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Benoni

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I don't think a literal flesh and blood lion and flesh and blood lamb is being discussed. I believe the peace that passes understanding occurs when we are reconnected to God and all emnity between us and God and between each of us with the other humans is erased is being protrayed.
When Adam fell all creation fell with him; including animals. No I do not believe they will be flesh and blood; but I do believe they will have a new nature; (Lion’s do not lay down with lambs); but a higher nature then a flesh and blood animal. They were in the Garden of Eden before the fall; I see no reason these beautiful creatures are not part of God’s plan for the ages; Adam gave the animals their names.

Gen. 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. 20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that[i] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

I understand Romans 8 is speaking about mankind; but I also believe it is addressing the animals as well as every plant and all of the earth.
 
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Benoni

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Yes and I see the idea that like Adam we all sin and kill our own souls but in Christ we all have the opportunity to turn to righteousness and let Christ make us alive again spiritually. I don't think this passage is talking about physical death and physical life at all.
1 Corinthians 15:21
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

We all died in Adam; dead in trespasses and sin. We cannot see, hear, touch, taste or feel God spiritually because we are as dead as a corpse spiritually. Our Father Adam sinned; it is not my sin nature; I was born with it; I inherited it; it was my Great; great; great…….. Grandfather Adam who passed on this dead sinful nature to all of us.

That is why Jesus died; His death covered my sins; your sins; the whole world’s sin. Is the blood of the lamb not greater then the sin of Adam; God reversed the whole sin sick world with the death of His son. Sure I have a sin nature; I was born with it and so was every son and daughter of Adam sense Cain. Zombies spiritually speaking is my understanding; but however you want to look at it dead is dead.

It does not say we “have an opportunity to turn righteous”; it says “so in Christ shall all be made alive” I understand this does not fit a lot of religious doctrine; but I will not add or take away from the context of this verse. It was written that way for a purpose.
 
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Warship

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Kimberlyann,

The fire talk in the bible is adopted from religions previous to judaism, such as heathenism. Also influenced by contemporaneous religions like Zoroasterianism. BAsically remnants of earlier fire worship.

The jews adopted this symbology to meet their ends. The flame represents purity. This fire consumes your sins so all impurities are washed away....God cannot abide being in the presence of sin so one must clensed for one to be closer to his presence.

The lake of fire and brimstone are the coals (or impure matter or sin symbolically) that are consumed by the fire.

To be eternally in this brimstone means never becoming one with the purity of the flame, forever remaining in a sinful state outside the presence of God.

The is no word for hell in the bible....only Ghenna...which is a dump outside of Jerusalem where trash (and sometimes bodies) was burned.
 
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katallasso

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Kimberlyann,

The fire talk in the bible is adopted from religions previous to judaism, such as heathenism. Also influenced by contemporaneous religions like Zoroasterianism. BAsically remnants of earlier fire worship.

The jews adopted this symbology to meet their ends. The flame represents purity. This fire consumes your sins so all impurities are washed away....God cannot abide being in the presence of sin so one must clensed for one to be closer to his presence.

The lake of fire and brimstone are the coals (or impure matter or sin symbolically) that are consumed by the fire.

To be eternally in this brimstone means never becoming one with the purity of the flame, forever remaining in a sinful state outside the presence of God.

The is no word for hell in the bible....only Ghenna...which is a dump outside of Jerusalem where trash (and sometimes bodies) was burned.

Good post....except for the "forever remaining in a sinful state outside the presence of God" part. The word there should be "age-abiding".

Our God is a consuming fire and will consume all sin and reconcile His creation to Himself. If there is a coal left then that which is in the LOF is not consumed.

kat
 
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Kimberlyann

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Kimberlyann,

The fire talk in the bible is adopted from religions previous to judaism, such as heathenism. Also influenced by contemporaneous religions like Zoroasterianism. BAsically remnants of earlier fire worship.

