Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

[Neogaia777]

Do you even know the meanings of those words?

I think you are the one that needs to do some research.

Yes, I do, but I don't think you do, look them up...

And I have Bible translations where those words are actually used as they originally were, etc, and where many other translations just rendered all of them or most of them "hell", etc, but there are distinct differences, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Der Alte]

Just because it is rejected by mainstream Christianity today does not make it heresy. I prefer to turn to God for the truth not the church.
Can you explain then why there is no real word for "hell" in both Hebrew or Greek?
All along it has been the church that places such a heavy emphasis on hell NOT Jesus. Ask any preacher and he will tell you that fear is an extremely effective tactic.

That is the false narrative that heterodox pseudo-scholars spread but that is not the truth.
Would you accept evidence from the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud that there was in fact a word for hell in Hebrew and it was both "sheol" and "Ge Hinnom." In the 225 BC Greek septuagint "sheol" as translated as "hades" and "Ge Hinnom" was transliterated as "Gehenna" and "hades" and "Gehenna" were carried over to the NT as meaning the place pf fiery punishment.
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, hades and gehenna in the NT.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]​

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
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Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/gehinnom
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Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

 

[Der Alte]

Sounds like a viscous cycle.
I hope Jesus isn't crucified each time. Wasn't once enough?

I don't think the cycle is a bit sticky.

 

[FineLinen]

Why does it say "especially those who believe", etc...

The salvation of the Lord is not a potentiality. It IS!

The scope = all mankind.

AND

"those who believe/ trust in Him."

Those "malista" are the elect first fruits of the harvest of the radical all/pas of mankind.

 

[ClementofA]

I have asked Universal Reconciliation-ites many times what makes a version "literal?"

And now you have your answer. It's not rocket science ;

Most could not parse a Greek verb if their life depended on it and do not know an aorist from an Aardvark

So what? The same applies to Christians in general, including ECTers.

so how can they determine that a version is "literal?"

Apples & oranges. See above.

Their only standard appears to is if it supports UR-ism then it is "literal."

What? You can read minds of anonymous internet posters?

What gives you the idea any versions listed "support UR"?

I have quoted from the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible several times but it is not "literal" enough for them.

Does it use deceptive mis-translations like "forever and ever"?

Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church.

Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB, knows the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “aionios” and “kolasis?”

So just by being born in Greece it makes a Greek scholar your "Pope" of all Greek scholars & the rest are just amateurs in comparison?

The native Greek language spoken by those scholars born in Greece is not NT Koine Greek, but modern Greek. It is quite different after almost 2000 years distance from Christ.

Who better than the native Greek speaking scholars who were born into NT Koine Greek speaking cultures and were Early Church Father & church leading Universalists, to know the meaning of NT Greek words.

Early Church Writings Fathers:
Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church
Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, Gospel, incarnation, Jehovah) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum
Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries
https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchab.../©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.shtml
Lawrence R. Farley

…..Note, in the EOB, Paul uses “αιωνιως/aionios,” in 1 Tim 1:17 synonymous with “αιδιος/aidios” in Rom 1:20, see below.

First, that Greek word aionios does not occur in 1 Tim.1:17. Secondly, nothing in the verses say they are "synonymous" with anything. Third, you simply state that without any reason, evidence, logic or proof to support it. You might as well have said "dog is synonymous with cat, they both have a tail". Let's see your evidence that dog = cat.

Your posts repeatedly assume a "contrast" somehow gave you a "definition". (Yet you never state how). That's like saying a sentence with a contrast between "eonian life" & "death" in it proves that "eonian" means "eternal". That's the level of your logic in your post. You assume as proven what you have failed to prove.

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
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Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
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Matthew 25:46
Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
City-Data Forum - View Single Post - What does Matthew 25:46 mean?
What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum
Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [των αιωνων/tōn aiōnōn] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.

