Scriptures that say not all are saved

[silentreader]

Nothing will violate God's nature. Nothing can make God's Word a lie; it is devine. He already saved them.

Luke 3: 6 (amp) And all mankind shall see (behold and [a]understand and at last acknowledge) the salvation of God
(the deliverance from eternal death decreed by God).

I know nothing can make God's word a lie. it supports my argument.

there is no translation that includes the word acknowledge or acceptance. it just states that all will be given a chance to see the salvation of God. they still must choose it through asking Christ to save them. what translation leads you to believe otherwise?

 

[silentreader]

Originally Posted by Pneuma3
Romans 3:3
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

We also have the sure word that every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father.

Right, so is God faithful?
He sent His son into the world for the express salvation of the whole world and as He is faithful He will accomplish exactly that. Your unbelief does not make His faithfulness of non effect.

Right again, Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, some in this life others in the ages to come, but all will bow and confess Jesus Christ is Lord and this to the Glory of the Father.

God never promised all would be saved. His faithfulness is seen in the fact that all have an option to be saved through Christ. The promise was for this lifetime, there is no supporting text that allows people to deny Christ in this lifetime and 'get it' in the afterlife. i believe in God's promises as written, not as re-interpreted to deny Christ's sacrifice. You misintepret Phil 2:9-10. the text is not meant to be used as a criteria for salvation as you propose. it is used to proclaim that all will know the Lordship of Christ over all things. in essence, to profess faith in God is to profess faith in Christ.

Now we know that no man can say Jesus Christ is Lord except by the Holy Ghost 1co.12:3 and that confession is made unto salvation Ro.10:10.

So when every knee bows and tongue confesses Jesus Christ is Lord that confession is made unto salvation.

1 Co 12:3 doesn't support your assertion. it is just stating a person saying anything in the 'Spirit of God' must not curse Christ. And that anyone saying Jesus is Lord must be filled with the Holy Spirit. There is no way this can be used to support the claim that denying Christ in this lifetime is OK.

Originally Posted by Pneuma3
care to answer this question.

God is Love, By way of Love God send His son into the world to save it, and Love never fails.

So explain why you beleive love to have failed to save the whole world.


.

Silent, you really need to think these things through.
So you’re saying Love fails because God gave us free will.
Does that not contradict the scriptures?, as we are expressly told love never fails.
Not only are you asserting Love fails because of free will, you are placing the blame for love failing squarely on Gods shoulders for giving us free will.
Thus blaming God for not saving the whole world.
You have taken the sovereignty for mans salvation out of Gods hands and placed salvation squarely on the free will of man.
You have taken the clay out of the potters hand to mold as He sees fit.

God's love doesn't fail because some are not saved. It is upheld because through Love, He denies entrance into heaven for those who are unholy. Unholiness is gained through denial of Christ. if God where to allow those who deny Christ into heaven, He would not be love.

Speaking of the salvation of all men Paul states.

Romans 8:20
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

So what do you do with free will here?
Did God subject all of creation to vanity against their will then leave it up to man’s free will to save themselves?

Did God give man free will so that man can be eternally tormented or annihilated?

What kind of Father places in the hands of a child the means by which he destroys himself.

Yet is this not what you believe God has done by giving man a free will.

Love NEVER fails bro/sis, and it was by Love and through Love that God sent His son into the world for its salvation, and it is because Love NEVER fails we are assured that the salvation of the world is surely to come to pass.

What greater testimony can God give man then Love NEVER fails.

Romans 8:20 does not mean what you say it does. Adam made the choice which doomed all men to frustration. God did not leave us without hope and He did not leave us with only free will to redeem ourelves as you claim. Hope == John 3:16.

 

[silentreader]

I am going to address this if you do not mind. For those who are dying in their deathbed, they have no time to repent in this life. They are held responsible for their sins and like all who do not change their mind (repent), will suffer loss. Yet, all mankind will be raised from the dead which means that they will alive again and this is when they will come to realization of who their true Lord and Savior is, they would be put to shame for their shameful ways. Because they are raised from the dead along with the righteous, they are set free from their body of death and made alive unto Christ and His wonderful knowledge.

