Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

[Saint Steven]

The life we now have is a progressing, growing, conquering life - the LIFE OF THE AGES. It is life that has come by the quickening of our spirit by His Spirit, giving a new beginning, and the potential to become, in due time, all He is. But I am sure my readers, with myself, must confess that there is a great deal of progress still to be made, considerable growth to be experienced, much transformation to be wrought before we stand in Him in the fullness of that life that needs no change, no further development, no additional experience, no more growth, no fuller stature, no added triumph, no increase of wisdom and knowledge - that state of being as unchangeable as He is unchangeable, as ETERNAL AS HE IS ETERNAL! Only faintly now do our eyes behold the splendor of that eternal realm which lies before us, but if we approach softly with reverence and godly fear, not disrespectfully and thoughtlessly as nosey children prying into some sacred thing, then the Lord of glory will meet us and will be a Father unto us and we shall be the Sons of God in whom the Father shall unfold the fullness of His life, mind, will and glory. Thus shall we come into that same image and be sharers with the Christ in the glory He had with the Father BEFORE TIME WAS - ETERNAL GLORY! I think I know why some become so enraged when we tell them that we do not now possess the absolutely eternal life. Is it not because they would rather ignore this life of the ages, somehow projecting themselves into that life which is eternal, claiming "by faith" the finished product, while by-passing the tedious processing? Ah, dear ones, it doesn't work that way! God has graciously given unto us life aionios - the life of the ages - and how I thank God that my present state of being is NOT ETERNAL! There is MORE! I would follow on to know Him in all fullness. And it will take "the ages," my friend, to unfold it all. As long as there is need for growth, change, and advancement, there is need for time. But redemption as a completed plan has a unique relationship to time. Until redemption is complete its work will proceed in time, but the finished work of redemption stands at time's end. Thank God! There is an END - then eternity, God all in all!

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

 

[BNR32FAN]

Better not to have been born. Not to have never existed.

Jesus said it would have been better if Judas had not been born. He did not say it would have been better if Judas had never been conceived or existed. The latter opposes universalism, the former does not necessarily do so. One who dies in the womb without being born has existed. To not be born & die before being born means that one existed.

It would be better to be (1) concieved (& therefore to exist) & not be born than (2) to be born & live a wicked life (e.g. Judas Iscariot), because the former is in better standing with God than the latter (compare, for example, Lk.12:47-48). Judas will suffer the wrath of God of which the child in utero, who was never born, is not deserving. Therefore, for Judas, it would have been better if he had never been born, but died in his mother's womb. But, though he will suffer the wrath of God, this does not rule out the possibility of his ultimate salvation. Therefore Mt.26:24 fails as a proof text against him being saved.

That’s a very obtuse way to view what Jesus said especially since Jesus made no reference of any comparison between existence and birth. The only way someone could possibly reach that conclusion is by completing ignoring the obvious implications and search diligently for some sort of alternative meaning. I see no reason why anyone would need to do this just reading the scriptures unless they had a particular agenda that they must reconcile this verse with.

 

[agapelove]

Even the account of Lazarus and the rich man shows that while Paradise was open and the lost in the place of torments could see them, they could not repent and switch sides. The burden of proof still lies on you.

Annihilists see the story as a parable and not really representative of the afterlife condition. Infernalists see the story as the terminal fate of the rich man.

Universalists see the story as the rich man not truly attempting to repent yet. It is a story of kingdom justice in which the first become the last, the poor in the eyes of the world inherit the kingdom (Sermon on the Plain Luke 6:20-26). The rich man represents all who live in luxury and willfully disregard the poor (Ekeziel 16:49). Jesus' ministry was very much about proclaiming the reversal of fortunes and how we must prepare through repentance. What the rich man is experiencing is not punitive but pedagogical. God is taking him through the painful process of removing character defects that have to do with arrogance and idolatry of wealth and the rich man finally knows the agony of thirst and deprivation that Lazarus felt on Earth.

The rich man's real problem is that he is still fighting the process rather than surrendering to it. His agenda is still to help his brothers avoid pain rather than any real concern for the poor and needy.