The jews adopted this symbology to meet their ends. The flame represents purity. This fire consumes your sins so all impurities are washed away....God cannot abide being in the presence of sin so one must clensed for one to be closer to his presence.

The lake of fire and brimstone are the coals (or impure matter or sin symbolically) that are consumed by the fire.

To be eternally in this brimstone means never becoming one with the purity of the flame, forever remaining in a sinful state outside the presence of God.

The is no word for hell in the bible....only Ghenna...which is a dump outside of Jerusalem where trash (and sometimes bodies) was burned.


But in Psalms 139:8 we read, If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there. So how can we ever be outside of the presence of God? Isn't God omnipresent?
 
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Benoni

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To be eternally in this brimstone means never becoming one with the purity of the flame, forever remaining in a sinful state outside the presence of God.


Brimstone is sulfur and was use by the Greek as a way of purifying their heathen temples during the time when the NT was written. To remain in a sinful state outside of the presence of God; I cannot comprehend? Is not God all knowing; we are always in His presence.
Fire purifies precious metals; Gold (Devine life); Silver (redemption); and even brass (judgment). Yes it will burn up the wood hay and stubble; but even that is changed to smoke.
 
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elman

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We all died in Adam; dead in trespasses and sin. We cannot see, hear, touch, taste or feel God spiritually because we are as dead as a corpse spiritually. Our Father Adam sinned; it is not my sin nature; I was born with it; I inherited it; it was my Great; great; great…….. Grandfather Adam who passed on this dead sinful nature to all of us.
I don't see scripture teaching this. This theology dreamed up by men. It is misinterpretation of scripture. Ezekiel 18 says that after we kill our soul with our own sin(note our soul was not killed by Adam's sin) we can turn to righteousness and live again. We are not born in sin. We are only guilty of sin when we sin, not when our father sins.

That is why Jesus died; His death covered my sins; your sins; the whole world’s sin. Is the blood of the lamb not greater then the sin of Adam; God reversed the whole sin sick world with the death of His son. Sure I have a sin nature; I was born with it and so was every son and daughter of Adam sense Cain. Zombies spiritually speaking is my understanding; but however you want to look at it dead is dead.
Yes dead us dead but being dead spiritually does not mean we are unable to turn to righteouness and live. Ez 18

It does not say we “have an opportunity to turn righteous”; it says “so in Christ shall all be made alive” I understand this does not fit a lot of religious doctrine; but I will not add or take away from the context of this verse. It was written that way for a purpose.
Ezek 18:20-24
20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
(from New International Version)
 
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Benoni

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I am not sure where you are coming from; are you trying to say man is responsible for his sin?

Consider the matter of your own physical birth. What did you have to do with it? Were not consulted in the matter; you were absolutely passive in it; you had nothing whatsoever to do with it. You did not have a choice as to where or when you would be born. You had no choice as to what kind of a home or family you would be born into. You were not even consulted. The sovereign Lord God of heaven and earth brought you into existence and ordained your path without so much a how-do-you-feel-about-it. And you had no choice as to how you would be born, in what condition or state of being. The Psalmist declared, "Behold, I was brought forth in a state of iniquity; my mother was sinful who conceived me and 1, too, am sinful" (Ps. 51:5, Amplified). Well did the apostle Paul write . ..... by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned ... for by one man's disobedience many were made sinners" (Rom. 5:12,19).

If any man had brought himself into being, then we can conceive of the possibility of his having something to say about his condition and destiny. But mankind had absolutely nothing whatever to do with his coming into this world. It was the choice of God. God chose to bring this creature into existence because He had a definite plan for him in His creative purposes in the whole universe.

It was God who formed man of the dust of the ground. It was God who breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. It was God who placed man in the Garden of Eden. It was God who planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the midst of the Garden. It was God who gave the law that man should neither touch this tree nor eat of it. And it was God who made the serpent and put him in the Garden and sent him along one beautiful day to tempt the man. It was GOD!