John 5:25
I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

He is not speaking of the physically dead but the spiritually dead. Before accepting Christ we are all spiritually dead. Jesus is referring to those who had not heard the Gospel. Continuing in the chapter, John 5:28-29 refers to the judgement of the previously physically dead.

1 Timothy 2:3-5
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

For some, this is in the resurrection of the dead.

Just because Jesus is the ransom for all men (meaning He takes all sin upon Himself perfectly) does not mean all men will choose to receive Him. The whole Bible shows us that man must choose to follow God in order to be saved. Your attempt to remove choice is in error. The second part you underlined just refers to the fact that Christ came exactly when God wanted Him to. it in no way referes to the time when people make a choice to accept Christ. the event happened once not multiple times. I quote: "the man[a] Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time". there is no way you can extend this testimony event to time in the afterlife for those who deny Christ.

Philippians 2:9-11
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I already rebutted this in an earlier post.

Romans 10:10b
...it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

not relevant since there is no option for believe to confess after death.

Isaiah 45:23-24
By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear allegiance. They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone are righteousness and strength.' " All who have raged against him will come to him and be put to shame.

this does not mean all will accept God. it is stating that God has authority over all and that He alone is righteousness and strength. The second part you underline fortifies my point that all will be judged by God but not that all will accept Christ in this life. you have not shown anything here to support your claim. i don't say this will happiness but with hope that you will see the errors of your ways. if you want we can start a thread using verses to show universalism to be false. then you and i could switch roles and see what happens.

regards

 

[silentreader]

That is why Jesus was sent, He took upon Himself the sins of the world in order that it would not violate His nature. Jesus is an advocate, mediator, propitiation, sacrifice, etc.

John 3:17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Therefore, because it would violate His Nature no not allow the unholy to approach Him, He made them Holy through His Son justifying them while they were still sinners.

Romans 5:6-8
Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

Craig

Craig,

None of the verses you quoted say that people get a second chance after this life. How can you infer otherwise?

regards

 

[StudentoftheWord]

None of the verses you quoted say that people get a second chance after this life. How can you infer otherwise?

That is because Salvation is assured to all mankind, it is a gift. It is outside your control. A sick man cannot will himself healed. A lame man cannot will himself new legs. Salvation is healing and Jesus healed the sick even if they did not chose it or ask for it. In the same way, those who do not believe are sick as well, but even though they do not chose to be healed, doesn't mean they won't be healed. Let us be honest, would a sick man complain that he is now well again even if he didn't chose it? Some chose and were healed by their faith, while other did not choose and were healed by Him. It isn't a black and white world.

The rewards that accompany salvation are not guarunteed. Those who do not live repentance while in this life, face judgment and that which survives is reward while that which is destroyed is considered loss. You don't get a second chance to produce a harvest which recieves the blessing.

It is the resurrection of the dead. All will be raised, both those called righteous and those called wicked. This righteous to AIONIOS ZOE (reign with Christ), and the wicked to AIONIOS KOLASIS (corrective punishment).

We are dealing with some different propositional conclusions which means we need to narrow our conversation.

He is not speaking of the physically dead but the spiritually dead. Before accepting Christ we are all spiritually dead. Jesus is referring to those who had not heard the Gospel. Continuing in the chapter, John 5:28-29 refers to the judgement of the previously physically dead.

That is a your presupposition, you say it as if it was fact when He is talking about what was to come, for all the dead not just those who were previously dead. John 5:28-29 is talking about the resurrection of dead and it was and is and is to come. The dead will hear his voice and raise from the dead.

