Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

[nolidad]

You gigantic silly!

If the Restitution of ta pavnte is faulty, the Author out of whom it flows has given us faulty indications of what He "cherishes".

From Him ta pavnte, through Him ta pavnte, unto Him ta pavnte.

The Author is not faulty, but you have believed faulty teachers. THE TEACHER has made it clear that not all will enter.

And you still have avoided answering the fact that because you believe aionios kolasis is only temprorary why you do not apply proper rules of grammar and acknowledge that aionios zoe is only temporary!

 

[nolidad]

What the anti universalists need is to prove it means eternal in any passage concerning postmortem punishment.

First read some of the posts you posted. Thjey are enormously guilty of pulling verses out of context and misapplying temporal cutting off as eternal cutting off.

aionios is translated by greeks as eternal or everlasting or without end as its normal definition. It secondary definition is an undefined time and that secondary becomes primary when the text demands it like the one you posted about Satan!

Once again if ainios kolasis is not everlasting then neither is aionios zoe in Mt. 25:46! YOu can't have it both ways no matter how you cut it!

Also you deny Jesus and call HIm a liar!

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Jesus diod not say only for a time! What you need to prove is that the Bible declares there is repentance after death.

Luke 16:

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Seems like the lost dead in the place of torments (hell) have no opportunity to repent and cross over to the paradise side of the underworld! HMM?

 

[nolidad]

Please read the post again, or for the first time. It's there.

Which post. You are not the only person or is this the only thread I respond on, so it is easy to miss a post here or there.

 

[FineLinen]

And you still have avoided answering the fact that because you believe aionios kolasis is only temprorary why you do not apply proper rules of grammar and acknowledge that aionios zoe is only temporary!

Aionios kolasis in not temporary: it is not a time word. Aionios zoe is also not a time word.

Again: The adjective aionios is rooted in the noun aion. It holds no scope beyond the root upon which it stands.

And again: The Apostle John defines aionios in 9 (nine) words > >

"This IS aionios zoe that we may know You.."

 

[FineLinen]

Which post. You are not the only person or is this the only thread I respond on, so it is easy to miss a post here or there.

Noli: there is very much (mega in koine) you do not miss. It is not here or there, it is everywhere!

 

[nolidad]

Aionios kolasis in not temporary: it is not a time word. Aionios zoe is also not a time word.

Again: The adjective aionios is rooted in the noun aion. It holds no scope beyond the root upon which it stands.

And again: The Apostle John defines aionios in 9 (nine) words > >

"This IS aionios zoe that we may know You.."

YOu really are silly!

Aion or aeon is a time word- it means an age!

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon



Strong's Number: 165 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
aion from the same as (104)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Aion 1:197,31
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ahee-ohn' Noun Masculine
Definition

1. for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2. the worlds, universe
3. period of time, age

NAS Word Usage - Total: 95
age 20, ages 6, ancient time 1, beginning of time 1, course 1, eternal 2, eternity 1, ever* 2, forever 27, forever and ever 20, forevermore 2, long ago 1, never* 1, old 1, time 1, world 7, worlds 1


I await your heady scholarship that shows this definition wrong!

 

[nolidad]

Noli: there is very much (mega in koine) you do not miss. It is not here or there, it is everywhere!

Well then you or Clement should have no problem showing me which post or posts show the biblical scholarship then.

 

[FineLinen]

YOu really are silly!

Aion or aeon is a time word- it means an age!

Aion is indeed age related, and in fact is also plural, thus ages of the ages.

The foundation of the adjective aionios, clearly defined by St. John is a quality of life, not time related.

There is one eternity, not two. When you get a wee moment please express how eternity is added to eternity?

Quality

 

[FineLinen]

Well then you or Clement should have no problem showing me which post or posts show the biblical scholarship then.

ClementofA I assure you will have zero problem showing you massive amounts (mega) but you must pay attention.

 

[Der Alte]

Aionios kolasis in not temporary: it is not a time word. Aionios zoe is also not a time word.
Again: The adjective aionios is rooted in the noun aion. It holds no scope beyond the root upon which it stands.
And again: The Apostle John defines aionios in 9 (nine) words > >
"This IS aionios zoe that we may know You.."

