Scriptures that say not all are saved

[Evergreen48]

Evergreen by your belief that not all will be saved but some annihilated is to denying Christ faithfulness to save all the lost.

Just a little note about 'faithfulness'.
1 John 1:9. "IFwe confess our sins, he [God] is faithful [to His Son, Jesus Christ] and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Does it not follow that if a person goes through their entire life sinning and committing awful and grievous sins, never acknowledging them before God, nor seeking forgiveness of them, that if in the end God forgave them anyway and cleansed them from their unrighteousness, that He would not be justified in doing so, and in doing so would be unfaithful to His Son Jesus Christ?

I believe the blood of Christ is precious and valuable unto the Father and that He will not allow one drop of it to be wasted, or shed in vain. And seeing that Christ himself taught us not to cast our pearls before swine, how likely is it that the Father will allow it to be wasted on the vile and unrepentant?

He came to seek and to save the lost, yet to believe in annihilation or eternal torment is the same as saying He did not save the lost. What it teaches is that those who needed Him the most (the lost) He gives up on.

Someone in this thread has already in effect mentioned about taking one verse and building an entire doctrine on it. And I can't help but think how true this is in the case where 'He came to seek and to save the lost' verse is being used to forward the Universalist's doctrine. For if we read the entire set of passages which contains this particular verse, we see that Jesus spoke this to those of His own kinsmen, the Jews, or the wayward fallen house of Israel.
Luke 19: 1. "And Jesus entered and passed through Jericho.
2. And, behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich.
3. And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.
4. And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way.
5. And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.
6. And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.
7. And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.
8. And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
10. *For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."

*The publican originally and strictly a member of a company which bought from the Roman government the right to collect taxes in a given territory; also one of the company's agents. Because of their harsh methods, (rapine, extortion, etc.) publicans were detested by the people. About 45 B.C. Julius Caesar abolished their right to operate in Judea. The publicans who are mentioned in the 'gospels' were a small group of tax gatherers who were not subject to these notorious companies, but to the ethnarch of Judea. But they were considered 'sinners' and were despised and rejected of the rest of the Jews all the same. Both Matthew and Zacchaeus were publicans, and prime examples of the Lord's seeking out and saving; bringing the 'lost sheep' of Israel back into the 'fold'.

Love never fails and it was because of love God sent His son into the world in order to save the whole world.

It is never God's love which fails. But guess whose love does fail!

If any remain lost Jesus was not faithful to that which He was sent to do. That would mean He missed the mark of His calling and we know that to miss the mark is sin.

If any remain lost it is because of their own stubborn refusal and failure to accept and to grasp the life line that was provided at so great a price.

John 3: 14. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15. That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believethin him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
1John 5:11. "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

My statement above is not self righteous Evergreen, for I don’t believe any man is righteous save they be in Christ. And then it is not our righteousness but His as He is our righteousness.

Also if you have read this whole thread you would have seen that the statement above was in reply to silents claim that those who believe all men will be saved lack faith. I was just pointing out to silent the error of that assertion, and that those who believe in eternal torment or annihilation deny the faithfulness of Jesus Christ.

That is an excuse, Pneuma. I went back through the thread to see if I had missed something and I never found one place where silent claims that those who believe all men will be saved lack faith. I see where he said that someone's interpretation lacked faith, but I did not find where anyone claimed that those who believe all men will be saved, lacked faith.

 

[Evergreen48]

He is either faithful to do what He came to do, the salvation of the whole world, or He is not. The belief in eternal torment or annihilation is simply a belief that He is not faithful. You can twist it all around as much as you like but if you don’t believe Jesus will do what He came to do, the salvation of the whole world, you do not believe in His faithfulness.