Just because Jesus is the ransom for all men (meaning He takes all sin upon Himself perfectly) does not mean all men will choose to receive Him. The whole Bible shows us that man must choose to follow God in order to be saved. Your attempt to remove choice is in error. The second part you underlined just refers to the fact that Christ came exactly when God wanted Him to. it in no way referes to the time when people make a choice to accept Christ. the event happened once not multiple times. I quote: "the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time". there is no way you can extend this testimony event to time in the afterlife for those who deny Christ.

First, you still presuppose that His gifts and callings are revocable and not irrevocable as Scripture states. Second, all men does not mean those who choose to recieve Him. That is another presupposition you hold as fact but nowhere is it found in them. You infer this from your presuppositional propositional argument, you do not accept what is actually being said. I don't extend this testimony event to time in the afterlife who deny Christ, Scripture already states that this testimoney event will happen in the resurrection of the dead, of both the righteous and the wicked.

Acts 24:15 I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Why is it, silentreader, you do not have that same 'hope'?

Your rebuttles use an already presupposed lense of dogma and demonination rather than what it says. When discussing hermeneutics, is that you must strip away all presupposition and take Scripture as a whole and not to what you think it must fit, in order to fit your doctrines. Yes, this means suspending our belief system and taking all things into consideration.

Proverbs 14:14-16
The backslider in heart will have his fill of his own ways, but a good man will be satisfied with his.
The naive believes everything, but the sensible man considers his steps.
A wise man is cautious and turns away from evil, but a fool is arrogant and careless.

Ecclesiastes 7:18
It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. The man who fears God will avoid all extremes.

So next time, consider rebuttles and what is extraneous understandings that are not inferred, as you have done accidentally. I am still here, I am not shutting you out or down. I am serious in discussing this.

Grace to you,
Craig

 

[martymonster]

You are mincing words here, though without actually saying what the difference is in your view. God is also Holiness, since none other are holy in the sight of the Lord (except through Christ). Just because I used it as an attribute does not negate the argument. from now on though I will refer to it in your manner to avoid the derailing of the argument. For the record:

God is Holiness
God is Love
God is Righteousnes

you get the point...

Here's the point for you!

Corinthians (I forget which one off the top of my head) makes it perfectly clear that what ever attribute you care to name, the greatest is love!

How does this stack up against Jesus's teachings?

Go have a read, they all revolve around love!

Why?

Because God is Love and the universe revolves around God, nay the universe is God!

 

[silentreader]

That is because Salvation is assured to all mankind, it is a gift. It is outside your control. A sick man cannot will himself healed. A lame man cannot will himself new legs. Salvation is healing and Jesus healed the sick even if they did not chose it or ask for it. In the same way, those who do not believe are sick as well, but even though they do not chose to be healed, doesn't mean they won't be healed. Let us be honest, would a sick man complain that he is now well again even if he didn't chose it? Some chose and were healed by their faith, while other did not choose and were healed by Him. It isn't a black and white world.

aren't you reversing your exegesis. you are sticking to your claim that all are saved and then quoting verses that don't support it. shouldn't it be the reverse where you look at the verses and then come to a conclusion?

That is a your presupposition, you say it as if it was fact when He is talking about what was to come, for all the dead not just those who were previously dead. John 5:28-29 is talking about the resurrection of dead and it was and is and is to come. The dead will hear his voice and raise from the dead.

no He is talking specifically about the dead before his resurrection.

First, you still presuppose that His gifts and callings are revocable and not irrevocable as Scripture states. Second, all men does not mean those who choose to recieve Him. That is another presupposition you hold as fact but nowhere is it found in them. You infer this from your presuppositional propositional argument, you do not accept what is actually being said. I don't extend this testimony event to time in the afterlife who deny Christ, Scripture already states that this testimoney event will happen in the resurrection of the dead, of both the righteous and the wicked.

Scripture clearly says a man must accept Christ's free gift. Just because a gift is free does not mean all will accept it. The Bible clearly says that one must accept Christ as His Savior to be saved. In every instance this is mentioned it is referenced to this life. Please show me one instance where it is otherwise. Here is just on e of many examples where it is clearly the present tense (this lifetime).