​

In 1 Tim 1:17 Paul not only uses "aionios" synonymous with "aidios," in Rom 1:20, but also defines it by pairing it with "immortal" in the same verse.

"The king of the underworld is immortal, cute, a killer, etc". To use your type of faulty reasoning/logic, since "immortal" is paired with "cute", cute must logically be defined as eternal. Wrong. And the king must be eternally cute. Wrong. And because immortal is paired with killer, the king must be eternally killing for all eternity. Wrong. And killer must be defined as eternal. Wrong.

In your post you committed the same error, saying: "Here Origen defines "aionios" as "eternal" by pairing it with "immortality." ". Same idea as my example above with the king of the underworld. Faulty logic. Faulty reasoning. Hence an unproven, unwarranted assumption.

https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone chooses to consult the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.
…..In these 9 verses, Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.”
Jesus used the word “aionios” 29 times, He never used “aionios” to refer to something mundane which cannot be eternal.
[1]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]​

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

1) The Greek word there is not aionios, as you state, but aiona meaning age, eon.
2) So your conclusion is, therefore, wrong.
3) Jesus contrasts the bread eaten by those who died with the bread that will make those who eat it live EIS "the age". EIS: to, into.
4) In light of 1) above, "forever" is a misleading, erroneous, deceptive translation.
5) Of course an "age, eon" can be finite.
6) That doesn't mean believers live only for a finite period. (There is no "only" in the verse). It doesn't address the question of how long they live or eternal destinies of anyone. Other Scriptures do that, such as when we are told we will be "immortal", cannot die anymore, will always be with the Lord, all will be saved eventually each in their own order, etc.

[2]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [ου μη/ou mé] [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

See note on ou mé at bottom. In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

1) Again here we have aion (meaning eon, age) occuring, but the translator left it out! Instead it was thrown in a pot & stirred together with the Greek - ou me - and out came the translators word "never"!
2) A number of more literal translations differ, for example:
28 And I am giving them life eonian, and they should by no means be perishing for the eon, and no one shall be snatching them out of My hand." (CLV)
https://studybible.info/CLV/John 10
3)"Definition of eonian...variant spelling of aeonian"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/eonia
"aeonian, from Greek aiṓnios "lasting an age, perpetual" (derivative of aiṓn eon) + 2-an; aeonic from eon + 1-ic"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/aeonian
4) Concerning the alleged claim: "If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’”
a) Aion most certainly means an age, e.g.: https://biblehub.com/greek/165.htm
b) Obviously an "age" (eon) can be a finite period.
c) Just because no one shall be "snatching" a believer out of Jesus' hand does not necessarily mean that the believer has "eternal security" or that the believer cannot - jump - out of His hand, i.e. fall away, backslide, & reject Him thereafter.
d) Therefore the claim in 3) above does not necessarily support the argument & the conclusion is unproven.
e) In the context of the passage i suggest that Jesus is not addressing final eternal destinies at all, but contrasting destinies in the eon to come.
f) Scripture speaks of multiple eons to come, so arguably the eon to come is finite.

​

 

[Der Alte]

Do you even know the meanings of those words?
I think you are the one that needs to do some research.

For in in-depth study of these words see my post [#762] <= link. above. And you should learn that the false narrative you have been believing is just that, false.

 

[Neogaia777]

Sheol is supposed to mean "the grave" and it is a "resting place" for the dead or those who have died, and these are not conscious after they die and remain that way until they are resurrected at the final judgment at the very end of this age or this creation, then we all get to find out where they all go, and why, etc...

Hades is a place where, when they die, they are conscious but are still here still and it is a place of torment for souls who's eternal destination at the end is as of yet "undecided" or undetermined yet still, etc, and will only be fully or completely decided for sure at the end of the final judgment at the end of this creation or age, etc, or in or at the final judgment, at the end of this creation or age, etc...