This is not true repentance and that is why he is still there.

 

[Saint Steven]

Annihilists see the story as a parable and not really representative of the afterlife condition. Infernalists see the story as the terminal fate of the rich man.

Universalists see the story as the rich man not truly attempting to repent yet. It is a story of kingdom justice in which the first become the last, the poor in the eyes of the world inherit the kingdom (Sermon on the Plain Luke 6:20-26). The rich man represents all who live in luxury and willfully disregard the poor (Ekeziel 16:49). Jesus' ministry was very much about proclaiming the reversal of fortunes and how we must prepare through repentance. What the rich man is experiencing is not punitive but pedagogical. God is taking him through the painful process of removing character defects that have to do with arrogance and idolatry of wealth and the rich man finally knows the agony of thirst and deprivation that Lazarus felt on Earth.

The rich man's real problem is that he is still fighting the process rather than surrendering to it. His agenda is still to help his brothers avoid pain rather than any real concern for the poor and needy.

This is not true repentance and that is why he is still there.

I agree.
And those who believe the story is not really representative of the afterlife, need to explain why Jesus would give such "misleading" information about it, and why no one objected to the story. (in regards to what it said about the afterlife)

 

[Der Alte]

Annihilists see the story as a parable and not really representative of the afterlife condition. Infernalists see the story as the terminal fate of the rich man.
Universalists see the story as the rich man not truly attempting to repent yet. It is a story of kingdom justice in which the first become the last, the poor in the eyes of the world inherit the kingdom (Sermon on the Plain Luke 6:20-26). The rich man represents all who live in luxury and willfully disregard the poor (Ekeziel 16:49). Jesus' ministry was very much about proclaiming the reversal of fortunes and how we must prepare through repentance. What the rich man is experiencing is not punitive but pedagogical. God is taking him through the painful process of removing character defects that have to do with arrogance and idolatry of wealth and the rich man finally knows the agony of thirst and deprivation that Lazarus felt on Earth.
The rich man's real problem is that he is still fighting the process rather than surrendering to it. His agenda is still to help his brothers avoid pain rather than any real concern for the poor and needy.
This is not true repentance and that is why he is still there.

If one googles "Lazarus and the rich man." you will find many, many "correct interpretations."
Every ECF who quoted or referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it to be factual.

• Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, [120-202 AD], was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position , and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
• Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection.
This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
• Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality . For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
• Tertullian Part First A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
9. Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul , has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
• The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah [A.D. 260-312]
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence. ​

 

[agapelove]

If one googles "Lazarus and the rich man." you will find many, many "correct interpretations."
Every ECF who quoted or referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it to be factual.

I consider it to be factual as well. What is the point you are making?

 

[ClementofA]

That’s a very obtuse way to view what Jesus said especially since Jesus made no reference of any comparison between existence and birth. The only way someone could possibly reach that conclusion is by completing ignoring the obvious implications and search diligently for some sort of alternative meaning. I see no reason why anyone would need to do this just reading the scriptures unless they had a particular agenda that they must reconcile this verse with.

LOL. Your comment comes down to this: I'm ignoring the obvious.

I say you're ignoring the obvious.

It's obvious that conception is not birth.

So who has the agenda?

 

[BNR32FAN]

LOL. Your comment comes down to this: I'm ignoring the obvious.

I say you're ignoring the obvious.

It's obvious that conception is not birth.

So who has the agenda?

Like I said Jesus gave no comparison between conception and birth, in fact He never mentions conception in the entire chapter or the at Last Supper. I’m pretty certain he doesn’t mention conception in the entire book of Matthew. What He said was to let Judas know that He knew his plan and that there would be dire consequences for it. I can’t imagine how anyone would conclude that Jesus’ message to Judas at that time was that it is better to not be born than to not be conceived seeing that this would apply to everyone and in no way conveys the consequences of his actions or even relates to the discussion in any way. It would be completely off topic. What possible relevance would this have to His conversation with Judas?