Acts 16:31 (English Standard Version)
31And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Your interpretation of the free gift wrongly makes you infer that it can happen after death.

Acts 24:15 I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Why is it, silentreader, you do not have that same 'hope'?

You misread this again. This refers to the living that are just and unjust. it just says that any man, regardless of how unjust, may receive salvation through Christ. Paul is speaking about people that are alive. In no way can you infer he is speaking about people already dead.

Your rebuttles use an already presupposed lense of dogma and demonination rather than what it says. When discussing hermeneutics, is that you must strip away all presupposition and take Scripture as a whole and not to what you think it must fit, in order to fit your doctrines. Yes, this means suspending our belief system and taking all things into consideration.

well we obviously disagree because i see you adding things to Scripture which just aren't there. Your interpretation requires you to add things to the text. Mine does not.

Proverbs 14:14-16
The backslider in heart will have his fill of his own ways, but a good man will be satisfied with his.
The naive believes everything, but the sensible man considers his steps.
A wise man is cautious and turns away from evil, but a fool is arrogant and careless.

nice verse, but it has nothing to do with the dead, who denied Christ in this lifetime, receiving salvation.

Ecclesiastes 7:18
It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. The man who fears God will avoid all extremes.

ditto. though i assume you thing i am somehow violating these verses.

So next time, consider rebuttles and what is extraneous understandings that are not inferred, as you have done accidentally. I am still here, I am not shutting you out or down. I am serious in discussing this.

Grace to you,
Craig

Craig, I challenge you to find one instance where I added anything to Scripture. Then maybe we can get somewhere. You preach a false Gospel of inclusionism that erases the sacrifice at the cross. it is dangerous and is warned against in Scripture. you are allowing a person to have no faith in Christ and then be saved after he is dead. there is no verse that says this is possible. your whole argument is supposition based on your concept of the justice and love of God. Unfortunately it contradicts Scripture many times.

regards

 

[silentreader]

Here's the point for you!

Corinthians (I forget which one off the top of my head) makes it perfectly clear that what ever attribute you care to name, the greatest is love!

How does this stack up against Jesus's teachings?

Go have a read, they all revolve around love!

Why?

Because God is Love and the universe revolves around God, nay the universe is God!

and your point is? The fact that God is love means he cannot abide sin in any way. His perfect justice required a perfect sacrifice (Christ). To deny that sacrifice in this life means you are going to hell. and to preach such a false gospel means you will to. and before anyone says I am judging save your breath. i would like nothing more than for you to see the error of yoru ways and repent. i know you don't like the concept of hell as laid out in the Bible but it is real and the path is cleasrly defined.

 

[Soul Searcher]

and your point is? The fact that God is love means he cannot abide sin in any way.

You've got to be kidding

So let's see here when Jesus said that we should love one another what he really meant was that we should be completely intorerant of sin. Yet this is not what Jesus taught. He said we should forgive others there sins repeatedly as needed. That we should turn the other cheek and not return evil for evil. Quite the opposite of what you have indicated.

His perfect justice required a perfect sacrifice (Christ).

Perfect justice is explained by Jesus in the sermon on the mount. Basically saying that if you show mercy to others who will receive mercy, if you forgive others you will be forgiven, if you do not forgive others you will not be forgiven. If you judge you will be judged by the judgment you have used in judging others and the measure you meet will be measured unto you. These things and more bring to light the meaning and consequence of the do unto others rule and the reap what you sow comment.

To deny that sacrifice in this life means you are going to hell. and to preach such a false gospel means you will to.

FYI Gospel means "Good News" all I see from you are threats under the guise of Gospel. If what you say is true I would suggest that you start preaching the real Gospel instead of your turn or burn hell fire threats.

and before anyone says I am judging save your breath. i would like nothing more than for you to see the error of yoru ways and repent. i know you don't like the concept of hell as laid out in the Bible but it is real and the path is cleasrly defined.