Even if Adam was a free moral agent, God is responsible for what happened in the Garden, for whatever a free moral agent may do, He is responsible for it who made him a free moral agent. If God made man a free moral agent, then God created within man the propensities for either good or evil which determined his choices. If God made man a free moral agent, He knew beforehand what the result would be, and hence is just as responsible for the consequences of the acts of that free moral agent as He would be for the act of an irresponsible machine that He had made.

Man's free moral agency, even if it were true, would by no means clear God from the responsibility of his acts since God is his Creator and has made him in the first place just what he is, well knowing what the result would be. If God's will is ever thwarted, then He is not almighty. If His will is thwarted, then His plans must be changed, and hence He is not all-wise and immutable. If His will is never thwarted, then all things are in accordance with His will and He is the architect of all things as they exist. If He is all-wise and all-good, then all things, existing according to His will, must be working toward some wise and wonderful end!


"What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice on God's part? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then God's gift is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. It depends not one ones own willingness ... but on God's having mercy on him. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in dealing with you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over. So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens--makes stubborn and unyielding of heart--whomever He wills.

Why then does He still find fault and blame us for sinning? For who can resist and withstand His will? But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus? Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?" (Rom. 9:14-21, Amplified).


It is a wicked and cruel lie to say that the unregenerated man is a "free moral agent." He is no such thing! He is a slave. "We know that the Law is spiritual; but I am a creature of the flesh (carnal), having been SOLD INTO SLAVERY UNDER THE CONTROL OF SIN" (Rom. 7:14, Amplified). The unregenerate man is a slave to sin. He is a slave to Satan. He is a slave of his own carnal mind and deceitfully wicked heart. He is a slave of his own vile passions. How can a man who is a slave and a captive of the devil be a "free moral agent"? Impossible!

Adam sold us out. Adam gave us no choice in bringing his progeny under the workings of iniquity. When Adam went into sin, he did not consult with any one of us as to our desire concerning anything he did. None of us had any power or any choice in the condition in which we entered this world. WE WERE NOT SINNERS BY CHOICE, as we have erroneously been told.

We are "born in sin, and shapened in iniquity," with the carnal nature in us from the moment we leave the womb. Being "dead in trespasses and sins," dead to God, dead to truth, dead to purity, dead to reality, the Adamic race was no longer capable of making a choice or decision for salvation. How truly the apostle wrote in Eph. 2:2-3, "And you ... were dead in trespasses and sins: wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience; among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and WERE BY N-A-T-U-R-E THE CHILDREN OF WRATH, even as others."


The message is clear - we were not sinners by choice. We were sinners by NATURE! We were BORN INTO this condition, simply because the first man, Adam, put us all into slavery to sin. We had nothing to say about it. We did not in any way will it, consent to it, or choose it, for we were born into it. And we were not born free moral agents. We were born slaves!


There is no fact more self-evident than the fact of the total depravity of man, or his TOTAL INABILITY to deliver himself from bondage to sin, and this is rooted in the fact that his human spirit is dead from birth. Total depravity means that man in his natural state is incapable of doing anything or desiring anything pleasing to God. Until our spirit is quickened by HIS SPIRIT we are slaves of the flesh and the devil and are enemies to God.

When man insists that he still has a "spark" of divine good resident in his heart the Bible says, "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Who can know it?" (Jer. 17:9). When man contends that he is a free moral agent and can accept or reject the Lord by his own volition, the Word of God contradicts him, declaring, "There is none righteous, no not one! There is none that understandeth, there is N-0-N-E THAT SEEKETH after God" (Rom. 3:10-11).


Man is totally depraved in the sense that everything about his nature is in rebellion against God. Man is loyal to the god of darkness and loves darkness rather than The Light. His will is, therefore, not at all "free". It is a slave to the flesh. Total depravity means that man, of his own free will," will NEVER MAKE A DECISION FOR CHRIST. Our blessed Lord bluntly says, "Ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life" (Jn. 5:40).