“Now when evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the twelve disciples. As they were eating, He said, "Truly I say to you that one of you will betray Me." Being deeply grieved, they each one began to say to Him, "Surely not I, Lord?" And He answered, "He who dipped his hand with Me in the bowl is the one who will betray Me. The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." And Judas, who was betraying Him, said, "Surely it is not I, Rabbi?" Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭26:20-25‬ ‭NASB‬‬

So at this point in the conversation Jesus feels it’s necessary to explain how it is better to exist than to not exist? Is that what your saying?

 

[ClementofA]

Like I said Jesus gave no comparison between conception and birth, in fact He never mentions conception in the entire chapter or the at Last Supper. I’m pretty certain he doesn’t mention conception in the entire book of Matthew. What He said was to let Judas know that He knew his plan and that there would be dire consequences for it.

You did say that. And now you've said it again. I'm not sure why.

Jesus said "born". If He wanted to say "never existed" why didn't He?

Isn't that obvious?

I can’t imagine how anyone would conclude that Jesus’ message to Judas at that time was that it is better to not be born than to not be conceived seeing that this would apply to everyone and in no way conveys the consequences of his actions or even relates to the discussion in any way. It would be completely off topic. What possible relevance would this have to His conversation with Judas?

I find your thoughts here quite confusing. Especially that long rambling sentence.

“Now when evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the twelve disciples. As they were eating, He said, "Truly I say to you that one of you will betray Me." Being deeply grieved, they each one began to say to Him, "Surely not I, Lord?" And He answered, "He who dipped his hand with Me in the bowl is the one who will betray Me. The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." And Judas, who was betraying Him, said, "Surely it is not I, Rabbi?" Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭26:20-25‬ ‭NASB‬‬

So at this point in the conversation Jesus feels it’s necessary to explain how it is better to exist than to not exist? Is that what your saying?

No. My original post already explained that & a lot more related material:

In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.[/indent]

No, He doesn't.

• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6

In Mt.18:6 is the lame warning of a punishment which is compared to mere drowning, which is nothing compared to being kept alive for the sole purpose of being tortured for all the "endless" ages of eternity that have "no end" & "never" cease. Jesus says it is "better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea". OTOH, if He had been a believer in endless punishment, He could have expressed that by saying it is better for them to have never lived, never been conceived, or that their parents had never known (had sex with) one another. Compare this anti-biblical Jewish view that the Lord Jesus Christ, Love Omnipotent, rejected:

"To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b)." GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24

Better not to have been born. Not to have never existed.

Jesus said it would have been better if Judas had not been born. He did not say it would have been better if Judas had never been conceived or existed. The latter opposes universalism, the former does not necessarily do so. One who dies in the womb without being born has existed. To not be born & die before being born means that one existed.

It would be better to be (1) concieved (& therefore to exist) & not be born than (2) to be born & live a wicked life (e.g. Judas Iscariot), because the former is in better standing with God than the latter (compare, for example, Lk.12:47-48). Judas will suffer the wrath of God of which the child in utero, who was never born, is not deserving. Therefore, for Judas, it would have been better if he had never been born, but died in his mother's womb. But, though he will suffer the wrath of God, this does not rule out the possibility of his ultimate salvation. Therefore Mt.26:24 fails as a proof text against him being saved.

• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence.

None of those verses refer to a "fate worse than...nonexistence". And a "fate worse than death" need not be endless tortures & is nowhere near being similar to endless tortures. Compare:

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

 

[Saint Steven]

As God's plan of the ages has progressed there has been a level of life, a spiritual vitality, for each age. Each age has been different. Men in antediluvian times knew God in a certain way and received life of a particular order. Israel, under the law, and the ministry of the prophets, entered into another degree of spiritual life. Perhaps I can give you a simple illustration in this way. There is a difference between "fetus" life and "baby" life and "child" life. There is a difference between "youthful" life and "middle-age" life and "old-age" life. Can we not see by this that there is a continuing development of God's life in us, until HIS FULLNESS is attained, and there shall be a continuing development of His life in the whole human family in the ages to come until God becomes all in all.

