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Scriptures that say not all are saved

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Hidden Manna, Feb 8, 2007.

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  1. HisWordIsMySword

    HisWordIsMySword Senior Member

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    One more thing I would like to say manna, is your post was of truth and that I copied it and posted it elsewhere, not of my work, but as the work of a fellow believer in Jesus.

    The truth of God's Word is not for one person, but all who believe and we all who are of that same spirit share that truth willingly. So I didn't think you would mind if I reposted your post elsewhere.
     
  2. Soul Searcher

    Soul Searcher The kingdom is within

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    If to be saved, means to go to heaven and not go to hell as many believe then once a person is saved they are always saved.

    Or are you suggesting that a person in heaven may be thrown into hell?

    The problem is that people see "saved" as someone responding to an altar call, and/or saying the sinners prayer. Then these same people believe that the same person may or may not end up in hell, what then were they saved from? They still sin, they still may end up in hell according to the church, They place salvation in the hands of the person, and deny that Jesus is the savior of all men.

    Sometimes I wonder are there any true believers in the church today or are they all just looking out for #1 just in case hell is real?
     
  3. Soul Searcher

    Soul Searcher The kingdom is within

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    The truth of God is for all people, not just those who believe.
     
  4. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    30 second sinner prayers and answering alter calls don't mean jack!

    It's what you do afterwards that counts for anything.

    If Jesus had said to the disciples "follow Me" and the disciples had said "OK" but just stood there and not did what Jesus had told them to then them saying OK to Jesus would have been for naught!

    What can you say for sure will get you into Heaven?
     
  5. Katmando

    Katmando Regular Member

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    Although, I believe those are good questions to ask. I agree that those questions will not find the Truth. You will find the Truth in the scriptures and once you do, you too might find yourself asking those same questions.


    Hidden, are you taking "the whole of scriptures" or cut-n-pasting pieces of other mens work? Maybe it is time for you to start examining these scriptures that these other men are talking about and evaluate them for yourself.

    No there is not. Only scripture that appears to be too the carnal mind and one that takes only the context of a certain chapter or paragraph. But when taken in context of the sum of all scriptures you will see the Truth in a whole new light.

    Narrow gate to what? Please show me where it is talking about salvation here? And what let me know what you think Salvation is.

    Many are called to what? To be saved here and now? - I do not think so . If it is what about the others that are not in the many called or few chosen? Why are they not called or chosen to be saved here and now?

    Let me guess you think when it says many that actually means all but when it says all it really means a few. I think we need to start being honest with ourselves and when we say (or in your case when you copy n paste someone) "If the Bible says it, that settles it" we should believe it.

    Let me ask a question. When is it do you think salvation occurs? We read in the Bible that some "will be saved" "Shall be saved" It is always in the future tense. What we have now is the promise, the hope, a don payment of what IS to come. If you disagree show me in the scriptures one person that is already saved.

    Lets not forget - "(Mat 24:13 KJV) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
    So unless you want to throw this verse (and many like it) out we must endure to the end before we are saved.

    I totally agree with everything in this paragraph except for the second sentence which I highlighted.

    Now hidden I know this is not your work but since you started this thread can you please post those scriptures that say all are not saved? Oh and I do understand what it is like when you read someone else s work and they explain it better than you ever could but don't you think if you are going to cut and paste you should use some of your own thoughts as well. Most of us that have came to realize the true glory of God in that he will save all thought the same as you at one time. That was until we stopped listening to everything someone else was saying and started reading the scriptures for ourself. Perhaps that would be a good idea for you?


    God Bless


    Katmando
     
  6. StudentoftheWord

    StudentoftheWord Steward of the Word

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    Wow, not much proof on the: "Scriptures that say not all are saved" side. Isn't one supposed to be armed properly before delaring a battle?
     
  7. Theogonia

    Theogonia Well-Known Member

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    :thumbsup:
     
  8. angelmom01

    angelmom01 Veteran Supporter

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    AMEN, so then where is that “free will” that we all have that says that WE must CHOOSE? Therefore it is UP TO US?


    Do you know what everlasting (eternal/aionios) Life IS? And WHEN one receives that?
    NOT ALL receive eternal life. MANY DO PERISH (apōleia, derived from apollumi) !! WIDE is the gate that leads to DESTRUCTION and many there be that go in there at.

    Thank God that Christ came to save THAT WHICH IS LOST (apollumi, those who are “perishing” or being “destroyed”)


    So he AND HIS HOUSEHOLD would be saved? Are you assuming that ‘they’ must ALSO believe to be saved? Does it say that?

    Didn’t Rahab also save ALL of her father’s household and ALL that she had because of HER FAITH?