No hell as it appears in the bible is nothing like you proclaim it to be.

One example, Hell shall give up the dead that are in it then hell [now empty] shall be cast into the lake of fire. This verse alone proves that your concept of "hell" as it appears in the bible is incorrect.

You also have said that hell is the seperation from God, then you have said that hell is the presence of Gods wrath without his love, even though the bible tells us that God is love. I guess you think that somehow God is divided against himself in this fictional account of hell but that is absurd.

 

[StudentoftheWord]

Your interpretation of the free gift wrongly makes you infer that it can happen after death.

It isn't my interpretation. Go look up the word gift in a dictionary sometime. The gift of salvation is not a tangeble gift that one can give up, it is like a gift along the way of ability and talent. God's gifts and calling are still irrevocble once they are given, that means He doesn't take them back.

He is talking specifically about the dead before his resurrection.

Where do you get he is saying that? He is talking about the DEAD, Paul even said to preach the resurrection of the dead has already happened is wrong.

2 Timothy 2:18
who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.

If the resurrection of the dead has already taken place, wandering from the truth, destroying the faith of some. Then the dead Jesus was referring means the dead still have not raised. That means Jesus was talking about all the dead.

You misread this again. This refers to the living that are just and unjust. it just says that any man, regardless of how unjust, may receive salvation through Christ. Paul is speaking about people that are alive. In no way can you infer he is speaking about people already dead.

I didn't miss read a thing silentrider. He didn't say the resurrection of the righteous and wicked ONLY if they believe. His hope is solely in the resurrection of the dead of both the righteous and the wicked. Do you read more than what is presented, you again infer a presupposition to disagree without proving it. Which means you remain in error, even if you are correct. Have you ever done a debate before?

Craig, I challenge you to find one instance where I added anything to Scripture. Then maybe we can get somewhere. You preach a false Gospel of inclusionism that erases the sacrifice at the cross. it is dangerous and is warned against in Scripture. you are allowing a person to have no faith in Christ and then be saved after he is dead. there is no verse that says this is possible. your whole argument is supposition based on your concept of the justice and love of God. Unfortunately it contradicts Scripture many times.

You have not brought up one Scripture that contridicts me silentreader. I have given you plenty which you cannot explain. So far, we have only have your opinions lacking platform and support. A prudent man stores up knowledge, a fool shows his folly. Show me the knowledge.

 

[martymonster]

and your point is? The fact that God is love means he cannot abide sin in any way. His perfect justice required a perfect sacrifice (Christ). To deny that sacrifice in this life means you are going to hell. and to preach such a false gospel means you will to. and before anyone says I am judging save your breath. i would like nothing more than for you to see the error of yoru ways and repent. i know you don't like the concept of hell as laid out in the Bible but it is real and the path is cleasrly defined.

Surely you jest?

God said that He prefers mercy over sacrifice!
so how do explain that one then?

And let me make this abundantly clear.
Myself and all the others who you are debating this subject with believed as you do once!
but We were woken up to the aroma of God's sweet truth.

 

[Pneuma3]

Originally Posted by Pneuma3 http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=31766324#post31766324
Originally Posted by Pneuma3
Romans 3:3
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

We also have the sure word that every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father.

Right, so is God faithful?
He sent His son into the world for the express salvation of the whole world and as He is faithful He will accomplish exactly that. Your unbelief does not make His faithfulness of non effect.

Right again, Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, some in this life others in the ages to come, but all will bow and confess Jesus Christ is Lord and this to the Glory of the Father.

God never promised all would be saved. His faithfulness is seen in the fact that all have an option to be saved through Christ. The promise was for this lifetime, there is no supporting text that allows people to deny Christ in this lifetime and 'get it' in the afterlife. i believe in God's promises as written, not as re-interpreted to deny Christ's sacrifice. You misintepret Phil 2:9-10. the text is not meant to be used as a criteria for salvation as you propose. it is used to proclaim that all will know the Lordship of Christ over all things. in essence, to profess faith in God is to profess faith in Christ.