God is cultivating within His Sons an eternal nature. The thoughts of God's people are becoming boundless and eternal, no longer controlled and motivated purely by carnal memories of the past, by present events, or by dim hopes for an endless future in "mansions over the hill-top". The fledgling spirits of God's Sons are fast growing up into the limitless expanses of God's own eternal, spiritual nature. Yes, the whole man is becoming a new, eternal creation, no longer limited by the space-time continuum. God's maturing Sons see the reality of a state of being called eternity, and their hearts strain and leap upward toward that "place" in God!

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

 

[Der Alte]

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.
Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Hebrews 10:28-30
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. [Deut 32;25] And again, The Lord shall judge his people.​

The only thing "lame" in this repetitious specious argument. The punishment in Heb 10:28 is not concerning different forms of death penalty in Israel. The penalty is "much sorer punishment" than "death without mercy." What is worse that "death without mercy?"

 

[FineLinen]

The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases.
Your mercies never come to an end;
they are new every morning,
new every morning:
great is your faithfulness, O Lord,
great is your faithfulness!

Never = ? ?

 

[FineLinen]

The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases.
Your mercies never come to an end;
they are new every morning,
new every morning:
great is your faithfulness, O Lord,
great is your faithfulness!

Never = ? ?

Welcome to the God of oudepote.

Oudepote =

Not ever.

Not at any time.

Never ever. Never at any time.

 

[Der Alte]

Jesus was sent with one mission to accomplish. Did he succeed, or did he fail?
This question is addressed in the book
The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby...

If God allows fallen human will to prevail, then Jesus' mission cannot possibly be a success. All die in Adam as slaves to sin, and he that wields the power of death triumphs. But God was in Christ on the cross reconciling the whole world to Him. All are made alive in Christ. Every knee will bow and every tongue confess, guaranteed. For who can withstand His holy presence? The old is washed away, and behold! out of the divine fire the new creation emerges, an overcomer by the blood of the Lamb, the love of God and the fellowship of the HS.
The Hound of Heaven will retrieve all po-faced unbelievers from the mire.

What was God perfect plan in Jeremiah 13? God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s express will, clearly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done.
But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.
When/where does God say to disobedient Israel and Judah, "I will now pity, spare, and have mercy, and restore you?"

 

[Shrewd Manager]

When/where does God say to disobedient Israel and Judah, "I will now pity, spare, and have mercy, and restore you?"

By His actions.

The fact that the Bible story continues after the Babylonian woe should tell you something.

It's laid out there in Isaiah especially ch.42-53, where God reveals His plan to send a saviour to redeem Israel from captivity. The Gospel of Isaiah.

God's wrath is but for a moment, His mercy goes on forever.

 

[Saint Steven]

God's wrath is but for a moment, His mercy goes on forever.

Right.
How do they get a "forever burning hell with no hope of escape" out of that?

 

[Der Alte]

By His actions.
The fact that the Bible story continues after the Babylonian woe should tell you something.
It's laid out there in Isaiah especially ch.42-53, where God reveals His plan to send a saviour to redeem Israel from captivity. The Gospel of Isaiah.
God's wrath is but for a moment, His mercy goes on forever.

So you concede that there is not one single verse, in either testament, where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, is speaking which clearly, unequivocally states that all mankind, righteous and unrighteous alike, will be saved, even after death.
What UR-ites have is a list of out-of-context proof texts from which UR-ites infer their doctrines. Much like this Matt 27:5 "Judas hanged himself." Luk 10:37 "Go thou and do likewise."

 

[ClementofA]

Hebrews 10:28-30
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. [Deut 32;25] And again, The Lord shall judge his people.​

The only thing "lame" in this repetitious specious argument. The punishment in Heb 10:28 is not concerning different forms of death penalty in Israel. The penalty is "much sorer punishment" than "death without mercy." What is worse that "death without mercy?"

The death by stoning, etc, is the "death without compassion" of Heb.10:28. A more compassionate death would be to use less painful methods of capital punishment where the criminal suffered less or died almost instantly, e.g. decapitation. Hebrews 10 warns that even worse punishment awaits Christ rejecters. Yet the obvious implication is that it is not worthy of being burned alive for all eternity. Love Omnipotent is a just Father of those created in His image.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death.

Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

************************************

One thing God has spoken, two things I have heard: “Power belongs to you, God, and with you, Lord, is unfailing love”; Psalm 62:11b-12a

Love Omnipotent loves you more than you can imagine!

If you want to know how much God loves you, look to the incarnation, life, sufferings, and crucifixion of Christ. His love & power for you are greater than the size of the universe:

 

[ClementofA]

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.
When/where does God say to disobedient Israel and Judah, "I will now pity, spare, and have mercy, and restore you?"

Then what you need to do amigo is quote some of that "reading" here rather than just make vague references to it.

Your argument here is nothing but more, "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!
Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the OT. Jer 13:14
Thus shall Judah be broken without mercy or pity. To increase the emphasis, there is a cumulation of expressions, as in Jer_21:7; Jer_15:5, cf. Eze_5:11; Eze_7:4, Eze_7:9, etc.
Robertson Word Pictures in the NT
Rev., more and more exceedingly an eternal weight, etc. An expression after the form of Hebrew superlatives, in which the emphatic word is twice repeated. Lit., exceedingly unto excess. The use of such cumulative expressions is common with Paul. See, for example, Phi_1:23, lit., much more better; Rom_8:37, abundantly the conquerors; Eph_3:20, exceeding abundantly, etc. Note how the words are offset: for a moment, eternal; light,

All irrelevant. Nothing there refutes what i've previously posted, e.g.:

Verses which state a purpose do not mean that purpose will certainly come to pass. See e.g. Jeremiah 13:7-14. God stated, in the most emphatic way He could, that His will for all of Judah and Israel was for them to cleave to Him and be unto Him a people, a name, a praise and a glory: but they would not hear and obey so He destroyed them without pity or mercy.
..

Jer.13:7-14 does - not - say that. It says God - caused - them to cleave to Him.

As to the purpose of God Almighty, Love Omnipotent, being fulfilled:

Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

Conclusion: All will be saved

Supporting verses:

Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases(THELO) (Psalm 115:3).

Whatever the LORD pleases(THELO), He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps (Psalm 135:6).

"So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire(THELO), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).

1 Timothy 2:4 + God does all He desires = all will be saved?

You keep trying to shift the burden of proof to me when it is all yours. Here is what scripture says.
Jeremiah 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
God is speaking in this verse, Can you show me any verse where God Himself is speaking, not Paul or some other writer, said about the Israelites He destroyed in Jer 13:14.,
because they rejected Him, "Oops I changed my mind and now I will have mercy, I will have pity. I will spare and I will undestroy and save them?

If He didn't have pity - as regards the particular judgment in view - of the context - and killed them, how does that address what happens to them postmortem? Does He say
that after He destroys/kills them that He will - never - have mercy on them in the afterlife also? Or is the passage completely silent about any postmortem consequences?
Does the context even mention "hell"? No. Compare this a few chapters later from the same book & author:

Jeremiah 21:7
"Then afterwards," declares the LORD, "I will give over Zedekiah king of Judah and his servants and the people, even those who survive in this city from the pestilence, the
sword and the famine, into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and into the hand of their foes and into the hand of those who seek their lives; and he will strike
them down with the edge of the sword. He will not spare them nor have pity nor compassion."

Which proves the "not sparing" & not "having pity" is related to this life only and the particular judgement in view - in the context - i.e. being killed..."he will strike
them down with the edge of the sword". It has nothing to do with anything beyond this life, or postmortem consequences.

Show me where that quote or context says after He destroyed them, i.e. killed their body, that He would also never have mercy on their - souls - postmortem. If you can't do that, then as far as opposing universalism your verse fails with all the other lame attempts to oppose universalism & is discarded into the trash can of failed attempts to oppose universalism.

Nowhere in Scripture does it say those destroyed (i.e. killed) cannot be saved postmortem. Or that they cannot receive correction and mercy postmortem. 1 Cor.5:4-5 says destruction is for salvation. And Mt.1:21 + 2:6; Rom.11:26; Isa.45:21-25 all Israel shall be saved.

Many scriptures show God's punishments in this life are corrective & there's nothing in the Bible saying that He suddenly changes His ways in that regard postmortem.