Why does our Lord say this? Because the will of the unregenerate man is bound by the bands of sin and death to the god of the spiritually dead. Total depravity means that the natural man is completely incapable of discerning Truth. In fact, unregenerate man thinks of the things of God as being ridiculous!

"The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him. Neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (I Cor. 2:14). Man cannot see or know the things which relate to the Kingdom of God, without being regenerated first by the Holy Spirit. A dead spirit perceives only the things of man and Satan. Hence the words of Jesus to Nicodemus: "Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Jn. 3:3). Unborn children do not see the light. Dead men do not see the light.


Unregenerate men cannot comprehend even that they should come to the Light. They are the unborn dead who know only darkness. They are totally depraved, wholly incapable of thinking, perceiving, or doing anything pleasing to God, UNTIL GOD SEES FIT TO GIVE THEM LIFE and understanding. Faith follows the giving of Life. The giving of Life is by the will of God. Notice the order: "God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath made us alive together with Christ (by grace are ye saved)" (Eph. 2:4-5). Man is not saved by some mythical act of his own _free will. He is saved by grace, the divine enablement of God who first gives him Life and then imparts faith in his heart as a free gift. Paul continues: "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the Gift of God. It is not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9).
 
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Warship

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But in Psalms 139:8 we read, If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there. So how can we ever be outside of the presence of God? Isn't God omnipresent?
Kimberlyann,

The psalms are poetry...and it is in that vein that I would read them. They are not discourses in doctrine.
This is akin to a love poem that says

"when I climb the highest mountains you are there, when I am lost in the lowest valleys you are in my heart"

He is talking about God being with him in a symbolic sense. This verse does not advocate omnipresence. That would be reading far too much into a simple poem that is trying to contrast two extremes...heaven and hell (or sheol as it is in hebrew).

Strong's concordance illustrates that the word translated hell in this verse (and the others where it is not Ghenna) is sheol. Sheol is the shadowy world of the dead in Jewish folklore, but not much is known about it.
Sheole is a mysterious place but not a place set aside for punishment(or hell as we would think of it).

Let me highlight some passages from my strong's concordance to demonstate....

Strong's #7585

Sheol is the abode of the dead.....or the underground cavern to which all the dead go......It was not understood to be a place of punishment, but simply the final resting place of all mankind...thus thought to be a land of no return...It was a place to be dreaded, not only because it meant the end of physical life on earth, but also because there was no praise of God there...yet they are still in a state of existence and within God's cognizance.

So God is only aware (cognizant) of them, and does not necessarily keep his presence with them.

This is not hell as the loaded word that we recognize in english today, to someone who spoke hebrew close to three thousand years ago...they would have a much different idea and image of the place being spoken of....and that idea would not include a lake of fire and brimstone.
 
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EchoPneuma

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Kimberlyann,

The psalms are poetry...and it is in that vein that I would read them. They are not discourses in doctrine.
This is akin to a love poem that says

"when I climb the highest mountains you are there, when I am lost in the lowest valleys you are in my heart"

He is talking about God being with him in a symbolic sense. This verse does not advocate omnipresence. That would be reading far too much into a simple poem that is trying to contrast two extremes...heaven and hell (or sheol as it is in hebrew).

Strong's concordance illustrates that the word translated hell in this verse (and the others where it is not Ghenna) is sheol. Sheol is the shadowy world of the dead in Jewish folklore, but not much is known about it.
Sheole is a mysterious place but not a place set aside for punishment(or hell as we would think of it).

Let me highlight some passages from my strong's concordance to demonstate....



So God is only aware (cognizant) of them, and does not necessarily keep his presence with them.

This is not hell as the loaded word that we recognize in english today, to someone who spoke hebrew close to three thousand years ago...they would have a much different idea and image of the place being spoken of....and that idea would not include a lake of fire and brimstone.