αἰώνιος (ία ③ pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod S 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod S 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις;/[eternal home] Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I b.c.] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248–50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109–28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12. κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod S 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2 (cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατος B 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod S 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3;PsSol PsSol 3:12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 [everlasting kingdom](ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.- Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv [1]
[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 33–34). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.​

And here is how Jesus defines "aionios."
In these 9 verses, Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.” Jesus used the word “aionios” 29 times, He never used “aionios” to refer to something mundane which cannot be eternal.

[1]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]​

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[2]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [ου μη/ou mé] [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

See note on ou mé at bottom. In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[3]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
[4] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.​

In the above two verses Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here by definition means eternal or everlasting life.

[5]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[6]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse Jesus contrasts aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[7]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus contrasts aionios with “shall never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[9]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiōna] see death."
…..According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent,
● The double negative [ου μη/ou mé] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.[1]
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.​

 

[Der Alte]

...

["ClementofA"]Origen, the Early Church Father, speaks a number of times of after "aionios (eternal) life", thereby making it finite in relation to a coming age or ages, such as, e.g.the millennial kingdom eon age. Christ also speaks of aionios life in the age to come (Mk.10:30; Lk.18:30). That age may be finite as Scripture often speaks of multiple future ages to come. Which would limit aionios there to that finite period.

...

Here you claim that Origen "speaks a number of times of 'after eternal life.'" Then you quote Origen.

(19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).
Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen

Where does Origen speak a number of times of "after eternal life?"in his commentary on the gospel of John?

Sorry, there is no mention of the word "definition" by Origen there who quoted Paul's words in Romans 2:7. Neither does Paul mention "definition".

Let us read how your fellow UR-ite uses the word "define."

Aionios kolasis in not temporary: it is not a time word. Aionios zoe is also not a time word.
Again: The adjective aionios is rooted in the noun aion. It holds no scope beyond the root upon which it stands.
And again: The Apostle John defines aionios in 9 (nine) words > >
"This IS aionios zoe that we may know You.."

Perhaps you should inform him that Jesus doesn't mention "defines."

 

[ClementofA]

The same irrelevant, specious objections as before. And OBTW I just described/defined your objections with 2 adjectives and I didn't use the words "define" or "describe." In case you do know it or refuse to accept it that is the way language works.

That's not a definition. I'd suggest studying the difference between "describe" & "define":

Difference Between Define and Describe

What you've alleged to find in your posts is neither of the two.

Does saying "The creature had a tail, 4 legs & a head" define an elephant? No. It describes in part what might be an elephant, or a large number of other creatures. Here is a proper definition of an elephant: Definition of ELEPHANT

"The king of the underworld is immortal, cute, a killer, etc". To use your type of faulty reasoning/logic, since "immortal" is paired with "cute", cute must logically be defined as eternal. Wrong. And the king must be eternally cute. Wrong. And because immortal is paired with killer, the king must be eternally killing for all eternity. Wrong. And killer must be defined as eternal. Wrong.

In your post you committed the same error, saying: "Here Origen defines "aionios" as "eternal" by pairing it with "immortality." ". Same idea as my example above with the king of the underworld. Faulty logic. Faulty reasoning. Hence an unproven, unwarranted assumption.

Here is a real life example. In the early '60s I was speaking to someone in German. She used a word that I didn't understand "beinahe" pronounce by-nah-eh. I told her I did not understand she said "Es ist noch nicht elf uhr aber beinahe elf uhr." "It is not yet eleven o'clock but blank eleven o'clock." I understood that "beinahe" meant "almost." She defined the word "beinahe" but she did not say "This is the definition."

She didn't define any word. You just luckily guessed the meaning, like doing a crossword puzzle. Your guess could have been wrong. What if beinahe meant "one hour before" or many other possibilities. What if she was a crazy person & the meaning of beinahe was "past".

Merriam-Webster Dictionary Definition of define
transitive verb
1a: to determine or identify the essential qualities or meaning of whatever defines us as human
b: to discover and set forth the meaning of (something, such as a word)how the dictionary defines "grotesque"


So one does not have to say this is the definition or I am defining for a descriptive statement to be a definition.

