Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

[nolidad]

Aion is indeed age related, and in fact is also plural, thus ages of the ages.

The foundation of the adjective aionios, clearly defined by St. John is a quality of life, not time related.

There is one eternity, not two. When you get a wee moment please express how eternity is added to eternity?

Quality

Well if it is quality and not quantity of time , show me one translator who translated aionios as quality. It cannot mean time and quality!

And you still haven't shown why you belioeve Jesus lied when He said this:

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The Author did not say until or unless they believe in the after life- He did declare that they shall not see life!

Whoim should we believe, Jesus or you and that Thomson fella who wrote a magazine that could only get 200 subscribers to his false doctrine!

 

[nolidad]

ClementofA I assure you will have zero problem showing you massive amounts (mega) but you must pay attention.

Well if you or He wish to bury me with a blizzard of material so that I have to hunt for that one little place you both cling to- I am not interested.

 

[FineLinen]

Well if it is quality and not quantity of time , show me one translator who translated aionios as quality.

Noli, I can show you scholars of koine who know exactly what aionios means. You of course will never bother to read them so I will keep this simple for you.

The disciple who leaned on the Master's bosom defines exactly what aionios means in 9 glorious words.

"This IS aionios zoe that we may know You..."

 

[Saint Steven]

Jesus, when He died in His flesh here, went to Hades during the halfway point of this Creation and did preach to those who were there at that time, but this was to those who were only getting a second chance only because some of them really did not have much of a first chance before that being those who were previously only under the only the OT Law covenant and never got to hear about the Gospel of Grace, etc...

Since you are claiming "a second chance", there is NO REASON that it couldn't happen again. And PLENTY OF REASON that you could be wrong about it. Especially since your own doctrine probably doesn't allow for someone that has REJECTED Christ, which is what your claim of a second chance indicates. The only one who NEEDS a second chance is someone that MESSED UP their FIRST CHANCE.

 

[nolidad]

Jesus was referring to the situation at His time in the first century, not final destiny.

Bible versions don't say "few will EVER find it". This Greek Interliner says "finding":

Matthew 7:14 Interlinear: how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Young's Literal Translation
how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Matthew 7:14 is in the present tense, few "finding" it, speaking of that particular time, not of final destiny. Earlier in Matthew final destiny was already revealed re salvation:

639.

Well here is your post! Yes, it is in the present tense, but you misread what the present tense means here. A common mistake for one who forgets that the csase and mood and modiying words are not considered. Here it is a simple statement of fact. Not that there were just a few at that moment in time that are finding it.

And that still doesn't remove the damnation of John 3:36 when Jesus declared that unbelievers shall not see life- yet you and others here say they will.

 

[Saint Steven]

By “eternal God” do you mean God for an age or the actual eternal God of Israel who is and always will be? I just want to clarify since we have different understandings of the word eternal.

You were quoting J. Preston Eby in my post.

I say, only God is eternal. NOTHING else.
And... God is NOT a part of his creation. He is the Creator. He created time and is not bound by it, or anything else in his creation. (including the laws of physics - or any science)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Now the eternal God has injected Himself into time.

 

[FineLinen]

And that still doesn't remove the damnation of John 3:36 when Jesus declared that unbelievers shall not see life- yet you and others here say they will.

You big silly: The Master of reconciliation does not stop with those wonderful words, but carries on.

“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

Will he succeed in the mission?

Duh

 

[Saint Steven]

You big silly: The Master of reconciliation does not stop with those wonderful words, but carries on.

“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

Will he succeed in the mission?

Duh

Which points back to the OP question:

Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

 

[Saint Steven]

The great revelation of the Scriptures is that this universe is governed by a throne and that throne is not in Moscow, it's not in London, it's not in Rome, and it's not in Washington - it's in heaven, the eternal dimension. Time is being governed by eternity, creatures are being governed by the Creator. There is a whole order of cosmic government that those of us who have had our eyes opened, our spirits quickened by His Spirit, raised up and made to sit together with Him in heavenly places, have beheld. And the first thing we saw was that ultimate reality sits upon a throne and governs mountains, governs hills, governs streams, governs insects, governs animals, governs things, governs man, governs time, governs history, governs creation, and governs the whole vast, unbounded universe!