And Gehenna is the Lake of Fire, and is where souls go to be eternally tormented forever and ever after the final judgment at the end of this creation or age and is 100% completely eternal after that, and there is 100% absolutely no being saved from there after that ever, and it is just as eternal as heaven is after that, etc, and Gehenna does not have to do with here or being here like Hades (or sheol) does, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[FineLinen]

Sheol is supposed to mean "the grave" and it is a "resting place" for the dead or those who have died, and these are not conscious after they die and remain that way until they are resurrected at the final judgment at the very end of this age or this creation, then we all get to find out where they all go, and why, etc...

Hades is a place where, when they die, they are conscious but are still here still and it is a place of torment for souls who's eternal destination at the end is as of yet "undecided" or undetermined yet still, etc, and will only be fully or completely decided for sure at the end of the final judgment at the end of this creation or age, etc, or in or at the final judgment, at the end of this creation or age, etc...

And Gehenna is the Lake of Fire, and is where souls go to be eternally tormented forever and ever after the final judgment at the end of this creation or age and is 100% completely eternal after that, and there is 100% absolutely no being saved from there after that ever, and it is just as eternal as heaven is after that, etc, and Gehenna does not have to do with here or being here like Hades (or sheol) does, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

There are 4 (four) hell's. All of them are consummated in the Lake of Fire, the Limne of Theos.

Death & hell (s) are cast into the Lake of all lakes.

 

[Der Alte]

There are 4 (four) hell's. All of them are consummated in the Lake of Fire, the Limne of Theos.
Death & hell (s) are cast into the Lake of all lakes.

Nonsense. Repeating this over and over and over does not make it true. How about providing scripture for all this, if any exists.

 

[agapelove]

"Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

Are you aware that there are two distinct Gehenna traditions that developed within Judaism?

1. The Apocalyptic-Infernalist Tradition (Enoch Tradition)
Gehenna began to replace Sheol as the place of the dead. It soon turned from a place of physical destruction on Earth to a place of postmortem underworld torment. Jews, and then Christians, began to equate Gehenna (Jerusalem's legendary garbage dump) with a place of fiery judgment after death.

2. The Historic-Prophetic Tradition (Jeremiah Tradition)
Jeremiah tells us plainly what his view of Gehenna is ("Valley of the Slaughtered"), referring to the historical, literal events that took place there. In this definition of Gehenna, Jeremiah is recalling the literal fire that came to consume Jerusalem for its sins and to cleanse the land of sin's defilement.

Please reread Jesus' use of Gehenna and you will clearly see that he is following Jeremiah's straightforward use of Gehenna. Take a look at Jesus' ministry and you will clearly see parallels between Him and Jeremiah. Jesus employs the use of Gehenna NOT to prophesy afterlife destruction, but rather he is prophesying the impending fall of Jerusalem to Rome in AD 70.

In Jesus' mission to redefine our vision of God, he regularly challenged and outright broke the traditions of the elders. He never "encouraged and reinforced" the beliefs of the Jews concerning MANY things, so why do you assume he would "encourage and reinforce" their belief that Gehenna equates Hell? His listeners could never assume that Jesus always meant what the other rabbis meant when he used other common terms like "temple", "kingdom", etc. Thus, we should not accept too readily that Jesus was using Gehenna in the way that the other rabbis did.

If you accept that Jesus is commissioning Jeremiah's use of Gehenna then you will also see the hope in the fate of Gehenna. Jeremiah's final reference to Gehenna in the New Covenant Kingdom prophecies take a REDEMPTIVE twist. (Jeremiah 31: 38-40 "The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown will be Holy to the LORD.") The New Covenant promises that not only will Jerusalem be rebuilt, but the valley of ashes and bodies will reclaimed and sanctified.

It is so unfortunate that the Christian tradition has decided to follow the Enoch tradition instead of the biblical tradition of Jeremiah and JESUS. If Jesus did not mean hell when he spoke about Gehenna, then why do we continue to associate Gehenna with hell?