So you're saying God ISN'T omnipresent?

Is that what you're saying?

Even though the bible says that He fills the whole universe....and that NOTHING can separate us from the love of God.

Are you going to say that is "poetry" too?

Someone else on this forum said that pretty much every time the scriptures talk about "all" of mankind being saved that it was "hyperbole" and not literal....

Which, of course, is false....but it was that person's refuge so they didn't have to admit universal salvation was a truth.

Are you saying that the scriptures that talk about the omnipresence of God are only "poetry" or "hyperbole" so that you don't have to admit that God is omnipresent....even being in sheol, hades, Lake of Fire or wherever?

This seems an awfully convenient device to use when a person doesn't want to admit that what they are believing is wrong....in regards to all the scriptures that refute their doctrine, just say they are only "hyperbole" or "poetry" or "symbolism"....and not to be taken literally. A person can pretty much make the bible say whatever they want it to say in this manner....and make it NOT say what they want it to NOT say.
 
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Kimberlyann

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Kimberlyann,

The psalms are poetry...and it is in that vein that I would read them. They are not discourses in doctrine.
This is akin to a love poem that says

"when I climb the highest mountains you are there, when I am lost in the lowest valleys you are in my heart"

He is talking about God being with him in a symbolic sense. This verse does not advocate omnipresence. That would be reading far too much into a simple poem that is trying to contrast two extremes...heaven and hell (or sheol as it is in hebrew).

Strong's concordance illustrates that the word translated hell in this verse (and the others where it is not Ghenna) is sheol. Sheol is the shadowy world of the dead in Jewish folklore, but not much is known about it.
Sheole is a mysterious place but not a place set aside for punishment(or hell as we would think of it).

Let me highlight some passages from my strong's concordance to demonstate....



So God is only aware (cognizant) of them, and does not necessarily keep his presence with them.

This is not hell as the loaded word that we recognize in english today, to someone who spoke hebrew close to three thousand years ago...they would have a much different idea and image of the place being spoken of....and that idea would not include a lake of fire and brimstone.
Warship,

I agree with you about the meaning of hell in Psalms. But I don't agree with anything else. I believe God is everywhere all the time.
 
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Warship

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So you're saying God ISN'T omnipresent?

Is that what you're saying?

Even though the bible says that He fills the whole universe....and that NOTHING can separate us from the love of God.

Are you going to say that is "poetry" too?

Someone else on this forum said that pretty much every time the scriptures talk about "all" of mankind being saved that it was "hyperbole" and not literal....

Which, of course, is false....but it was that person's refuge so they didn't have to admit universal salvation was a truth.

Are you saying that the scriptures that talk about the omnipresence of God are only "poetry" or "hyperbole" so that you don't have to admit that God is omnipresent....even being in sheol, hades, Lake of Fire or wherever?

This seems an awfully convenient device to use when a person doesn't want to admit that what they are believing is wrong....in regards to all the scriptures that refute their doctrine, just say they are only "hyperbole" or "poetry" or "symbolism"....and not to be taken literally. A person can pretty much make the bible say whatever they want it to say in this manner....and make it NOT say what they want it to NOT say.
Would you mind listing a few of those scriptures which you say are in such abundance.

No where in the bible does it say God fills the whole universe.
Please point out this scripture to me.

Or will you convienently hide behind rhetoric without any evidence as you did with your last post.

I said psalms is poetry and nothing else.... you cannot put words in my mouth. Any scholar would agree with me...Psalms is poetry and not discourses on doctrine.
 
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EchoPneuma

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Would you mind listing a few of those scriptures which you say are in such abundance.

No where in the bible does it say God fills the whole universe.
Please point out this scripture to me.

Before you say it's not there....you should do some research.;)

Ephesians 4:10 (NIV)
He (Jesus) who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill ALL THINGS.