​

Nobody said it did. Yet nothing you posted met the above criteria or said anything like "this is that" or "aionios is immortal" etc. All you had was making stuff up out of thin air. No rational, logical argument. No scholar who agrees with you.

​

Let me know if you want to provide a reasoned, rational objection to my post other than "I'm right and you're wrong. Am too! Nuh huh."

If you didn't find any "reasoned, rational objection to my post other than "I'm right and you're wrong", then you didn't read or didn't understand it.

Your post repeatedly assumed a "contrast" somehow gave you a "definition". (Yet you never state how). That's like saying a sentence with a contrast between "eonian life" & "death" in it proves that "eonian" means "eternal". That's the level of your logic in your post. You assume as proven what you have failed to prove.

 

[ClementofA]

Which post. You are not the only person or is this the only thread I respond on, so it is easy to miss a post here or there.

639.

 

[ClementofA]

First read some of the posts you posted. Thjey are enormously guilty of pulling verses out of context and misapplying temporal cutting off as eternal cutting off.

aionios is translated by greeks as eternal or everlasting or without end as its normal definition. It secondary definition is an undefined time and that secondary becomes primary when the text demands it like the one you posted about Satan!

Once again if ainios kolasis is not everlasting then neither is aionios zoe in Mt. 25:46! YOu can't have it both ways no matter how you cut it!

Also you deny Jesus and call HIm a liar!

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Jesus diod not say only for a time! What you need to prove is that the Bible declares there is repentance after death.

The disobedient are under God's wrath. Yet even His wrath is to correct them:

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

Some more literal versions of John 3:36 read:

The Emphasized Bible (Rotherham) translates the verse, "He that believes on the Son hath life age-abiding; whereas he that yieldeth not unto the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God awaiteth him."

The Emphatic Diaglott (Wilson): "He believing into the Son has aionian life; but he disobeying the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God abides on him."

Young's Literal Translation: "He who is believing in the Son hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain on him."

John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life.

It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.

It does not deny that all will eventually believe & have their sins taken away. On the contrary the same writer already wrote two chapters before:

1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

In chapter 4 he writes:

39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him,
they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 3:36 does not say a person can only believe in this life time. Or that God's love runs out when a person dies.

The early church father, Origen, speaks of what is "after eonian life" (mistranslated in the KJV "eternal life"):

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

Journal of Analytic Theology

Because I have sinned against him,I will bear the Lord's WRATH, UNTIL he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness.(Micah 7:9)

AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:36

How can the wrath of God abide (remain) on someone if it isn't already there? And the denial ("shall not see life") is not time limited. It is that the individual will not see life. Period.

Clearly it is "time limited". All were at one time "unbelievers" with the "wrath of God" on them. Yet many of those unbelievers became believers. These believers no longer have the "wrath of God" on them. There - was - a "time limit" to how long the "wrath of God" was on them. And likewise there was a "time limit" till those who "shall not see life" did in fact "see life".

Even apostates who had once believed are being sought by God for salvation & being corrected for their own good:

1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.…

Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":

(19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

 

[ClementofA]

Luke 16:

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Seems like the lost dead in the place of torments (hell) have no opportunity to repent and cross over to the paradise side of the underworld! HMM?

The story applies that chasm to Hades & Lazarus' location, while people are there, not to after they get out of Hades. Neither does the story say the chasm is eternal or can never be destroyed or removed. It only applies as a barrier between Hades & Lazarus' location, not to other realms outside of those, such as the lake of fire & the new Jerusalem. In fact, we are told that the gates into the holy city are always open & never shut.