"We ought to also notice the irony of the Church utilizing the very place where God became violently offended by the literal burning of children as our primary metaphor for the final and eternal burning place of God's children. Thus, God becomes the very Molech who decrees that angels must deliver his children to the flames, even though this was the very reason that He ordered Hinnom be desecrated in the first place!"
Her Gates Will Never Be Shut, Bradley Jersak

 

[Der Alte]

Are you aware that there are two distinct Gehenna traditions that developed within Judaism?
1. The Apocalyptic-Infernalist Tradition (Enoch Tradition)
Gehenna began to replace Sheol as the place of the dead. It soon turned from a place of physical destruction on Earth to a place of postmortem underworld torment. Jews, and then Christians, began to equate Gehenna (Jerusalem's legendary garbage dump) with a place of fiery judgment after death....

Please do not copy/paste long dissertations from one of your pet "scholars" trying to refute something I posted. Everything I post is my own research. I review the primary sources not second, third hand articles written by other people.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1​

/…..Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:[One of my Profs. DA]
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism

Excavations near the Temple Mount and within the residential areas have already shown that no waste had accumulated there (Reich and Billig 2000), and thus waste must have been removed, most likely in an organized manner. Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem



​

 

[Saint Steven]

If you read it in other translations, and in it's context, it says that the free gift came or was offered to "all", where it says "all" in that passage, etc, cause everywhere else it says some or "many", etc, which could possibly even turn out to be few even maybe, etc...

Anyway, a free gift offered still has to be accepted, etc, and some don't accept it, etc...

And/cause this is actually what the Bible teaches throughout, etc...

God Bless!

In verse 19, how many were made sinners? The many = all
How many were made righteous through the obedience of the one man? The many = all

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Saint Steven]

He's God, and takes great pleasure in doing it for eternity, etc...

For the Joy that was set before Him, etc, and that is eternally set before Him, etc...

God Bless!

I would say the joy was after the fact. Just sayin'.

 

[Saint Steven]

Jesus employs the use of Gehenna NOT to prophesy afterlife destruction, but rather he is prophesying the impending fall of Jerusalem to Rome in AD 70.

I'm not sure if this idea is completely supportable. I hope it is, but... ???

 

[Saint Steven]

Why does it say "especially those who believe", etc...

That's a great question. Thanks.
It creates a subgroup within the ALL that are being saved. Believers.
Which means that unbelievers will be saved as well. The restoration will be universal.
That's why we call it Universal Restoration.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

 

[Der Alte]

In verse 19, how many were made sinners? The many = all
How many were made righteous through the obedience of the one man? The many = all
Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Romans 5:18-19
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.​

Paul used the word "pollus"/"many" 71 times.
He used the word "pas"/"all" 375 times.
When Paul wanted to say “all” he used "pas" not "pollus"/”many.”
Paul used "oi polloi/the many" ten times where it clearly does not mean "all."
Romans 12:5, Romans 15:22, 1 Corinthians 10:17, 1 Corinthians 10:33, 2 Corinthians 2:17, 2 Corinthians 8:15, Ephesians 2:4, Colossians 4:13, 1 Timothy 3:13

 

[agapelove]

Please do not copy/paste long dissertations from one of your pet "scholars" trying to refute something I posted. Everything I post is my own research. I review the primary sources not second, third hand articles written by other people.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1​

/…..Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:[One of my Profs. DA]
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism

Excavations near the Temple Mount and within the residential areas have already shown that no waste had accumulated there (Reich and Billig 2000), and thus waste must have been removed, most likely in an organized manner. Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem
​

Sir.... it looks like you are the one who is copy and pasting.

Whether or not Gehenna was literally a rubbish heap that was on fire 24/7 is not important to me. Its reputation and history was real.

It was a place of child sacrifice. (2 Kgs. 23:10; Jer. 7:31).
It was a mass burial site. (Jer. 7:32)
It was deemed to be cursed. (Jeremiah 7:31, 19:2–6)
It was the place where the shrines of Molech were destroyed. (2 Kings 23:10)

Whether or not these things can be proven by history or archaeology are unimportant, I believe they happened because Scripture says so.