If Jesus has filled ALL THINGS by ascending HIGHER than all the heavens....then He fills the UNIVERSE....and all that exist outside of the universe if there is anything. He fills EVERYTHING. He is EVERYWHERE...and that includes hades, hell or the Lake of Fire. That is why it says in Revelation that the beast and false prophet who are in the Lake of Fire, are tormented in the PRESENCE of the Lamb. Because He is there TOO.


Or will you convienently hide behind rhetoric without any evidence as you did with your last post.

You'e the one who gave no evidence except to say "it's poetry"....as if that means it isn't true. Are you saying that NONE of the doctrinal statements that David says in Psalms are to be taken as truth because it's in a poetry book?? How about "You are my refuge and my fortress, my God in whom I trust. Surely you will save me from deadly pestilence and deliver me."

Is that just poetry or is it true that GOd is a refuge to be trusted and will save and deliver us"?

Just because something is poetry DOES NOT mean that it isn't a true spiritual statement about God.

If David said, in a poem, that even if he makes his bed in Sheol, that God is there....then it's true....otherwise David is incorporating untruths about God into his poetry that is IN PRAISE OF GOD......

Now why would he do that?

I said psalms is poetry and nothing else.... you cannot put words in my mouth. Any scholar would agree with me...Psalms is poetry and not discourses on doctrine.


I don't care what "scholars" say. Just because Psalms is considered "poetry" doesn't mean the things that are incorporated into those poems aren't true. Otherwise, just throw the whole book of Psalms out the window as far as it telling us anything about the nature of God or truth about Him. It's nothing more than Hemingway or Steinbeck.


"The Lord is my light and my salvation, whom shall I fear? The Lord is the stronghold of my life, of whom shall I be afraid"?

Is that just "poetry" and not to be taken as truth?

Psalm 19:7-9




7 The law of the LORD is perfect,
reviving the soul.
The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy,
making wise the simple.

8 The precepts of the LORD are right,
giving joy to the heart.
The commands of the LORD are radiant,
giving light to the eyes.

9 The fear of the LORD is pure,
enduring forever.
The ordinances of the LORD are sure
and altogether righteous.

JUST POETRY??? Or are these things TRUE?
 
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elman

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I am not sure where you are coming from; are you trying to say man is responsible for his sin?

Consider the matter of your own physical birth. What did you have to do with it? Were not consulted in the matter; you were absolutely passive in it; you had nothing whatsoever to do with it. You did not have a choice as to where or when you would be born. You had no choice as to what kind of a home or family you would be born into. You were not even consulted. The sovereign Lord God of heaven and earth brought you into existence and ordained your path without so much a how-do-you-feel-about-it. And you had no choice as to how you would be born, in what condition or state of being. The Psalmist declared, "Behold, I was brought forth in a state of iniquity; my mother was sinful who conceived me and 1, too, am sinful" (Ps. 51:5, Amplified). Well did the apostle Paul write . ..... by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned ... for by one man's disobedience many were made sinners" (Rom. 5:12,19).

If any man had brought himself into being, then we can conceive of the possibility of his having something to say about his condition and destiny. But mankind had absolutely nothing whatever to do with his coming into this world. It was the choice of God. God chose to bring this creature into existence because He had a definite plan for him in His creative purposes in the whole universe.

It was God who formed man of the dust of the ground. It was God who breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. It was God who placed man in the Garden of Eden. It was God who planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the midst of the Garden. It was God who gave the law that man should neither touch this tree nor eat of it. And it was God who made the serpent and put him in the Garden and sent him along one beautiful day to tempt the man. It was GOD!


Even if Adam was a free moral agent, God is responsible for what happened in the Garden, for whatever a free moral agent may do, He is responsible for it who made him a free moral agent. If God made man a free moral agent, then God created within man the propensities for either good or evil which determined his choices. If God made man a free moral agent, He knew beforehand what the result would be, and hence is just as responsible for the consequences of the acts of that free moral agent as He would be for the act of an irresponsible machine that He had made.