I am not twisting things all around because I believe that most likely not all will be resurrected.
" . . . . . Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."
" . . . . For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
. . . . . . Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
I believe that Jesus was sent to be the Saviour of the whole world. And inasmuch as He has provided the means for that salvation to everyone, He has accomplished what He came to do. But providing a life line to a drowning person does not save the person. It accomplishes nothing for the person who is drowning until and unless they take hold of it and use it for their means of salvation.
Just as the animal sacrifice of old which was only a shadow of the ultimate sacrifice (Christ) covered only those of the physical or literal house of Israel which was a type or a shadow of the spiritual house of Israel, so then does the ultimate sacrifice (Christ) cover only those of the spiritual house of Israel. I believe that all in all the Bible teaches that all are welcome to enter into His house to eat and drink at his banquet table, but obviously not all accept this invitation. But I also believe that God is merciful and kind, and would not have any purpose, nor derive any pleasure from torturing anyone for eternity. And so, seeing that we have testimony from learned and wise men of old to the effect that:
Psalms 1:1. "Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2. But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4. The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5. Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6. For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish."
Job 24:19. "Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave those which have sinned.
20. The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree." . . . . . . . .
This is what causes me to believe that some shall never be resurrected from the dust to which they have returned.

Acts 17:28

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poits have said, For we are also his offspring.
Paul also say it here concerning who's faith we live by.
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20I am crucifiedwith Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me,, and gave himself for me.

None of the scriptures mentioned here say: "We live and move and have our being because of theFAITH of the Son of God." which you quoted as though it was scripture. As a matter of fact you are using Galations 2:16-20 completely out of its context. For this is another one of the apostle Paul's discourses which pertains to the works of the Mosaic law versus grace. It does not pertain in any way to the subject at hand as far as I am concerned, or you either, for that matter, unless you are a converted Jew who previously was under the impression that obedience to the old covenant law of Moses was what saved you. Are you?

But Jesus did not come to save those that

already have a bus pass, He came to save those that don’t.

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Annihilation or eternal torment teaches the opposite of the above scripture.

Nothing was said about any bus passes. The remark was to the effect that because the bus stops at a bus stop does not mean that all the people who are standing there at the stop get on that bus. Meaning: The transportation is furnished to anyone who wants the ride, but not everyone wants to ride and boards the bus.

I agree, anyone’s faith is but the effect of the salvation already given in Christ. And we are told that every man is dealt a measure of faith.

The 'measure of faith' was dealt to every man within the group of people that the apostle Paul was referring to, and speaking to at the time of the writing of the epistle.
"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." (Romans 12:3)
But granted it may be that every one may have been given a measure of faith. But we are also told that 'faith without works is dead'.

 

[Benoni]

Evergreen

There is no doubt there is Christ the head; but there is also Christ the body; being thirty, sixty one hundred fold. What does that mean to you that God’s people are going to live in a literal mansion and sing and play literal harps and witness to each other.

What I see and understand is God’s Word is hidden for many reasons. One of these reasons is the bias translators that were well meaning but have twisted God’s Word to their bias or understanding.

Take the Tabernacle of David in:

​

Acts 15:16​

After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:​

17 That the residue (remainder) of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.​

​

I have heard men say the Tabernacle of David was something to do with the Jews; I see it as one of the most awesome typology for God’s plan for the remainder of the heathen that God will call in his timing not yours or mine. Men are not saved by freewill; they are saved by grace; God must c all them first….

 

[FineLinen]

That's an interesting translation FineLinen, is it hard to track down at all?

Hi there M.M. You will find Jonathan's on-going work of Koine translation at the following....

-Jonathan Mitchell New Testament-

HERE

 

[Pneuma3]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pneuma3
Evergreen by your belief that not all will be saved but some annihilated is to denying Christ faithfulness to save all the lost.

Just a little note about 'faithfulness'.
1 John 1:9. "IFwe confess our sins, he [God] is faithful [to His Son, Jesus Christ] and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Does it not follow that if a person goes through their entire life sinning and committing awful and grievous sins, never acknowledging them before God, nor seeking forgiveness of them, that if in the end God forgave them anyway and cleansed them from their unrighteousness, that He would not be justified in doing so, and in doing so would be unfaithful to His Son Jesus Christ?