If only in this life we have hope in Christ we are of all men most miserable.
29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
Your understanding of Phil.2:9-10 is in error, it is a quote from
Isaiah 45:21-23
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Which is also spoken of here
Romans 14:11
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Philippians 2:9-11
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

It most assuredly is speaking of ALL things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pneuma3 http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=31766324#post31766324
Originally Posted by Pneuma3
care to answer this question.

God is Love, By way of Love God send His son into the world to save it, and Love never fails.

So explain why you beleive love to have failed to save the whole world.


.

Silent, you really need to think these things through.
So you’re saying Love fails because God gave us free will.
Does that not contradict the scriptures?, as we are expressly told love never fails.
Not only are you asserting Love fails because of free will, you are placing the blame for love failing squarely on Gods shoulders for giving us free will.
Thus blaming God for not saving the whole world.
You have taken the sovereignty for mans salvation out of Gods hands and placed salvation squarely on the free will of man.
You have taken the clay out of the potters hand to mold as He sees fit.

God's love doesn't fail because some are not saved. It is upheld because through Love, He denies entrance into heaven for those who are unholy. Unholiness is gained through denial of Christ. if God where to allow those who deny Christ into heaven, He would not be love.

The point being is all will be saved and gain entrance, for after all is said and done we read the spirit and the bride say come and whosoever will may come.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pneuma3 http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=31766324#post31766324
Speaking of the salvation of all men Paul states.

Romans 8:20
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

So what do you do with free will here?
Did God subject all of creation to vanity against their will then leave it up to man’s free will to save themselves?

Did God give man free will so that man can be eternally tormented or annihilated?

What kind of Father places in the hands of a child the means by which he destroys himself.

Yet is this not what you believe God has done by giving man a free will.

Love NEVER fails bro/sis, and it was by Love and through Love that God sent His son into the world for its salvation, and it is because Love NEVER fails we are assured that the salvation of the world is surely to come to pass.

What greater testimony can God give man then Love NEVER fails.

Romans 8:20 does not mean what you say it does. Adam made the choice which doomed all men to frustration. God did not leave us without hope and He did not leave us with only free will to redeem ourelves as you claim. Hope == John 3:16.

You mean Ro.8:20 does not mean what I said it means because you cannot equate it to you understanding of eternal torment or annihilation. Your understanding does not take away the fact that God subject the whole creation to vanity NOT willingly in order that the whole of creation can be set at liberty by mercy and grace which is in God providence alone.

Care to inlighten us what Ro. 8:20 means to you?

 

[StudentoftheWord]

The fact that God is love means he cannot abide sin in any way. His perfect justice required a perfect sacrifice (Christ). To deny that sacrifice in this life means you are going to hell.

1. The fact that God is love means he cannot abide sin in any way.

Agreed.

2. His perfect justice required a perfect sacrifice (Christ).

Agreed.

3. To deny that sacrifice in this life means you are going to hell.

Jesus fulfilled the Law and the prophets (Genesis to Malachi) and the Law and the prophets (Genesis to Malachi) are only shadows of what is present in Christ Jesus. As such, any exception in the Law and the prophets (Genesis to Malachi) of the sacrifice covering a nation or a person apart from accepting the sacrifice (in your opinion 'rejecting') will prove you wrong.

Are you ready to be proven wrong?

We only need one exception to the rule to accept the sacrifice before it can apply to someone.

You ready to admit you are wrong?

 

[silentreader]

You've got to be kidding

So let's see here when Jesus said that we should love one another what he really meant was that we should be completely intorerant of sin. Yet this is not what Jesus taught. He said we should forgive others there sins repeatedly as needed. That we should turn the other cheek and not return evil for evil. Quite the opposite of what you have indicated.

you are confusing what I said. yes we are to forgive each other but we are not to allow a brother to continue to live in sin. Which is exactly what denying Christ for one's whole life is. paul specifically addresses living in sin, unrepentent. See Galatians 2:11-21.