Gehenna represents the slaughter, captivity, and oppression of God's rebellious people in history and this is the extent of how Isaiah and Jeremiah saw it. Therefore, when Jesus speaks of unrighteous Jews being thrown into the "Gehenna of fire", he is not imagining eternal punishment in hell but is prophesying real, literal consequences of turning away from God... such as Jerusalem's eventual fall to Rome.

 

[Neogaia777]

You poor dears...

Oh well...

Not understanding things that are supposed to symbolisms of something else...

Oh well...

God Bless!

 

[agapelove]

I'm not sure if this idea is completely supportable. I hope it is, but... ???

You are right. I can not prove that this is what Jesus was talking about. However there are significant parallels between Jeremiah and Jesus' ministry that we must consider before dismissing this theory.

Jeremiah 7:11 Warning of temple/city's destruction resulting in death, rubble, flames
Matthew 21:12-13 The temple is a "den of thieves" that will be overthrown

Jeremiah 19: Judgment and prophesy of destruction
Matthew 21, Mark 11, Luke 19: Judgment and prophesy of destruction

Jeremiah 31:38-40 Promise of a New Covenant and destruction/restoration of the city
Luke 22:20 Promise of a New Covenant
John 2:12-22 Destruction and then restoration of his temple

Jeremiah 52: Jerusalem falls to Babylon (587 BC)
Jerusalem falls to Rome (70 AD)

This is enough for me to believe that when Jesus uses Gehenna metaphorically, he is referring to destruction that can happen here and now and not postmortem.

 

[Der Alte]

Sir.... it looks like you are the one who is copy and pasting.
Whether or not Gehenna was literally a rubbish heap that was on fire 24/7 is not important to me. Its reputation and history was real.
It was a place of child sacrifice. (2 Kgs. 23:10; Jer. 7:31).
It was a mass burial site. (Jer. 7:32)
It was deemed to be cursed. (Jeremiah 7:31, 19:2–6)
It was the place where the shrines of Molech were destroyed. (2 Kings 23:10)

There is a big difference between quoting from random websites and quoting from standard reference sources such as subject matter encyclopedias. For example if I wanted factual information on Philosophy should I read Randy Random's website or the Encyclopedia of Philosophy?

Whether or not these things can be proved by history or archaeology are unimportant, I believe they happened because Scripture says so.

Yes scripture shows that children were sacrificed to Molech in the valley of Hinnom but had you extended me the simple courtesy of actually reading my post you would have learned from Jewish sources who know what they are talking about.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]​

Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA
Jewish Encyclopedia Online
This is the reason Gehenna was used for "hell." Not all that drivel you get from your favorite UR websites.

Gehenna represents the slaughter, captivity, and oppression of God's rebellious people in history and this is the extent of how Isaiah and Jeremiah saw it. Therefore, when Jesus speaks of unrighteous Jews being thrown into the "Gehenna of fire", he is not imagining eternal punishment in hell but is prophesying real, literal consequences of turning away from God... aka Jerusalem's eventual fall to Rome.

Nonsense! A patently false narrative concocted by UR-ites with an agenda. See above.
.....Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB, knows the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “aionios” and “kolasis?”
…..Note, in the EOB, Paul uses “αιωνιως/aionios,” in 1 Tim 1:17 synonymous with “αιδιος/aidios” in Rom 1:20, see below.

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
= = = = = = =
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
= = = = = = = =
1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [των αιωνων/tōn aiōnōn] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.
In 1 Tim 1:17 Paul not only uses "aionios" synonymous with "aidios," in Rom 1:20, but also defines it by pairing it with "immortal" in the same verse.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone chooses to consult the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.
You are free to reject all the credible, verifiable, historical evidence and continue to spread the false narrative you get from UR websites.

​