Man's free moral agency, even if it were true, would by no means clear God from the responsibility of his acts since God is his Creator and has made him in the first place just what he is, well knowing what the result would be. If God's will is ever thwarted, then He is not almighty. If His will is thwarted, then His plans must be changed, and hence He is not all-wise and immutable. If His will is never thwarted, then all things are in accordance with His will and He is the architect of all things as they exist. If He is all-wise and all-good, then all things, existing according to His will, must be working toward some wise and wonderful end!


"What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice on God's part? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then God's gift is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. It depends not one ones own willingness ... but on God's having mercy on him. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in dealing with you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over. So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens--makes stubborn and unyielding of heart--whomever He wills.

Why then does He still find fault and blame us for sinning? For who can resist and withstand His will? But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus? Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?" (Rom. 9:14-21, Amplified).


It is a wicked and cruel lie to say that the unregenerated man is a "free moral agent." He is no such thing! He is a slave. "We know that the Law is spiritual; but I am a creature of the flesh (carnal), having been SOLD INTO SLAVERY UNDER THE CONTROL OF SIN" (Rom. 7:14, Amplified). The unregenerate man is a slave to sin. He is a slave to Satan. He is a slave of his own carnal mind and deceitfully wicked heart. He is a slave of his own vile passions. How can a man who is a slave and a captive of the devil be a "free moral agent"? Impossible!

Adam sold us out. Adam gave us no choice in bringing his progeny under the workings of iniquity. When Adam went into sin, he did not consult with any one of us as to our desire concerning anything he did. None of us had any power or any choice in the condition in which we entered this world. WE WERE NOT SINNERS BY CHOICE, as we have erroneously been told.

We are "born in sin, and shapened in iniquity," with the carnal nature in us from the moment we leave the womb. Being "dead in trespasses and sins," dead to God, dead to truth, dead to purity, dead to reality, the Adamic race was no longer capable of making a choice or decision for salvation. How truly the apostle wrote in Eph. 2:2-3, "And you ... were dead in trespasses and sins: wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience; among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and WERE BY N-A-T-U-R-E THE CHILDREN OF WRATH, even as others."


The message is clear - we were not sinners by choice. We were sinners by NATURE! We were BORN INTO this condition, simply because the first man, Adam, put us all into slavery to sin. We had nothing to say about it. We did not in any way will it, consent to it, or choose it, for we were born into it. And we were not born free moral agents. We were born slaves!


There is no fact more self-evident than the fact of the total depravity of man, or his TOTAL INABILITY to deliver himself from bondage to sin, and this is rooted in the fact that his human spirit is dead from birth. Total depravity means that man in his natural state is incapable of doing anything or desiring anything pleasing to God. Until our spirit is quickened by HIS SPIRIT we are slaves of the flesh and the devil and are enemies to God.

When man insists that he still has a "spark" of divine good resident in his heart the Bible says, "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Who can know it?" (Jer. 17:9). When man contends that he is a free moral agent and can accept or reject the Lord by his own volition, the Word of God contradicts him, declaring, "There is none righteous, no not one! There is none that understandeth, there is N-0-N-E THAT SEEKETH after God" (Rom. 3:10-11).


Man is totally depraved in the sense that everything about his nature is in rebellion against God. Man is loyal to the god of darkness and loves darkness rather than The Light. His will is, therefore, not at all "free". It is a slave to the flesh. Total depravity means that man, of his own free will," will NEVER MAKE A DECISION FOR CHRIST. Our blessed Lord bluntly says, "Ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life" (Jn. 5:40).

Why does our Lord say this? Because the will of the unregenerate man is bound by the bands of sin and death to the god of the spiritually dead. Total depravity means that the natural man is completely incapable of discerning Truth. In fact, unregenerate man thinks of the things of God as being ridiculous!