"11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
15"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. 17"If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

This is just once instance, there are many others.

Perfect justice is explained by Jesus in the sermon on the mount. Basically saying that if you show mercy to others who will receive mercy, if you forgive others you will be forgiven, if you do not forgive others you will not be forgiven. If you judge you will be judged by the judgment you have used in judging others and the measure you meet will be measured unto you. These things and more bring to light the meaning and consequence of the do unto others rule and the reap what you sow comment.

FYI Gospel means "Good News" all I see from you are threats under the guise of Gospel. If what you say is true I would suggest that you start preaching the real Gospel instead of your turn or burn hell fire threats.

Again you start with the judgement issue of yours. I don't judge you, i am just pointing out that your exegesis is severely lacking and contradicts the Gospel. paul specifically warns of false gospels and what you are saying is an example of one of them. Why not try to explain how your interpretation meshes with what Paul says above?

No hell as it appears in the bible is nothing like you proclaim it to be.

i don't proclaim anything, the Bible is quite clear.

One example, Hell shall give up the dead that are in it then hell [now empty] shall be cast into the lake of fire. This verse alone proves that your concept of "hell" as it appears in the bible is incorrect.

you make it quite hard to make your argument when you can't find the verses. if you find it i will take a look at it.

You also have said that hell is the seperation from God, then you have said that hell is the presence of Gods wrath without his love, even though the bible tells us that God is love. I guess you think that somehow God is divided against himself in this fictional account of hell but that is absurd.

Are you saying God cannot put His perfect wrath in one place and the Word in another? Hmmm, seems like you are putting God into a tiny little box created by your mind. The next thing you will be telling me, ala Muslims, is that God can't be both the Father and the Son at the same time...

 

[silentreader]

1. The fact that God is love means he cannot abide sin in any way.

Agreed.

2. His perfect justice required a perfect sacrifice (Christ).

Agreed.

3. To deny that sacrifice in this life means you are going to hell.

Jesus fulfilled the Law and the prophets (Genesis to Malachi) and the Law and the prophets (Genesis to Malachi) are only shadows of what is present in Christ Jesus. As such, any exception in the Law and the prophets (Genesis to Malachi) of the sacrifice covering a nation or a person apart from accepting the sacrifice (in your opinion 'rejecting') will prove you wrong.

Are you ready to be proven wrong?

We only need one exception to the rule to accept the sacrifice before it can apply to someone.

You ready to admit you are wrong?

admit i am wrong? hardly. you continue to make the mistake of saying that denying Christ's sacrifice still allows for salvation. I have shown conclusively how you add things into Scripture to make them fit your point of view. I have had to do none of that.

show me your one exception.

 

[silentreader]

It most assuredly is speaking of ALL things.

all you did is repackage the same stuff and say the same thing. all the verses you quoted do not deal with the criteria for salvation they refer to the Lordship of God/Christ in all things. Satan knows Jesus is the Christ but that doesn't mean he is saved. You are confusing knowledge with acceptance. they are two vastly different concepts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pneuma3
Originally Posted by Pneuma3
care to answer this question.

God is Love, By way of Love God send His son into the world to save it, and Love never fails.

So explain why you beleive love to have failed to save the whole world.

Are you trying to quote John 4:16? Please clarify beofe i answer since I cannot be sure of the verse and translation you are quoting.

The point being is all will be saved and gain entrance, for after all is said and done we read the spirit and the bride say come and whosoever will may come.

huh? is this your thought or a mistranslated verse?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pneuma3
Speaking of the salvation of all men Paul states.

Romans 8:20
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

So what do you do with free will here?
Did God subject all of creation to vanity against their will then leave it up to man’s free will to save themselves?

Did God give man free will so that man can be eternally tormented or annihilated?

What kind of Father places in the hands of a child the means by which he destroys himself.