1 Timothy 1:12-16
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.



1 Timothy 4:9-10
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Why does Paul say he suffered reproach? Because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Paul did not trust in the living God who is the saviour of some men, or most men, or few men, his trust was in the living God who is the saviour of ALL men.

2 Timothy 2:13
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

So it matters not that you do not believe Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL men, He CANNOT deny Himself.

What is He? The saviour of ALL men, and He CANNOT deny Himself.

Romans 3:3
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

I believe the blood of Christ is precious and valuable unto the Father and that He will not allow one drop of it to be wasted, or shed in vain. And seeing that Christ himself taught us not to cast our pearls before swine, how likely is it that the Father will allow it to be wasted on the vile and unrepentant?

Evergreen He did not come to call the righteous but the sinner, His blood was shed for the vile and unrepentant. And you call that a waste of His blood!

Not one drop of His blood is wasted because He is the saviour of the whole world.

Quote:
He came to seek and to save the lost, yet to believe in annihilation or eternal torment is the same as saying He did not save the lost. What it teaches is that those who needed Him the most (the lost) He gives up on.

Someone in this thread has already in effect mentioned about taking one verse and building an entire doctrine on it. And I can't help but think how true this is in the case where 'He came to seek and to save the lost' verse is being used to forward the Universalist's doctrine. For if we read the entire set of passages which contains this particular verse, we see that Jesus spoke this to those of His own kinsmen, the Jews, or the wayward fallen house of Israel.

Those that believe all men will be saved do not base our entire doctrine on ONE verse, our entire doctrine is based on Jesus Christ and the sufficiency of His blood to save all men. And you have been here long enough to know that we use scripture upon scripture to show this.
As to taking things out of contexts which we are always accused of doing, have you never read how the apostle did this all the time? How they pulled things out of the OT to show forth the Jesus was the Christ, how they pulled Esau and Isaac out of contexts to show election. Just read the whole NT and you will see all the writers taking things out of the context they were given in to support Jesus Christ was indeed the Messiah.
This contexts thing was probably one of the reasons the Scribes and Pharisees rejected Jesus as the Messiah.
Now let’s see if you do this yourself. You used this scripture in the beginning of your post in support of God annihilating those who do not confess their sins.

1 John 1:9. "IFwe confess our sins, he [God] is faithful [to His Son, Jesus Christ] and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Who was John speaking to? Those that know not Christ or those that do?
Who was John saying must confess their sins? Those that know not Christ or those that do?
I think you get my point, for if you are using this scripture as support of annihilation then it is not those that know not Christ but those who do know Him that are annihilated.

 

[Pneuma3]

Quote:
Love never fails and it was because of love God sent His son into the world in order to save the whole world.

It is never God's love which fails. But guess whose love does fail!

Well if God by Love of the whole world sent Jesus Christ into the world by Love in order to save the whole world and the whole world is not saved then His (Gods) Love failed to bring about that which He sent it to do.

1 Timothy 2:4
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

It is Gods will for all men to be saved, yet many of Gods own people stand up and say even though it is Gods will that all be saved He cannot perform it. I have asked why and the standard answer is because of man unbelief. What! shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid.


Daniel 4:35
35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Do Gods own people not believe the scriptures anymore? Does this scripture not state that God does everything according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth, and NONE can stay his hand. Does not the potter have power over the clay in His hands?


Ephesians 1:9-11
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Can we not understand by this that God works all things after the counsel of His own will, so that in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together all things in Christ. Is not bringing all things together in Christ the mystery of His will? A mystery that is being unfolded today, yet many reject it as heresy.



Isaiah 14:24
24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:

God swore by Himself because He can swear by none greater, and we know that God cannot lie therefore surely all His purposes shall come to pass. What purpose did God have in sending His son? Was it not for the salvation of the whole world?
Therefore if the whole world is not saved does God then not become a liar?