God in Christ became man as well as God. God as man has tenses to His being: the yesterday of the past, the today of the present, the tomorrow of the future. This is not the eternal God, but the God who has dispensed of His eternity into time. "Jesus Christ the same - yesterday, today, and to the ages" (Heb. 13:8, literal). "And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come" (Rev. 4:8). Day and night do not exist in eternity - they fill up the whole of time. HE is praised and extolled both DAY AND NIGHT, this God who WAS, and IS, and IS TO COME, the God of the ages, the Architect of history, the Lord of time, the King of the universe, the Most High who "...lives for the ages, whose dominion is an age during dominion, and His kingdom is from generation to generation: and all the inhabitants - of the earth are reputed as nothing: and He does according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand, or say unto Him, What doest Thou?" (Dan. 4:34-35, literal & KJV).

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

 

[Neogaia777]

Since you are claiming "a second chance", there is NO REASON that it couldn't happen again. And PLENTY OF REASON that you could be wrong about it. Especially since your own doctrine probably doesn't allow for someone that has REJECTED Christ, which is what your claim of a second chance indicates. The only one who NEEDS a second chance is someone that MESSED UP their FIRST CHANCE.

I explained it, but you obviously don't care to listen, at the mid point during any creation, the messiah comes, and when He dies in the flesh, and "at that time", he goes to hades for three days and preaches to those there who were previously under and only knew law before that, etc, and some may get to go with Him when He would ascend into heaven, etc, and the only other time in time when that ever happens again is at the final judgement right before this creation ends and a whole new one is about to begin when not just they, but all who ever died and those still alive are all "resurrected" or are brought before judgement in the final judgment to all each one to all each be judged according to their works or deeds, each individually, etc, and then, some will go to an eternal Heaven, and some others to an eternal Lake of Fire after that, Hades is not the Lake of Fire, etc, but is part of this world of this creation (and ones following) (again) and this earth, etc...

Not that your going to listen though...

God Bless!

 

[nolidad]

The disobedient are under God's wrath. Yet even His wrath is to correct them:

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

Some more literal versions of John 3:36 read:

The Emphasized Bible (Rotherham) translates the verse, "He that believes on the Son hath life age-abiding; whereas he that yieldeth not unto the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God awaiteth him."

The Emphatic Diaglott (Wilson): "He believing into the Son has aionian life; but he disobeying the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God abides on him."

Young's Literal Translation: "He who is believing in the Son hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain on him."

John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life.

It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.

It does not deny that all will eventually believe & have their sins taken away. On the contrary the same writer already wrote two chapters before:

1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

In chapter 4 he writes:

39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him,
they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 3:36 does not say a person can only believe in this life time. Or that God's love runs out when a person dies.

The early church father, Origen, speaks of what is "after eonian life" (mistranslated in the KJV "eternal life"):

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

Journal of Analytic Theology

Because I have sinned against him,I will bear the Lord's WRATH, UNTIL he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness.(Micah 7:9)

AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…



Clearly it is "time limited". All were at one time "unbelievers" with the "wrath of God" on them. Yet many of those unbelievers became believers. These believers no longer have the "wrath of God" on them. There - was - a "time limit" to how long the "wrath of God" was on them. And likewise there was a "time limit" till those who "shall not see life" did in fact "see life".

Even apostates who had once believed are being sought by God for salvation & being corrected for their own good:

1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.…

Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":

(19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Once again you err because you do not differentiate Gods anger of the OT. There is no anger of God for His children in teh NT because His anger was appeased by Jesus.

For Gods Children (believers) He chastens them to learn. For the unbeliever there is no such chastening.

YOu forget that the good deed doers who knew of the Lord were rejected by jesus in Matt. 7;

Jesus never knew them! And they were commanded to depart.

And as for the account of Lazarus and the rich man- why was no repentance offered them in the place of torments? Was that not enough suffering to make them repent and allow them to move to Abrahams bosom? Why were they left behind when jesus ascended to heaven and took captivity captive? Couldn't they repent then?

You have created a whole doctrine of repentance in the lake of fire, by a lack of understanding the greek. 1 Cor. 15:22 The phrase "in Christ" with Paul is a technical term and means those who have accepted Christ.

You also forget:

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

You cannot find one passage that implies that once in the lake of fire one can repent and thus be pulled out!

Also as an aside I have a question.

If all are predestined to be saved - why does He make them forced to suffer for ages and ages in the lake of fire (Rev. 14) with no rest day nor night without rest? If the love of God doesn't change them, how do you know that the punishment of God for rejecting Christ will change them? Will some last for millions of years that way? If not why not? I guess you also believe that the fallen angels also can have repentance as the others do. Where is that found in SCripture? No implied verses, but a place where God said angels could repent.

 

[nolidad]

Noli, I can show you scholars of koine who know exactly what aionios means. You of course will never bother to read them so I will keep this simple for you.