"The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him. Neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (I Cor. 2:14). Man cannot see or know the things which relate to the Kingdom of God, without being regenerated first by the Holy Spirit. A dead spirit perceives only the things of man and Satan. Hence the words of Jesus to Nicodemus: "Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Jn. 3:3). Unborn children do not see the light. Dead men do not see the light.


Unregenerate men cannot comprehend even that they should come to the Light. They are the unborn dead who know only darkness. They are totally depraved, wholly incapable of thinking, perceiving, or doing anything pleasing to God, UNTIL GOD SEES FIT TO GIVE THEM LIFE and understanding. Faith follows the giving of Life. The giving of Life is by the will of God. Notice the order: "God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath made us alive together with Christ (by grace are ye saved)" (Eph. 2:4-5). Man is not saved by some mythical act of his own _free will. He is saved by grace, the divine enablement of God who first gives him Life and then imparts faith in his heart as a free gift. Paul continues: "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the Gift of God. It is not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9).

You ignored Ez 18. Being born was not my choice. Being unloving now is my choice. Sin is being unloving. I am not guilty of sin because you are unloving nor am I guilty of sin because my father was unloving. I am guilty only when I am unloving. That is sin and that is responsiblity. Jesus said in response to this that I should chose to be loving. If I do I obey Jesus and if I do not I am not obedieant to Jesus. It is a choice. Jesus stands ready to forgive me and pick me up when I fall if I want to be picked up and if I turn to being loving again. That is the grace without which none of us have any hope. This is the message that is clear.
 
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Benoni

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You ignored Ez 18. Being born was not my choice. Being unloving now is my choice. Sin is being unloving. I am not guilty of sin because you are unloving nor am I guilty of sin because my father was unloving. I am guilty only when I am unloving. That is sin and that is responsiblity. Jesus said in response to this that I should chose to be loving. If I do I obey Jesus and if I do not I am not obedieant to Jesus. It is a choice. Jesus stands ready to forgive me and pick me up when I fall if I want to be picked up and if I turn to being loving again. That is the grace without which none of us have any hope. This is the message that is clear.

You speak of grace at the end of your statement; but Ezekiel 18 is nothing but OT law and works of righteousness. I love the OT and quote it and use it all the time; but is not Ezekiel 18 speaking of sin without the NT grace. There are two types of sin; our sinful nature we are born with; as wll as the sin of missing the mark. We all miss the mark and we all our born with a sinful nature. Just because your soul dies; and is dead in trespasses and sin you still have a spirit; your spirit goes to God when you die physically. Your soul which is your mind and your intellect and reasoning must be changed to God’s understanding.

Besides no one is righteous; without the blood of Jesus; the righteousness in Ezekiel is works not grace; it is what you are doing; not who you know and believe in. That is how it worked under the law; but we are under grace. We are a slave to sin; and what ever sin I do have it is covered by the GRACE of God or His precious blood; not by works of righteousness. It is not a matter of stumbling; it is my human nature.

You do not obey Jesus by your choice; you obey him because you love Him and He has drawn/Gk dragged you.

John 6:44

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
 
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Kimberlyann

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Can you show me where it says this then?
And not in a metaphorical poem.


Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.


Jeremiah 23:23,24
Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.


Ephesians 2:22
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


Psalm 113:5
Who is like unto the Lord our God, who dwelleth on high.


Psalm 123:1
Unto thee lift I up mine eyes, O thou that dwellest in the heavens.


I Kings 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?


Matthew 6:9
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.


Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.


Romans 10:6,7
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? Or, Who shall descend into the deep?


Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
 
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RGL1

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I said psalms is poetry and nothing else.... you cannot put words in my mouth. Any scholar would agree with me...Psalms is poetry and not discourses on doctrine.

If it's only poetry and not doctrinal why does Paul use so much of the Psalms in one of the most doctrinal epistles in the NT as in Romans? :scratch:
 
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