Hab.1:12 O LORD my God, my Holy One, you who are eternal--surely you do not plan to wipe us out? O LORD, our Rock, you have sent these Babylonians to correct us, to punish us for our many sins.

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

Isaiah 12:1
Then you will say on that day, "I will give thanks to You, O LORD; For although You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, And You comfort me.

Hosea 6:1
"Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us.

Isa.57:17 “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.

18“I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

It seems they will "come to Him" & "be ashamed" of themselves:

Isa.45:24 The people will declare, "The LORD is the source of all my righteousness and strength." And all who were angry with him will come to him and be ashamed.

And he that "comes to Him" shall find rest & He shall not cast out (Mt.11:28; Jn.6:37).

Isa.45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

<Clem>Can you show me where that quote or context says after he destroyed them, i.e. killed their body, that he would also NEVER have mercy on their - souls - postmortem. If you can't do that, then as far as opposing universalism your verse fails with all the other lame attempts to oppose universalism & is discarded into the trash can of failed attempts to oppose universalism.
Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).
Conclusion: All will be saved<end>
What part of God, Himself, saying "I [God]will not pity, [I God will not ]spare, [I God will] destroy them? Do you think God did not mean "I will not have pity" when He said it? Do you think "I will not have mercy" means "sometime in the future I will have mercy?"
Jeremiah 13:14
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, said the LORD: [יהוה/YHWH]I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
The burden of proof is on you, and/or all other UR-ites, to prove from scripture that God decided to change His mind and sometime in the future He would have pity and mercy and would undestroy the unfaithful and disobedient Israelites in Jer 13. Your 2 proof texts from Jn and 1 Jn do not, cannot supersede the words of God Himself. There is no NT verse or verses which can supersede the plain meaning of the scriptures I quoted.

You're confused if you think Jer.13:14 denies biblical universalism. (Is that what you think?) It doesn't & you've provided - no evidence whatsoever - that is the case. Where is your evidence, logic or argument that Jer.13:14 is a "proof text" against Scriptural Universalism? You've given none. Anyone should be able to see that Jer.13:14 - fails miserably - as an alleged "proof text" against universalism. Can you not see that? Evidently not, since you keep posting the same verse over & over again.

When a judge sentences criminals to capital punishment & does "not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them", does that mean they have been sentenced to an endless torture chamber? No. Does it mean they cannot be saved postmortem? No. Your verse - fails - as a "proof text" against universalism. Can you not see this?

When God "destroyed" the world with a flood, children & babies included, He did not "spare" the world, or have "mercy" (the same words Jer.13:14 uses) but did "destroy" (same English word as Jer.13:14) the people of the world. Does that prove these people (babies included) could not be saved postmortem? No. And IMO the same applies to Jer.13:14. Now let's see you try to refute that. Also note that Jer.13:14 refers to "fathers and sons". How young might some of those "sons" be? Do you suppose babies will be frying in hell for all eternity, like Augustine (the so-called champion of eternal punishment) believed?

To give another example, God made the king in Daniel 4 eat grass like an animal for 7 years. God did not "spare" him from this ordeal, nor have "mercy" on him to pardon him from this punishment, but instead subjected him to this insanity (a destruction of his soul) for 7 years. Yet afterwards the king was restored to sanity, humbled & worshipped God.

Consider also the following passages from the Bible & 100's more at the urls below:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Cor.15:28 Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects ALL to Him, that God may be All in ALL.)

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.

Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Lk.12:47 That servant who knows his master’s will but does not get ready or follow his instructions will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who unknowingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with few blows.

Lk.15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness,
and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

1 Tim 4:10 – For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

1 Tim.2:3 God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Jn.1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

 

[Der Alte]

The death by stoning, etc, is the "death without compassion" of Heb.10:28. ...

There were different penalties for different crimes. There were four types of capital punishment stoning, burning, sword and hanging. But no matter how many times you post this smoke and mirrors Hebrews 10:28 is not about the various types of executions. It says "death without mercy" but there is a "sorer punishment." What is the "sorer punishment" than "death without mercy?"