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Featured Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Saint Steven, Apr 19, 2020.

  1. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Jesus was sent with one mission to accomplish. Did he succeed, or did he fail?

    1 John 4:14
    And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

    This question is addressed in the book
    The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby

    Here's the opening paragraph below to get you started.
    I will continue to post paragraphs for discussion as we go.


    AMONG all the questions that men have asked, there is one that is of supreme interest and importance. Why are we here? What is our destiny? What lies beyond the grave for the Christian, for the unbeliever? For old, for young? For our fellow citizens, and for the teeming masses in far-away lands serving strange gods? These questions were raised by one of the great poets of all times. I am speaking now of that American genius of letters, Edgar Allen Poe - an incomparable genius, and yet a man whose life was destroyed by unbelief. Millions of people have read his masterpiece, "The Raven," but few, I am afraid, have ever grasped the real spiritual significance of the struggle that was going on in the soul of this man. He asked four very significant questions - questions which every living soul, at one, time or another, must raise to God. First, Is there a God who comforts? Is there a God who can assuage the pain of life? (In this case it is the poignant pain of the loss of a loved one, his beloved Lenore.) Is there "some water from the river of paradise, the water of Nephenthe," which can take away the heartache that is driving him insane? Secondly, he asks, Is there really a Christ? Does He live? Is there a balm in Gilead? Is there One who can smoothe the wrinkled brow and soften the hard heart? Thirdly, he asks, Is there some place, some heaven, some distant Eden or future world where we shall be joined again with our loved ones? And, finally, Is there any hope that the darkness and hopelessness and despair of this life will be lifted? But always he directs his questions to his own unbelief which is personified in that grim and ghastly raven, a picture of doubt and unbelief. A few years after writing those chilling words, Poe became insane. Regaining his sanity, he drank himself to death, and this genius was found dead in the gutter.

    Source: Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1


    Audio version: By J. Preston Eby Audio – Kingdom Resources
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2020
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  2. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    If God allows fallen human will to prevail, then Jesus' mission cannot possibly be a success. All die in Adam as slaves to sin, and he that wields the power of death triumphs. But God was in Christ on the cross reconciling the whole world to Him. All are made alive in Christ. Every knee will bow and every tongue confess, guaranteed. For who can withstand His holy presence? The old is washed away, and behold! out of the divine fire the new creation emerges, an overcomer by the blood of the Lamb, the love of God and the fellowship of the HS.

    The Hound of Heaven will retrieve all po-faced unbelievers from the mire.
     
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  3. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Untold billions of human beings have lived and died without hearing the gospel of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. What has become of them? Is there no hope? For more than six thousand years generations of men, like the grass, have appeared and in a few fleeting years withered and vanished. Whence came those countless billions of human beings, and where do they go? This is the problem which has preoccupied the world's thought since the dawn of history. This is the question about which philosophers have theorized and theologians have dogmatized. Unquestionably the problem of the eternal destiny of mankind is the question of questions! It concerns every individual and touches everything of enduring interest. Life is a vapor that appears for a while and vanishes away. But there is a beyond! What is that beyond to be?

    Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
    Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1
     
  4. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Three posts, hundreds of words of meaningless bloviation and not one single verse of scripture.
     
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  5. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    What a glorious God has drawn us to Himself! He never fails to bring to consummation one single degree of His purposes in our Lord & Saviour of the all, the Lord Lesous, Jesus Christ.

    Saint: greetings again to you and the brother from down under, Shrewd. With all the unprecedented doom and gloom on planet earth, it is good to present the unprecedented ultimate answer to the mess. Behold, I radically make all things new.

    By J. Preston Eby Audio – Kingdom Resources
     
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  6. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    Amen, the only thing that can raise us out of this Babylon is the faith of Christ, the assurance of the absolute success of his mission. Take heart, for he has overcome the world!
     
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  7. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    That has a nice ring to it. - lol
    Thus making the precious presence of the unprecedented, present and preemptive, while prompting the presumptive to preempt their pompous and preposterous posturing, if you please. (I think I know someone with a voluminous vocab that could double the length of that declaration)
     
  8. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    God has a plan indeed, God has a wonderful plan for this world! It is a plan of which the architectural drawings were made in eternity. It encompasses the minutest detail of all of creation. I assure you that when time has run its course, and the veil is dropped upon the final scene, we shall discover that that plan has been worked out to its very tiniest detail, just as God had planned it in eternity - that His will has been done!

    That is an amazing thought because it often seems as if the world is flying off unattended, like a chariot where the driver has fallen off, the horses are running wild, the reins are flapping in the breeze, and it is threatening to go over the precipice at any moment. Yet the Scriptures would have us know that God, the sovereign Lord of history, has His hands firmly upon those reins and that His plan is coming to pass. Think about it! Our God is perfect in all His attributes. He is perfect in His power. He is perfect in His holiness and justice. He is perfect in His love and mercy. He is perfect in His wisdom and in His omniscience. Therefore, His plan must be perfect. Indeed it is a perfect plan!

    Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
    Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1
     
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  9. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    A perfect plan, conceived by a perfect Creator, bathed in
    incredible attributes of limited preceded by "un".

    Our God is the Unlimited One!

     
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  10. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    What was God perfect plan in Jeremiah 13? God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s express will, clearly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
    …..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

    Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
    2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
    3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
    4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
    5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
    6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
    7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
    8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
    9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
    10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
    11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.

    · · ·
    14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
    Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.
    Where does God say to disobedient Israel and Judah, "I will pity, spare, and have mercy, and restore them?"
     
  11. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    He (Jesus) tried to do the same thing that YHWH or the Holy Spirit tried to do in the OT, but the exact time, (cause I believe He succeeded), and fulfillment of it all, or all of it, etc, (is continually being fulfilled one thing at a time), but the complete full fulfillment of it all or all of it, etc, was (I believe) sealed for a future time and date, which is, was, and has always been, from even before the very beginning, in the Father's knowledge and knowing alone, from the very beginning, etc...

    God Bless!
     
  12. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, To the praise of the glory of His grace , wherein He has made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace ; Wherein He has abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of His will , according to His good pleasure which He has purposed in Himself :That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will .”
     
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  13. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    John 14:9- "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen (knows) me hath seen (knows) the Father (and the Holy Spirit); and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? (or "God", etc)"

    1 John 1:2- "(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us)"

    1 John 1:3- "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."

    Father, Son, Holy Spirit...

    "He that hath seen me (Jesus) hath seen the Father (the Heavenly Father God) (and the Holy Spirit)"...

    The Son and the Spirit show us the Father... It was the one and only thing that One could not do without them...

    God Bless!
     
  14. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Thanks for your reply.
    Wow, that contains a lot of qualifiers. lol
    Curious to see what happens when we remove all "doubt". Here goes. - lol

    He (Jesus) did the same thing that YHWH and the Holy Spirit did in the OT, at the exact time, and fulfillment of it all, the complete [realization of the] fulfillment of it all, is sealed for a future time and date, which has always been, from even before the very beginning, in the Father's knowledge and knowing alone, from the very beginning...

    Something like that...
     
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  15. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Close enough for now I guess...

    Oh, and, your welcome...

    God Bless!
     
  16. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    All the promises of God lead back to the first promise concerning Christ of Genesis 3:15. The faith of the fathers in the Old Testament era, and our faith in the New Testament are one and the same faith in Christ Jesus. . . . Time does not change the object of true faith, or the Holy Spirit. There has always been and always will be one mind, one impression, one faith concerning Christ among true believers whether they live in times past, now, or in times to come.

    Knowledge was orally passed down until it was written. The evidence of this is Abel ... how did he know to sacrifice an animal? Did he know what that signified? Certainly so. What exactly was disclosed to people (orally) before the Hebrew writings is not specifically disclosed in detail to us. But that is not to say ... that there wasn't any detail taught orally before it was written ... no doubt much detail was there .... before it was written .... else how was the lineage (beginning with Adam & Eve) able to be written down. The detail was passed down orally until it was written down.

    All of mankind have believed (or not) in the good news (promise) to come whether back then or today and will continue until He returns. The Good News back then and now ... God/Jesus will provide the way back to be reconciled ... and it will be through Himself providing the appropriate and final sacrifice.

    Such as shown by God Himself from the beginning. In order for Adam & Eve to be clothed ... God Himself sacrificed an animal (provided the sacrifice).

    Genesis 3:1
    New International Version
    The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.
    (Do you see the promise of our savior Jesus in this?)

    I think people of old (before the written word) knew a lot lot more than we are willing to give them credit for.
    What was disclosed to them exactly is unknown ... what we do know ... and what they knew ... is mankind has always had the choice to follow God or not ... and people have since the beginning of time been making their choices and will be accountable for the choices they made/make.

    We are blessed to live in this age where we have the written word in great detail. Amen.
     
  17. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The Father who conceived a perfect plan in the beginning is the Father who consummates His plan in the ending. He completes in perfection what He begins!

    The Author is the Finisher.
     
  18. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    How do you respond to the first sentence of the post you quoted? Here it is again.

    "Untold billions of human beings have lived and died without hearing the gospel of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. "
     
  19. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Did Israel and Judah finish they way God planned in Jer 13?
    God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s express will, clearly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.

    …..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “
    for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”
    Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
    2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
    3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
    4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
    5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
    6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
    7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
    8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
    9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
    10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
    11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/

    ha’dabaq’thi]
    unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
    · · ·
    14
    And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
    Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

     
  20. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Psalms 19:1-4
    1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
    2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
    3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
    4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

    Romans 1:18-32
    18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
    19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
    20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
    23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
    24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
    25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
    26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


    Romans 4:15
    15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
    Romans 5:13
    13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
     
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