beyond their choice. It is the choice of all mankind to be free of what snares them, to be at peace in their inner being. There is not one person alive who ever desired in full honesty (unless they are sick, then they must be healed [salvation]) the best for themselves. So when presented with the best, no man can deny it.

 

[Pneuma3]

Originally Posted by Pneuma3 http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=31673269#post31673269
Romans 3:3
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

We also have the sure word that every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father.

Hi,

All your verse says is that the unbelief of some does not negate the faithulness of God.

Right, so is God faithful?
He sent His son into the world for the express salvation of the whole world and as He is faithful He will accomplish exactly that. Your unbelief does not make His faithfulness of non effect.

It does not say all will bow down to Christ in this life. All will bow down in judgement to Christ in the afterlife.

Right again, Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, some in this life others in the ages to come, but all will bow and confess Jesus Christ is Lord and this to the Glory of the Father.

Now we know that no man can say Jesus Christ is Lord except by the Holy Ghost 1co.12:3 and that confession is made unto salvation Ro.10:10.

So when every knee bows and tongue confesses Jesus Christ is Lord that confession is made unto salvation.

Originally Posted by Pneuma3 http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=31725957#post31725957
care to answer this question.

God is Love, By way of Love God send His son into the world to save it, and Love never fails.

So explain why you beleive love to have failed to save the whole world.

Okay that is easy, God loves us so much that He has given us free choice and will not control us like robots. He gives us free choice in our decisions so that if we choose that we do not want to be with Him forever God has prepared a place for those whom He loves that do not want to be with Him forever.

God loves us so much that if we do not want to be saved then He will give us the desires of our heart because He will not want any person to suffer being with Him if they choose to live in hell under His wrath

.

Silent, you really need to think these things through.
So you’re saying Love fails because God gave us free will.
Does that not contradict the scriptures?, as we are expressly told love never fails.
Not only are you asserting Love fails because of free will, you are placing the blame for love failing squarely on Gods shoulders for giving us free will.
Thus blaming God for not saving the whole world.
You have taken the sovereignty for mans salvation out of Gods hands and placed salvation squarely on the free will of man.
You have taken the clay out of the potters hand to mold as He sees fit.


Speaking of the salvation of all men Paul states.

Romans 8:20
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

So what do you do with free will here?
Did God subject all of creation to vanity against their will then leave it up to man’s free will to save themselves?

Did God give man free will so that man can be eternally tormented or annihilated?

What kind of Father places in the hands of a child the means by which he destroys himself.

Yet is this not what you believe God has done by giving man a free will.

Love NEVER fails bro/sis, and it was by Love and through Love that God sent His son into the world for its salvation, and it is because Love NEVER fails we are assured that the salvation of the world is surely to come to pass.

What greater testimony can God give man then Love NEVER fails.

 

[silentreader]

If you don't believe All will be saved then you don't understand what Love really is. "God is Love" is a very strong statement. There are many who are blind to the impact and power of that statement.

The concept of unconditional love has been so perverted in us humans, it's no wonder some believe that unconditional love could toss a sinner into a burning pit for eternity.

But I believe God's love surpasses any idea in my tiny brain (or any of ours for that matter) as to what real love is.

Perhaps we would get to a point where we stop forgiving someone for hurting us. But we are assured that that would never happen with God.

You seem to cling to God's perfect love as reason God will save all people, even those who deny Christ in this lifetime. Unfortunately you are forgetting another attribute of God, holiness. This requires, by definition, that noone can come to Him except through Christ (due to His perfect sacrifice). If a person denies Christ then that person cannot approach God. You are picking and choosing which attributes of God on which to base your Scriptural interpretation. That is your mistake. Any intepretation must satisfy all attributes of God.

 

[StudentoftheWord]

That is your mistake. Any intepretation must satisfy all attributes of God.

Do not make a mistake yourself silentreader, everything that you call an attribute, whether it is anger, wrath, judgment, justice, etc. is founded on the one and only characteristic of God and that is Love. So we must measure every attribute against the Love of God, because God is not just loving, He is Love. If it is not from Love, it is not from God.

 

[Pneuma3]

You seem to cling to God's perfect love as reason God will save all people, even those who deny Christ in this lifetime. Unfortunately you are forgetting another attribute of God, holiness. This requires, by definition, that noone can come to Him except through Christ (due to His perfect sacrifice). If a person denies Christ then that person cannot approach God. You are picking and choosing which attributes of God on which to base your Scriptural interpretation. That is your mistake. Any intepretation must satisfy all attributes of God.

Love is not an attribute of God, God IS Love.
Big differance.

 

[silentreader]

Do not make a mistake yourself silentreader, everything that you call an attribute, whether it is anger, wrath, judgment, justice, etc. is founded on the one and only characteristic of God and that is Love. So we must measure every attribute against the Love of God, because God is not just loving, He is Love. If it is not from Love, it is not from God.

agreed and it is because of God's love that He cannot allow the unholy to approach Him. To do so would violate His nature and make His Word a lie. Allowing those who deny Christ to be saved would violate His Holiness and His Love.

 

[silentreader]

Love is not an attribute of God, God IS Love.
Big differance.

You are mincing words here, though without actually saying what the difference is in your view. God is also Holiness, since none other are holy in the sight of the Lord (except through Christ). Just because I used it as an attribute does not negate the argument. from now on though I will refer to it in your manner to avoid the derailing of the argument. For the record:

God is Holiness
God is Love
God is Righteousnes

you get the point...

 

[Benoni]

agreed and it is because of God's love that He cannot allow the unholy to approach Him. To do so would violate His nature and make His Word a lie. Allowing those who deny Christ to be saved would violate His Holiness and His Love.

Nothing will violate God's nature. Nothing can make God's Word a lie; it is devine. He already saved them.

Luke 3: 6 (amp) And all mankind shall see (behold and [a]understand and at last acknowledge) the salvation of God
(the deliverance from eternal death decreed by God).

 

[StudentoftheWord]

agreed and it is because of God's love that He cannot allow the unholy to approach Him. To do so would violate His nature and make His Word a lie. Allowing those who deny Christ to be saved would violate His Holiness and His Love.

That is why Jesus was sent, He took upon Himself the sins of the world in order that it would not violate His nature. Jesus is an advocate, mediator, propitiation, sacrifice, etc.

John 3:17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Therefore, because it would violate His Nature no not allow the unholy to approach Him, He made them Holy through His Son justifying them while they were still sinners.

Romans 5:6-8
Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

Craig