Isaiah 46:10-11
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

God counsel shall stand and He will do all His pleasure. Why is this so hard for Christians to understand? He declared from the beginning that which shall be in the end.

Isaiah 55:10-11
10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

I really like this one. The WORD did come out from God, made in the likeness of flesh for the salvation of the whole world. And as the WORD was sent forth it will not return void but shall accomplish EVERYTHING that it was sent to do. Why do so many still believe His WORD came in vain? The salvation of the whole world was His purpose in coming so what can we say if He does not fulfill His purpose? There is only one conclusion, His WORD returned void. Believe what you will, I believe His WORD will do exactly what He came to do. Like it or not brothers and sisters Gods WORD Jesus Christ will fulfill to the fullest exactly what He came to do, THE SALVATION OF ALL.

 

[Pneuma3]

Quote:
If any remain lost Jesus was not faithful to that which He was sent to do. That would mean He missed the mark of His calling and we know that to miss the mark is sin.

If any remain lost it is because of their own stubborn refusal and failure to accept and to grasp the life line that was provided at so great a price.

Jesus never came as a life line He came as the saviour of the whole world NOT the potential saviour of the whole world.

Quote:
My statement above is not self righteous Evergreen, for I don’t believe any man is righteous save they be in Christ. And then it is not our righteousness but His as He is our righteousness.

Quote:
Also if you have read this whole thread you would have seen that the statement above was in reply to silents claim that those who believe all men will be saved lack faith. I was just pointing out to silent the error of that assertion, and that those who believe in eternal torment or annihilation deny the faithfulness of Jesus Christ.

That is an excuse, Pneuma. I went back through the thread to see if I had missed something and I never found one place where silent claims that those who believe all men will be saved lack faith. I see where he said that someone's interpretation lacked faith, but I did not find where anyone claimed that those who believe all men will be saved, lacked faith.

Well here’s silents quote, I bold the part you seem to have missed.
Speaking to one who believes all men will be saved silent says.

your interpretation only lacks the one thing: faith. The Bible clearly says one must have faith in Christ to be saved. Dying, while denying Christ, is not faith. hence no salvation. I have yet to see a universalist present an argument to the contrary. they instead try to argue about the lack of 'hell' being mentioned or that, as you did, it doesn't make sense. find me the verse that allows someone to deny Christ throughout this lifetime and find salvation.

Now it could be I misunderstood silents intent, but it seemed to me s/he was saying that s/he had yet to see one who believes all men will be saved present an argument on faith for the salvation of all men. And thus my reply. As s/he never came back to clarify what the intent was I can only assume I understood the intent of what was written.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Pneuma3
He is either faithful to do what He came to do, the salvation of the whole world, or He is not. The belief in eternal torment or annihilation is simply a belief that He is not faithful. You can twist it all around as much as you like but if you don’t believe Jesus will do what He came to do, the salvation of the whole world, you do not believe in His faithfulness.

I am not twisting things all around because I believe that most likely not all will be resurrected.
" . . . . . Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."
" . . . . For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
. . . . . . Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
I believe that Jesus was sent to be the Saviour of the whole world. And inasmuch as He has provided the means for that salvation to everyone, He has accomplished what He came to do. But providing a life line to a drowning person does not save the person.

That right providing a life line does not save a person, thus He NEVER came as a life line, but rather as SAVIOUR. He did not throw a life line to sinking man He jumped into the water with man to pull him out of the water he was drowning in.
He is NOT the potential SAVIOUR of ALL men, He IS the SAVIOUR of ALL MEN.

This is what causes me to believe that some shall never be resurrected from the dust to which they have returned.

Evergreen Here is a link to a good article by A.P.Adams on the resurrection of those that returned to dust. It’s concerning the restoring of Sodom and Gomorrah in judgment.

http://www.godstruthfortoday.org/Library/adams/021Sodom.htm

Quote:
Acts 17:28

Quote:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poits have said, For we are also his offspring.
Paul also say it here concerning who's faith we live by.
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20I am crucifiedwith Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me,, and gave himself for me.