The disciple who leaned on the Master's bosom defines exactly what aionios means in 9 glorious words.

"This IS aionios zoe that we may know You..."

Yep! never ending life- to know Jesus. Not some quality of life but a quantity of life- never ending.
See you can learn!

And you are wrong about me not looking at what they have to say. But they better have super powerful arguments against the massive body of evidence that declares aionios means time not quality both by scholars who learned greek and those who speak it naturally as I have shown you by greek dictionaries.

 

[nolidad]

Which points back to the OP question:

Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

He is the Savior of the World. YOu just ignore the qualifications for one to recieve the salvation He bought with His blood.

 

[Der Alte]

...

>ND>Well if it is quality and not quantity of time , show me one translator who translated aionios as quality. It cannot mean time and quality!
And you still haven't shown why you belioeve Jesus lied when He said this:
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
The Author did not say until or unless they believe in the after life- He did declare that they shall not see life!
Whoim should we believe, Jesus or you and that Thomson fella who wrote a magazine that could only get 200 subscribers to his false doctrine!<ND<

...

That is one of 9 verses where Jesus clearly defines "aionios" as "eternal."…..
Jesus used the word “aionios” 29 times, He never used “aionios” to refer to something mundane which cannot be eternal.

[1]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]​

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[2]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [ου μη/ou mé] [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

See note on ou mé at bottom. In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[3]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
[4] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.​

In the above two verses Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[5]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[6]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse Jesus contrasts aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[7]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus contrasts aionios with “shall never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.
[9]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiōna] see death."…..

● The double negative [ου μη/ou mé] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.
Word Studies in the New Testament, Marvin Vincent
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.[1]
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.​

 

[nolidad]

You big silly: The Master of reconciliation does not stop with those wonderful words, but carries on.

“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

Will he succeed in the mission?

Duh

Well you fail to look at the conditional (might), it is not WILL but could be or may be! And He has succeeded. For throughout the ages untold millions have been saved!

John 3:36 King James Version (KJV)
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Here is the absolute-SHALL NOT! IT is not might not or has to wait til they change their mind but they will not see life! Your universalism is an addition to the word of God that God didn't bother to write down.

Hebrews 9:27 King James Version (KJV)
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

But the bible according ot you says- well it is not the judgment, but just a judgment, for once they have roasted for awhile and feel bad, God will yank them out of the fire! Could take a day or could take billions of years, we don't know, but eventually they will change their mind, cuz it makes it easy to not have to weep and pray and plead with lost souls to recieve the one who paid for their sins before it is too late!

 

[ClementofA]

I have asked Universal Reconciliation-ites many times what makes a version "literal?"

​

It means it adheres more to a word for word rendering than, say, for example, a paraphrase version.

Why not do an internet search of "Literal vs idio[ma]tic translations"? Which leads to, to give several examples, stuff like this:

"Larson...describes a continuun ranging from the "very literal" through the "literal" the "modified literal", the "inconsistent mixture", the "near idiomatic", the "idiomatic"...to the "unduly free"..."literal" or "word for word" translation is usually understood to be an attempt to be "faithful" to the original."

(Teaching Translation and Interpreting 2: Insights, Aims, Visions : Papers ...edited by Cay Dollerup, Anne Lindegaard, Annette Lindegaard, p.152)

Teaching Translation and Interpreting 2

"...the debate over whether a literal or idiomatic translation was the better approach.

...Tuggy, David. 2003. “The literal-idiomatic Bible translation debate from the perspective of cognitive grammar.” In Kurt Feyaerts, ed., The Bible through metaphor and translation: a cognitive semantic perspective, pp. 239-288. Bern: Peter Lang, 2003."

The Biblia Hebraica Blog: Literal vs. Idiomatic Bible Translation Method

Here is an informative article showing how non literal, idio[ma]tic & deceptive the translation "forever and ever" is in the KJV, NIV and many other Bible versions:

Does "foreverS AND everS" Make Sense to You?