    Believing is necessary for ETERNAL LIFE!! And not all pass from death UNTO LIFE. Some remain in darkness and die IN THEIR SINS. So if you equate eternal life WITH salvation then no not all are saved? As we know, many are LOST, it is these that Christ came TO SAVE. He did not come to call the righteous to repentance, but the sinner. Are any righteous?

    Absolutely!! So now what ~is~ eternal life? For this ~is~ something that ONLY THOSE WHO BELIEVE have. AMEN!! That LIFE is IN THE SON.
    You make things up if you believe that any Christian believes that Christ is not necessary. What Christ did at the cross ~is~ finished!! Or don’t YOU believe that?

    NO ONE can have ETERNAL LIFE without CHRIST!!! And not all receive eternal life (which is TO KNOW GOD AND JESUS CHRIST WHOM HE SENT). Many die in their sins without ever KNOWING GOD.

    The problem is that you see eternal life as something that you receive AFTER you die and leave THIS world… and that is NOT what eternal life is as defined BY THE SCRIPTURES and THE WORD OF GOD.
    Again, you need to take a look at what “eternal life” really is. As it is NOT something that ALL receive and TO KNOW GOD AND JESUS CHRIST and ~HAVE~ ETERNAL LIFE is what we should be preaching. That is not for some distant future, but for HERE AND NOW and that ~is~ THE REWARD that comes WITH HIM. If you have HIM you ~have~ ETERNAL LIFE and if you don’t you are DEAD, still in your sins, having NO LIFE in you.

    If you are not BORN AGAIN (born OF THE SPIRIT, as it is THE SPIRIT that quickens us) then you have NOT SEEN the kingdom of heaven (WITHIN). Christ is NOT on the “periphery”, he is ESSENTIAL to the gospel and to eternal life and salvation FROM SIN AND DEATH. NO ONE comes to the Father EXCEPT BY CHRIST, who is the DOOR and the LIFE. I’d say that makes him pretty essential. And yes, He comes TO THOSE WHO LOOK FOR HIM…. on an INDIVIDUAL basis. Who has said otherwise?
    Maybe many of the same things that you have said. Would that prove something?
    We’ll see won’t we?

    How about those who use non-biblical words to make them biblical ones and then use them to exclude others as “Christians”, though they themselves openly admit that the “concept” behind the “word” that are willing to DIVIDE over is “hard to understand and comprehend” (yet ESSENTIAL for salvation).

    So I guess God’s love is not “so infinitely great” and His grace in Christ is not “so awesome” to you?
    ALL men are accountable and ALL men will face the judgment seat of Christ. Who has said otherwise? Do you think that you won’t?

    Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.


    Is “all” not “all” in this case either?

    Faith AND REPENTANCE are NECESSARY for salvation and ETERNAL LIFE!!

    You bare false witness if you claim that those who believe that ALL will be saved and be brought to repentance IN THE END do not believe this.

    (continued for length)
     
  9. angelmom01

    angelmom01 Veteran Supporter

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    (continuation)
    AMEN!!!!! Who has denied this? What does "Consume" mean to you? Does it mean something else when used in the Bible then how it would otherwise be defined?

    Do you believe that the “adversaries” will be CONSUMED?

    Or will they be TORMENTED FOREVER?

    Isn’t that a contradiction? Will they be tormented FOR ETERNITY or will the “adversaries” be CONSUMED?




    2Co 5:18-20 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling ~THE WORLD~ unto himself, ~NOT IMPUTING their trespasses~ (whose? THE WORLD’S!!) ~unto them~; and hath committed unto us the word ~OF RECONCILIATION~. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

    Rom 14:7-10 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, WE ARE THE LORD’S. 9 For to this end Christ BOTH ~died, and rose~, and ~revived~, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

    The “dead” and the “living” has NOTHING to do with PHYSICAL life and death. It speaks of those WHO HAVE CHRIST (the LIFE is IN THE SON) and those who DON’T (dead in their sins, having NO LIFE in them, as defined BY CHRIST).

    We are ALL ~the Lord’s~. We ALL (both the WHEAT and the TARES) “grow together UNTIL HARVEST”.

    Paul said that some “fell asleep”. Many take that to mean that Paul was referring to those who KNEW Christ and died PHYSICALLY and these are they who are “dead in Christ”.

    I see it very differently. ALL have been reconciled (per verses just posted above) so ALL are “in Christ” as this is EXACTLY where our LIFE is HID.

    Col 3:2-4 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, WHO IS OUR LIFE, shall APPEAR, then shall ye also APPEAR with him in glory.

    We must PASS from death unto LIFE.

    Do all do that? NO!!!

    Does that mean that the fate for those who don’t is an eternity of hellfire? NO!!

    For those who “abide IN DEATH” are those who ~ARE~ IN HELL (hades). It is they who are “unseen” (their LIFE being HID, they being DEAD in Christ).

    BUT….