None of the scriptures mentioned here say: "We live and move and have our being because of theFAITH of the Son of God." which you quoted as though it was scripture.

Well do you not believe it is by the faith of Jesus Christ we live and move and have our being?

If not maybe you can supply a scripture that states otherwise.

And when I quote scripture I quote it exactly as it is written.

We live and move and have our being because of theFAITH of the Son of God."

Are my thoughts on what the scriptures say, I never said or implied otherwise.

 

[Evergreen48]

1 Timothy 4:9-10

9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.

Why does Paul say he suffered reproach? Because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

The first 3 verses tell us that there were some at the time of Paul's writing this letter to Timothy, who had departed from the truth of the gospel. That these people were teaching and practicing such things as abstaining from marriage, and abstaining from eating meat, says that they perhaps had joined, or returned to some other religious group or sect which were around from late B.C. and on into the Christian era of the first century.

Among Qumran Scrolls (Dead Sea Scrolls) there is a scroll called the War of the Sons of Light against the Sons of Darkness. The Essenes, who reportedly authored this writing, considered themselves to be the 'Sons of Light' and that everybody else - Jews, gentiles, priests, plain people, were all alike, and were considered to be the 'Sons of Darkness'. These misled men believed that at some point in their near future there would be a major battle. 'The stuggle would not be just between people, or between 'good guys' and 'bad guys', but between cosmic forces, the cosmic forces of evil and the cosmic forces of good. And in this battle the angels would fight along side the 'Sons of Light', and against the 'Sons of Darkness'.' And of course they believed the battle would end in a victory for the 'Sons of Light', and that the 'Sons of Darkness', which was everyone else except themselves, would be destroyed. If the apostle was talking about these people when he said, "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth." would it not make sense that he would reiterate that the God in whom they had placed their trust was the saviour, or deliverer of all men - Jews, gentiles, priests, plain people, and not just those who thought that only they would survive this great impending battle?
Jesus, without a doubt, referring to the beliefs and teachings of some such sect whose members had separated themselves from the general populace when He said:
Matthew 5: 43. "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. (Whose teaching was this? It was certainly not God's. )
44. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45. That ye may be the children <- huios - sons ) - of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."

Paul did not trust in the living God who is the saviour of some men, or most men, or few men, his trust was in the living God who is the saviour of ALL men

Paul put his trust in the living God who is the deliverer, or saviour at one time or another during the life time of every human being that has ever lived, is living, or will live. The whole human race, whether godly or ungodly, is dependent upon God for every breath it takes.

2 Timothy 2:13

13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

So it matters not that you do not believe Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL men, He CANNOT deny Himself.

What is He? The saviour of ALL men, and He CANNOT deny Himself.

2 Timothy 2: 11. "It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12. If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13. If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."
I have to say that I have never heard 2 Timothy 2:13 interpreted or summarized the way you have done it here. It seems to me that the preceding verse (12) completely demolishes your interpretation by saying: 'if we deny him, he also will deny us'.

Romans 3:3

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

I fail to see the connection between the topic at hand and whether or not some of the Jews believed. ? ? ?

Evergreen He did not come to call the righteous but the sinner, His blood was shed for the vile and unrepentant. And you

call that a waste of His blood! Not one drop of His blood is wasted because He is the saviour of the whole world.

I agree, since all are sinners, He does call all to repentance. But if repentance is through His blood, and not all repent, and He saves them anyway, of what use was His blood

As to taking things out of contexts which we are always accused of doing, have you never read how the apostle did this all the time? How they pulled things out of the OT to show forth the Jesus was the Christ, how they pulled Esau and Isaac out of contexts to show election. Just read the whole NT and you will see all the writers taking things out of the context they were given in to support Jesus Christ was indeed the Messiah.