" "So even if we made the mistake of trying to extract from the details of this parable a position on the issue of whether there will be further chances, there still wouldn’t be much cause for taking this passage as supporting the doctrine of no further chances with any force at all. For as long as the [one] who believes in further chances sensibly allows for the possibility that, while punishment is occurring, those suffering from it can’t just end it any time they want, she can make perfectly good sense of the words this parable puts into the mouth of Father Abraham. After all, if a road has been covered with deep enough snow drifts, we’ll tell someone who must drive on that stretch of road to get to where we are, “You cannot cross over from there to us.” We’ll say this quite properly and truthfully, even if we know full well that the road will be cleared in a few days, or that, in a great enough emergency, a helicopter could be used to get across to us even today, if, say, we’re at a hospital. [But doesn’t that show that there is a sense, then, in which they can cross over to us? Yes, there’s a perfectly good sense in which they can, and a perfectly good sense in which they cannot. For enlightening and accessible explanations of the meaning of “can” and related words, I recommend Angelica Kratzer’s “What ‘Must’ and ‘Can’ Must and Can Mean” (Linguistics and Philosophy 1 (1977): pp. 337-355) and example 6 (“Relative Modality”) of David Lewis’s “Scorekeeping in a Language Game” (Journal of Philosophical Logic 8 (1979): pp. 339-359.]"

Tom Talbott said:

"As for the unbridgeable chasm of which Jesus spoke in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, not one word in this parable, even if taken as literal history, as some do take it, implies that the chasm between Hades and Abraham’s bosom will remain unbridgeable forever. Do not Christians believe that the cross has already guaranteed the ultimate destruction of sin and death, where the “last enemy to be destroyed,” as we have already noted, “is death” itself? When 1 Peter 3:19 depicts Jesus as preaching to the spirits in prison (or those who were disobedient in the days of Noah) and 1 Peter 4:6 also depicts him as preaching the gospel to the dead, do these texts not illustrate perfectly the view of Elhanan Winchester,13 who wrote: “I believe, that Jesus Christ was not only able to pass, but that he actually did pass that gulph, which was impassable to all men but not to him”?14 Even if one should take the details of this parable more literally than one should, in other words, one can still view the Cross as the means whereby Jesus Christ has bridged this hitherto unbridgeable gulf. By flinging himself into the chasm between the dead and the living and by building a bridge over it, Jesus thus brought his message of repentance and forgiveness to all people, including those in Hades, which is the abode of the dead."

Even of the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) it is not stated how long his torments would last while there. Or denied that they could end while still there. Nor is it denied he could be saved while still in Hades. The rich man's Saviour is in Hades:

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol = Hades), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)

The rich man is called "son" (literally, "child") :

Lk.16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things

"Here, too, was one who, even in Hades, was recognized as being, now more truly than he had been in his life, a “child” or “son of Abraham.” (Comp. Luke 19:9.) The word used is the same, in its tone of pity and tenderness, as that which the father used to the elder son in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:31), which our Lord addressed to the man sick of the palsy (Matthew 9:2), or to His own disciples (John 13:33)." Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

The rich man in Hades is receiving the Word of Truth from Abraham. If not to lead those there to repentance & salvation, why would anyone in Hades be receiving such truths.

When it is implied that the rich man is where he is due to his lack of compassion for his fellow man, in particular Lazarus, he responds positively by turning his attention from himself to his brethren still alive & requests that they be warned about Hades. Is the rich man turning from his selfishness & showing concern for others?

The story speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

The duration, nature, intensity & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.

In Rev.20:11-15 those in Hades get out of Hades, so Hades (Lk.16:19-31) is not a place of unending torments. Assuming the parable's story is even to be taken literally.

 

[ClementofA]

αἰώνιος (ία ③ pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod S 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod S 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις;/[eternal home] Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I b.c.] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248–50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109–28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12. κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod S 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2 (cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατος B 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod S 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3;PsSol PsSol 3:12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 [everlasting kingdom](ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.- Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv [1]
[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 33–34). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.​

The author of BDAG provides no argument, proof or explanation why he classified aionios in Matthew 25:46 under "a period of unending duration, without end". His first definition of aionios is "pert. to a long period of time". Why didn't he classify aionios in Matthew 25:46 under that definition? He doesn't say.

If early church universalists agreed with BDAG re Matthew 25:46 would they have been universalists? Evidently they do not agree with BDAG re aionios in Matthew 25:46. Unlike the author of BDAG, many of them were native born Koine Greek speakers in a Koine Greek speaking society. Some were also Koine Greek scholars. Yet BDAG's author thinks he knows better than them who were within a few hundreds years of Christ's death?