Yet is this not what you believe God has done by giving man a free will.

Love NEVER fails bro/sis, and it was by Love and through Love that God sent His son into the world for its salvation, and it is because Love NEVER fails we are assured that the salvation of the world is surely to come to pass.

What greater testimony can God give man then Love NEVER fails.



You mean Ro.8:20 does not mean what I said it means because you cannot equate it to you understanding of eternal torment or annihilation. Your understanding does not take away the fact that God subject the whole creation to vanity NOT willingly in order that the whole of creation can be set at liberty by mercy and grace which is in God providence alone.

Care to inlighten us what Ro. 8:20 means to you?[/quote]

I already did in a previous post (hint: Adam did the subjecting). God cannot be love and purposely put his creation into an unwillingly frustrating situation. you have crossed dangerously close into Mormon territory there. most assuredly blasphemy.

 

[silentreader]

Surely you jest?

God said that He prefers mercy over sacrifice!
so how do explain that one then?

And let me make this abundantly clear.
Myself and all the others who you are debating this subject with believed as you do once!
but We were woken up to the aroma of God's sweet truth.

do you realize that the 'mercy over sacrifice' verse was meant to illustrate to the pharisees that God does not want vain sacrifices? This does not apply to Christ, I am quite surprised you dared propose such a thing. Christ's sacrifice was perfect and hence there was no room for vanity in said sacrifice.

 

[Soul Searcher]

you are confusing what I said. yes we are to forgive each other but we are not to allow a brother to continue to live in sin. Which is exactly what denying Christ for one's whole life is. paul specifically addresses living in sin, unrepentent. See Galatians 2:11-21.

No I am not confusing what you said. It is not your place nor our place to "not allow a brother to live in sin" It is not for us to judge our brother in this manner.

Again you start with the judgement issue of yours. I don't judge you, i am just pointing out that your exegesis is severely lacking and contradicts the Gospel. paul specifically warns of false gospels and what you are saying is an example of one of them. Why not try to explain how your interpretation meshes with what Paul says above?

You mentioned justice, I showed you what perfect justice means, and it is not an issue of mine you are the one who came in here basically saying that we and anyone else who does not believe as you do are not Christains.

i don't proclaim anything, the Bible is quite clear.

Yes you do, and the bible does not say what you proclaim about Gods wrath being seperate from his love and the two existing in two different places.

you make it quite hard to make your argument when you can't find the verses. if you find it i will take a look at it.

I was giving you the benefit of a doubt thinking that you might know some scripture but so far you don't seem to recognize it .. The scripture that says hell will give up it's dead is in revelation where it speaks af the judgement of every man. And no it isn't that I can't find it I just sometimes perfer to write in my own words wihtout giving lots of quotes which extend the length of the post. The text is there plain to see in the kjv.

Are you saying God cannot put His perfect wrath in one place and the Word in another? Hmmm, seems like you are putting God into a tiny little box created by your mind.

Nonsense.. You indicate that Gods love and his wrath are divided and effectively his wrath is doing what he is not willing to do, hence you indicate that God is divided against himself and as Jesus said a kingdom divided against itself can not stand. Aside fromt hat there is no scripture to infer from what you are asserting. It's funny how I can give you a scripture reference that in the bible says word for word what I have said and you claim I miss-interpretat it whereas you make comments that can not be found in scripture and act as though they actually appear there.

 

[Pneuma3]

Originally Posted by Pneuma3
The point being is all will be saved and gain entrance, for after all is said and done we read the spirit and the bride say come and whosoever will may come.

huh? is this your thought or a mistranslated verse?

read it for yourself. Rev.22:17

 

[Pneuma3]

I already did in a previous post (hint: Adam did the subjecting). God cannot be love and purposely put his creation into an unwillingly frustrating situation. you have crossed dangerously close into Mormon territory there. most assuredly blasphemy.

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

The same one who subjected to vanity is the same one who we hope in.

If you hope is in Adam your hope is in vanity itself.