I do not find that the apostles took anything from the OT and used it out of its proper context. The writers of the Old Testament say "He is coming, He is coming!" The writers of the New Testament say, "It is He. He has come, it is He!" And I do not see how you figure that the apostles took things from the Old Testament and used them out of their proper context all the time. Thats absolutely ridiculous. And if you believe that Paul 'pulled Esau and Issac out of contexts to show election', then surely you do not know what is meant by keeping scriptures in their proper context.

This contexts thing was probably one of the reasons the Scribes and Pharisees rejected Jesus as the Messiah.

I doubt it.

Now let’s see if you do this yourself. You used this scripture in the beginning of your post in support of God annihilating those who do not confess their sins.

Okay, lets see.

Who was John speaking to? Those that know not Christ or those that do?

Evidently the letter was written to those who believed in Christ.

Who was John saying must confess their sins? Those that know not Christ or those that do?

John didn't say anyone must confess their sins. after making the statement that all were guilty of sin, he made a clear and concise statement that if we (John and the believers to whom he wrote) confessed or acknowledged their sins to God, that God would be faithful and just to forgive them their sins and to cleanse them from all unrighteousness. But it makes no sense that if an unbelieving person came to repentance and acknowledged their sins before God, that, since He calls all to repentance, He would be unfaithful and unjust to Christ to also forgive them their sins and cleanse them from all unrighteousness. (There are some scriptures which ascend context - that is, they have the same message in any context in which they are used.)

I think you get my point, for if you are using this scripture as support of annihilation then it is not those that know not Christ but those who do know Him that are annihilated.

And as far as 'getting your point' is concerned, I am sorry to have to tell you this, but I really don't believe you made much of one.

Well if God by Love of the whole world sent Jesus Christ into the world by Love in order to save the whole world and the whole world is not saved then His (Gods) Love failed to bring about that which He sent it to do.

John 3: 14. "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15. That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
And so once again we see that it was not God's love that failed. But it was those who failed to believe in Christ who were the failures.

 

[Evergreen48]

1 Timothy 2:4
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
It is Gods will for all men to be saved, yet many of God's own people stand up and say even though it is Gods will that all be saved He cannot perform it. I have asked why and standard aswer is because of man unbelief. What! shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid.

It is God's desire that all men should be saved. And it is not God's inability to save those who do not believe. But if they are lost, it is their refusal to lay hold of the salvation that is there for them.

Daniel 4:35

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and amoung the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Do Gods own people not believe the scriptures anymore?

Some do, some don't, I think.

Does this scripture not state that God does everything according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth, and NONE can stay his hand.

Yes, of course it states this. But obviously God does not will everything to happen that He longs for or would like to see happen. For instance, He commands ALL men EVERYWHERE to repent. And obviously all do not. If He did not wish or long for this to happen, surely He would not have commanded it.

Does not the potter have power over the clay in His hands?

Yes indeed! In fact, He had so much power over that clay in His hands, that he gave it the ability to think and to reason. And in so doing He gave that same piece of clay the freedom to either obey or disobey His holy law.

Ephesians 1:9-11

9 Having made known unto us the Mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Can we not understand by this that God works all things after the counsel of His own will, so that in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather togerther all things in Christ, Is not bringing all together in Christ the mystery of His will? A mystery that is being unfolded today, yet many reject it as heresy.

The things both in heaven and in the earth which are gathered together as one in Christ are all the things of God of a spiritual nature, and does not include physical or material things, nor evil.

Isaiah 14:24 24 The Lord of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:

God swore by Himself because He can swear by none greater, and we know that God cannot lie therefore surely all His purpose shall come to pass.