Furthermore, why does BDAG ignore their writings as well as all of the following examples of how aionios was used in ancient Koine Greek:

Two Questions

What were the theological biases of the author of BDAG? Did his biases influence him to leave out all of those uses of aionios? Or was he ignorant of them? Was he influenced to follow blindly conclusions of his predecessors? Or to follow the opinions that would lead to selling more copies of his book? What - spirit - was controlling this man?

Why did the author of BDAG also reject the conclusions of many other modern scholars such as Moulton & Milligan who state:

"In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance...or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Cæsar’s life."
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

 

[Der Alte]

...

...

Your post repeatedly assumed a "contrast" somehow gave you a "definition". (Yet you never state how). That's like saying a sentence with a contrast between "eonian life" & "death" in it proves that "eonian" means "eternal". That's the level of your logic in your post. You assume as proven what you have failed to prove.

If something is not up it is down. That is a contrast. If something is open it is not closed. Another contrast. If something/someone is not alive it is dead. Yet another contrast.
You make too many assumptions. In none of the verses I quoted does it ever state that death is temporary.
You claim I have failed to prove what I stated. You have failed to prove "death" is not permanent.

 

[ClementofA]

If something is not up it is down. That is a contrast. If something is open it is not closed. Another contrast. If something/someone is not alive it is dead. Yet another contrast.

Sure. Yet none of your alleged definitions came anywhere near to such examples. If they were like that we wouldn't be having this discussion. And many scholars would have pointed it out. As it stands it's just your unscholarly opinion with not a single scholar quoted to back you up. Epic fail.

You make too many assumptions. In none of the verses I quoted does it ever state that death is temporary.

They didn't need to to debunk your faulty "definition".

You claim I have failed to prove what I stated. You have failed to prove "death" is not permanent.

Death shall be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

-----------------------------------------------


One thing God has spoken, two things I have heard: “Power belongs to you, God, and with you, Lord, is unfailing love”; Psalm 62:11b-12a

"The simplest way to know if someone is preaching the gospel of grace is to evaluate whether the teaching glorifies our Lord Jesus."

Love Omnipotent loves you more than you can imagine!

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

 

[ClementofA]

Aion or aeon is a time word- it means an age!

Sure, though some scholars think aionios refers to quality more than time, or is entirely qualitative as per the verse FL quoted.

Aion is used twice in the plural form in the phrase "ages of the ages" which is often erroneously translated "forever and ever", which is self contradictory nonsense.

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

 

[Neogaia777]

Is this what the Bible teaches?

Don't worry, if you go to Hell, it will not be that bad, and you'll only be taught obedience there, and you will still eventually go to and get to be in Heaven anyway, so it won't really be that bad, and the decision doesn't really need to be made here, since He is a God of such great and never ending and great abounding Love and all, etc, etc, ect, it's not that imporatant and not really all that bad if you don't make the decision to be saved now or here, etc, as it does not really have any everlasting consequences anyway, etc, so don't really be worried or concern yourself too much with it ok, cause God doesn't want you to do that anyway, being such a great God of Love and all, etc, etc, etc, kay sera sera, all is sunshine and flowers and rainbows and lollypops, etc, only that part is forever though, etc, God being such a great God of Love and all, etc.

No, that is not what the Bible teaches, it teaches that the decision has to be made here, and that it most certainly does have everlasting and eternal consequences that cannot be changed after that, or after this, etc, and if we are not teaching people this (truth) and warning them about it, then we are not teaching them the truth of the Bible and are doing them a great great diservice and are promoting a very very false God, etc, one that is of our own idea and making etc, and we ourselves could wind up in Hell for that, etc, and/as that is also what the Bible also says and actually teaches also, etc.

I've reconciled this without Him being a monster, but just because the rest of you can't, does not mean you should be spreading a false God or promoting false truth and not warning people about this just because you can't, etc. Cause in my opinion you should maybe wind up in Hell for that, etc.

God Bless!