    Pro 15:24 The way OF LIFE is ABOVE to the wise, that he may DEPART FROM HELL BENEATH.

    The scriptures apply to THIS WORLD, they are to lead us TO “eternal life”. That LIFE is IN THE SON for those who BELIEVE. This has nothing to do with what happens after we physically die. IMHO We either KNOW GOD and abide IN LIFE or we don’t and we are DEAD, having NO LIFE in us.

    Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

    angelmom
     
  10. Hidden Manna

    Hidden Manna Veteran

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    That is good news HisWordIsMySword, feel free to use God's word without feeling guilty. Some people around here think that another mans word is his own but it is not. God's word is God's and He gives it to us to share with other, not for our own glory and then condem others when they use it. Copy what ever you wish and use it for God's glory.

    Man I wish more people were like you :thumbsup: Maybe it is because we are on the same side, but when someone disagrees with you they go get the hatchet. I believe we all have that tendence including myself at times.:sorry:

    One other thing I noticed on this forum is that very few want sound doctrine, they would rather have it out with you in a circular debate that goes nowhere and just puffs up peoples egoes with pride when they can cut you down better than you can them.

    All done to the glory of themselves not know what they are doing to Jesus.
    :cry:

    Personally I do not even think it worthy to respond to circular reasoning, now if someone is truely open and seeking answers that is another story.
     
  11. Katmando

    Katmando Regular Member

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    Hidden,

    I love sound doctrine and would love to see you post some.

    All I am looking for is the God honest Truth.

    God bless
     
  12. Hidden Manna

    Hidden Manna Veteran

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    Well Katmando you may have yourself convinced you are a sincere seek of the truth but personally I believe you have been convinced that universalim is the truth. Seems to me you stopped listening to everything others were saying and started listing to everything the universalist were saying.

    I did that once in my life and it caused my to become a Seventh Day Adventist for 12 years, that ended 3 years ago when I found out that was not the truth. You remind me of what I went through thinking I was right.

    I do not for one minute believe you are a sincere seeker because you are mindset on universalism and by the way you have asked me questions as if you are open minded which you are not.

    You disect every word I post and then ask stupid questions that I find not worth the time to answer. To me this is an insult and find you would be a total waste of what little time I have after working 12 and 13 hour shifts.

    I would rather just go learn another song to play on my guitar or take my dog for an hour walk so please not waste my time.

    The only reason why I post at all is that I hope to find a real sincere seeker for the truth who is not totally brianwash and want to try to convince me their mindset is right.
    :sick:

    As you all may know by now I hate debating but love share what I have come to know as the truth. Now if you can convince me what I post is wrong I will recieve it and change my mindset but nothing I've seen yet has done that.

    BTW my mother is a universalist and I love her so don't any universalist think that I'm against you. I just want to share with you what I know to be truth.

    I was at one time very open to being a univeralist myself without being mindset either way mainly because of some people I got along with were, but things just did not add up when I looked at all the things debated between the pro's and con's.
     
  13. Hidden Manna

    Hidden Manna Veteran

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    Don't expect us all to believe you, just show us the fruit of it. like I said I believe you are already mindset into believing universalism doctrine. The way you responded to my postings has me convinced of that, but then most unversalist will disagree which I expect them to. It is human carnal nature and just because people thing they are spiritual does not mean they are.

    I do have a few questions though if you care to answer.

    If love never fails as universalist say, does that mean God also loves Satan and will save Him along with those angel who fell with him.

    Do you believe that what is the refiner's fire for the believe is hell fire for the non-believe.

    After the fire completes what it has to do is everything restored back to ways things were before Satan fell and Adam sinned.

    Answer according to universalism belief please.
     
  14. Soul Searcher

    Soul Searcher The kingdom is within

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    Could someone direct me to the scriptures posted that actually say not all are saved, so far I can not seem to locate any in this thread.
     
  15. Katmando

    Katmando Regular Member

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    Hidden,

    Everyone that I now that has come to the Truth that Jesus will succeed in what he came here to do was once blinded to that Truth. So I do understand what is to be blind and believe I can still be blind to many things. But that is what keeps me seeking for the Truth. I have not stopped listening to others. That is why I am here to have a discussion with others. I want to see both sides. Perhaps I missed something that I have never seen before and I have to say when I was first givrn the eyes to see the the Truth that Christ will save all I fought for a long time and I read many other sides and one of those just happened to be much of your cut and pastes. This is old news, hidden. Nothing you have posted does a good job in refuting the Truth.

    Yes we must all go through the desert. It is journey that God has planned.

    Well then what you believe is wrong. Just because I believe in something does not negate the fact that I seek the Truth. I believe I will be seeking the Truth till the day I die.