And here is a chart comparing examples of literal & idio[ma]tic renderings:

"Idiomatic or Idiotic?
ORIGINAL.......................................ENGLISHED.... STULTIFIED
[The Bible is the]............................book of books..book and book
[The Lord's Coming is the]....................day of days....day and day
shir eshirim..................................song of songs..song and song
qdsh equdshim.................................holy of holies.holy and holy
kurios kuridn.................................Lord of lords..Lord and lord
oasileus basileon..............................King of kings.King and king
aionos tdn aidnon............................ eon of eons....ever and ever (R.V.) throughout all ages, world without end. (A.V.)"

https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchab...ernal+Torment+or+Universal+Reconciliation.pdf

 

[nolidad]

>ND>Well if it is quality and not quantity of time , show me one translator who translated aionios as quality. It cannot mean time and quality!
And you still haven't shown why you belioeve Jesus lied when He said this:
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
The Author did not say until or unless they believe in the after life- He did declare that they shall not see life!
Whoim should we believe, Jesus or you and that Thomson fella who wrote a magazine that could only get 200 subscribers to his false doctrine!<ND<
That is one of 9 verses where Jesus clearly defines "aionios" as "eternal."…..
Jesus used the word “aionios” 29 times, He never used “aionios” to refer to something mundane which cannot be eternal.

[1]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]​

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[2]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [ου μη/ou mé] [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

See note on ou mé at bottom. In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[3]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
[4] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.​

In the above two verses Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[5]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[6]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse Jesus contrasts aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[7]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus contrasts aionios with “shall never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.
[9]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiōna] see death."…..

● The double negative [ου μη/ou mé] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.
Word Studies in the New Testament, Marvin Vincent
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.[1]
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.​

I have about reached the end of trying to show them the truth. They love their false teachers and those who try to squiggle things from the greek that aren't there. They want to run against the tide of truth.

Even the ancient writings they refer to , they do not even realize they were heretics and the church wrote numerous works against their false teaching. Many repented, many did not.

I feel it is time to move on and shake the dust off my feet. I shall pray for them according to Gods Word:

2 Timothy 2:25
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

 

[ClementofA]

Well here is your post! Yes, it is in the present tense, but you misread what the present tense means here. A common mistake for one who forgets that the csase and mood and modiying words are not considered. Here it is a simple statement of fact. Not that there were just a few at that moment in time that are finding it.

What are you trying to say? Do you have any Greek qualifications?

And that still doesn't remove the damnation of John 3:36 when Jesus declared that unbelievers shall not see life- yet you and others here say they will.

I already replied to you about this. Did you ignore it like most of what i've shared with you. Here it is again:

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:36

The disobedient are under God's wrath. Yet even His wrath is to correct them:

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

Some more literal versions of John 3:36 read:

The Emphasized Bible (Rotherham) translates the verse, "He that believes on the Son hath life age-abiding; whereas he that yieldeth not unto the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God awaiteth him."

The Emphatic Diaglott (Wilson): "He believing into the Son has aionian life; but he disobeying the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God abides on him."

Young's Literal Translation: "He who is believing in the Son hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain on him."

John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life.

It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.

It does not deny that all will eventually believe & have their sins taken away. On the contrary the same writer already wrote two chapters before:

1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

In chapter 4 he writes:

39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him,
they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 3:36 does not say a person can only believe in this life time. Or that God's love runs out when a person dies.

The early church father, Origen, speaks of what is "after eonian life" (mistranslated in the KJV "eternal life"):

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

Journal of Analytic Theology

Because I have sinned against him,I will bear the Lord's WRATH, UNTIL he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness.(Micah 7:9)

AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:36

How can the wrath of God abide (remain) on someone if it isn't already there? And the denial ("shall not see life") is not time limited. It is that the individual will not see life. Period.

Clearly it is "time limited". All were at one time "unbelievers" with the "wrath of God" on them. Yet many of those unbelievers became believers. These believers no longer have the "wrath of God" on them. There - was - a "time limit" to how long the "wrath of God" was on them. And likewise there was a "time limit" till those who "shall not see life" did in fact "see life".

Even apostates who had once believed are being sought by God for salvation & being corrected for their own good:

1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.…

Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":

(19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

 

[Der Alte]

I have about reached the end of trying to show them the truth. They love their false teachers and those who try to squiggle things from the greek that aren't there. They want to run against the tide of truth.
Even the ancient writings they refer to , they do not even realize they were heretics and the church wrote numerous works against their false teaching. Many repented, many did not.
I feel it is time to move on and shake the dust off my feet. I shall pray for them according to Gods Word:
2 Timothy 2:25
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

I have been at this forum for over 2 decades. I realized early on that hard core believers in heterodox religious groups are almost impossible to reach but I continue that I might reach some people on the fringe thinking about joining or quitting such groups. And I have had some success.

 

[Saint Steven]

... at the mid point during any creation, the messiah comes...

Hold the bus!
How did you come to that conclusion? What OTHER "creations" have had a "mid point" at which "the messiah comes"?