Isaiah 14:24. The Lord of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
25. That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.
26. This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.
27. For the Lord of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

It is clear that Isaiah 14: 12 has nothing to do with what we are talking about here. (I won't mention context, as you do not seem to know what is meant by context.) But it is agreed that if God decrees that a certain thing will happen, that certain thing will happen. But God does not decree everything to happen that He desires or wishes would happen, especially where mankind is concerned. If this were the case mankind would be no more than the mindless grass or a plant which grows from the ground, lives all its life in one place, waves in the wind for a season and then dies.

What purpose did God have in sending His son? Was it not for the salvation of the whole world?
Therefore if the whole world is not saved does God then not become a liar?

God does not lie. God did not decree that everyone would be saved. His decree was that everyone could be saved through His Son, Jesus Christ. There is a big difference between would and could.

Isaiah 46:10-11
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Gods counsel shall stand and He will do all His pleasure. Why is this so hard for Christians to understand? He declared from the beginning that which shall be in the end.

Isaiah 46:1. "Bel boweth down, Nebo stoopeth, their idols were upon the beasts, and upon the cattle: your carriages were heavy loaden; they are a burden to the weary beast.
2. They stoop, they bow down together; they could not deliver the burden, but themselves are gone into captivity.
3. Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne by me from the belly, which are carried from the womb:
4. And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you.
5. To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?
6. They lavish gold out of the bag, and and weigh silver in the balance and hire a goldsmith; and he maketh it a god: they fall down, yea, they worship.
7. They bear him upon the shoulder, they carry him, and set him in his place, and he standeth; from his place shall he not remove: yea, one shall cry unto him, yet can he not answer, nor save him out of his trouble.
8. Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.
9. Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10. Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11. Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
12. Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:
13. I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory."

Again, there is much profit from reading the whole discourse. Doing this is very helpful to keeping a proper perspective concerning what is being read.

 

[Evergreen48]

Isaiah 55:10-11
10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.


I really like this one. The WORD did come out from God, made in the likeness of flesh for the salvation of the whole world. And as the WORD was sent forth it will not return void but shall accomplish EVERYTHING that it was sent to do. Why do so many still believe His WORD came in vain? The salvation of the whole world was His purpose in coming so what can we say if He does not fulfill His purpose? There is only one conclusion, His WORD returned void. Believe what you will, I believe His WORD will do exactly what He came to do. Like it or not brothers and sisters Gods WORD Jesus Christ will fulfill to the fullest exactly what He came to do, THE SALVATION OF ALL.

Isaiah 55:1. "Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
2. Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
3. Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
4. Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.
5. Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
6. Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7. Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10. For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11. So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
12. For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
13. Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the Lord for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off."

Jesus never came as a life line He came as the saviour of the whole world NOT the potential saviour of the whole world.

Isaiah 55:3. Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

Isaiah 55:6. Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7. Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

(Gee, I wonder how those passages would figure into your exegesis ? ? ?)

That right providing a life line does not save a person, thus He NEVER came as a life line, but rather as SAVIOUR. He did not throw a life line to sinking man He jumped into the water with man to pull him out of the water he was drowning in.
He is NOT the potential SAVIOUR of ALL men, He IS the SAVIOUR of ALL MEN.

Christ is a potential Saviour of all men. He is the Saviour of those who follow and trust in Him.

Well do you not believe it is by the faith of Jesus Christ we live and move and have our being?

If not maybe you can supply a scripture that states otherwise.

Do you believe the earth is square, flat and has corners?
If not maybe you can supply a scripture that states otherwise.

And when I quote scripture I quote it exactly as it is written.

Of course you do. So does everyone. If they do not quote it exactly as it is written, they are not really quoting scripture.

We live and move and have our being because of theFAITH of the Son of God."

Are my thoughts on what the scriptures say, I never said or implied otherwise.

Of course this just my own opinion, but maybe you should state that either prior to or after you have made statements like that. That way there would be no misunderstandings.

 

[Pneuma3]

well all I can say Evergreen is you will beleive what you will, we have been down this road together a couple of times and it has profitted nothing, so I see no reason to continue a debate for debates sake at this time.

God bless.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Seven Thunders. You've either heard them, or not.

End of debate.