    Dissect?? It is called having a discussion. This is a forum where we discuss things. Would rather me cut and paste some article that I have read that refutes your cut and paste. What will that gain? It seems to me it is you that is not looking to have a discussion. You just want others to read some articles that you found on the Internet somewhere that you seem to believe to be the God's word. Some of which I have already read and believe are Wrong.

    This is fine by me I would rather not re-read articles I have read years ago. But if you want to have an actual discussion by all means please come back and lets discuss. And please come back with those Scriptures.


    Are you calling me brainwashed? Why is that? because I actually believe something to be True?

    Debating can have a broad meaning. When I think of debating I think of two (or more) coming together to prove the other side is right and the other is wrong. In that since I too do not care for debating as that atmosphere will hardly ever come out good. But I think we can come together and share with each other what we believe to be true. By discussing things together.

    When I came to a thread labeled "Scriptures that say not all are saved" I was really hoping to see some and not some article I already read. Don't get me wrong I completely understand with cutting and pasting but only to a point. I for one am terrible at getting my point acrossed and have from time to time used others in order to help explain something that I am trying to say and I have seen others post articles that have inspired them and they just wanted to share and I see nothing wrong with that. But you post another article which you seem to think are God's words. Then someone trys to discuss it with you and and cut and paste another article, I think we have come here to have a discussion with you not articles on the Internet. Well I hope I explained myself right as I am not against using others work to help explain something another may be struggling to do on there own.

    I do not come here to prove or defend Universalism and to be honest have no idea what all is wrapped up in Universalism. I have seen people that claim to be Universalists but still lack much Truth. Not to mention some that negate Christ all together.

    Instead of being open to being a Universalist why not just be open to the Truth. Being a Universalist (or anything for that manner) because "of some people I got along with were" is just plain disastrous.

    I let God be true, but every man a liar so if you want to start posting that scripture please do I would love to discuss it with you.

    God Bless
     
  16. Hidden Manna

    Hidden Manna Veteran

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    Now if you looking for exact wording "not all are saved" you may not find it, but other words what the same meanings are as I have posted.
     
  17. Katmando

    Katmando Regular Member

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    Trust me I do not expect that. I totally agree with just show the fruit. That is why I would like to see your fruit not Matt Slicks.

    Have you already learned another song to play on your guitar or taken your dog for an hour walk? Perhaps you have time now to post those scripture that say not all are saved.

    Never mind the Universalist, do you believe Love fails?

    (Mat 5:44 KJVR) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

    I do not think Christ is a hypocrite. He would not tell us to love our enemies if he did not.

    I am not sure what it is you are trying to ask. I do not think it will be the same for the believers as the non-believers it seems to me the it will be harsher for the non-believers but that will be for God to decide.

    Satan fell? Fell from what? Please give the scriptures on what you trying to say.

    (Joh 8:44 KJVR) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    There will come a time where it will be much greater than the time back before Adam sinned. Christ will reign until he has put all enemies under his feet.

    (1Co 15:25 KJVR) For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

    If you are looking for me to answers it a certain way perhaps you are not really interested in what I have to say.

    God Bless
     
  18. Katmando

    Katmando Regular Member

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    Do you want to discuss those scriptures?


    God Bless
     
  19. Hidden Manna

    Hidden Manna Veteran

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    I may have been wrong about you not being a sincere seeker, I hope I am.

    My posts maybe old news to you but others may enjoy it or debate it amonst yourselves. As for myself I try to aviod debating mainly because of very little time and eye strain migraines. I got only one eye to read with through progressive lenses which only give a quarter of the lense to read with.

    To say God plan our journey and then we go though it and have no choice do not make sense and if it were so then all the problems in the world are God's fault and all of this is just a big game God is playing with our lives. God would not be love then, when you think of people being torchered and killed by evil men.

    Feel free to post some other stuff from others if it may help your case, but just because something here is something you have read before gives you no excuse to make others who do it look bad. That is not love.

    God Bless
     
  20. Katmando

    Katmando Regular Member

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    And I pray that my fruit will show and you can see that I am sincere and seek only the Truth.


    Not only is it old to me but I do not think it does a very good job refuting the Truth.

    I am sorry to here about your eye strains and Migraines. These are things we will not be dealing with when Christ has but all enemies under his feet. But these thorns in the side keep us humble and there is a reason for them. My God give you the strength to endure your migraines.

    God has a plan and that plan is right on schedule it is what God has decided for us. It is so we can learn righteousness. God is not on plan B trying desperately to fix things.

    If I started posting stuff from other it would just flood the thread and would just get ignored any way. No one likes drawn out posts.

    I tried to show where I thought the OP was wrong but it seems you are not up for having that discussion. Feel free to respond to this post. I know you may feel it is not worth your time but if you change your mind I am willing to have that discussion. Basically we ne to understand what are we saved from and when are we saved. What is the broadway and what is the narrow? What is destruction? What is life?


    God Bless
     
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