Saved through Fire

[Kimberlyann]

I was telling you what I think as you requested.

Sorry, I misunderstood you.

 

[2ducklow]

2ducklow,

You didn't answer the above question.

of course some people go deeper into sin than others, but all of us are evil and only made righteous by faith in Jesus Christ. fearful and unbelieveing is not the correct term. all in the lake of fire will be unbelievers, some excessively evil peoplewill be fearful, and some less evil people will have no fear. the determining factor is degree of wickedness. the more wicked the hoter the flames.

 

[EchoPneuma]

None of that is in the bible.....

 

[Kimberlyann]

2ducklow,

So now, is there a thermostat in the lake of fire for each person? The really bad people get 4th degree burns and the not so bad only get 1st degree burns.

 

[Benoni]

Sorry I was out of the picture I need to go back and mention something Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego who were all in Baby lon (spelled it this way on purpose). Babylon speaks of religion. The only thing that was burnt was there bondages. What an awesome type of what spiritual fire can do.

Daniel 3:
20And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace.
25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

 

[Kimberlyann]

Thanks Benoni.

Good point.

 

[2ducklow]

None of that is in the bible.....

Matthew 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

 

[Benoni]

Isaiah 11:2


God's temple is within us; but the types and shadows of the OT help us to understand what God's is doing with His temple not built with human hands. This is just one small part of the temple; every post, column etc; is so pregnant with these hidden mysteies.

The lampstand was a piece of furniture that was in the Tabernacle in the wilderness as well as both temples. Like all the furniture in the temple there was always a much deeper and awesome meaning. I am just going to touch on a few thought I thought were interesting. So often God hides his glory from carnal man by types, shadows, parables, mysteries and hidden manna.


Lamp stand was made by beaten gold; that is the craftsman would literally beat the gold to desired shape. Gold is symbolic of divine life which takes trials and tribulations to accomplish.


The lamp had seven staffs attached to one staff; symbolic of seven spirits of God in Isaiah 11:2; but one God.
Fire is symbolic of the purging power of Holy Spirit. Everyday the priest would have to immerse the lamp in olive oil (symbolic of god’s anointing) and light the lamp with fire.

Then the light was placed in the Holy Place for light. The first court or the outer court had no lamp but was lit by the sun by day; but at night there was no lamp. The Holy of Holies also had no lamp for God’s Glory would be all the light it needed on the day of atonement.

 

[Benoni]

Fire was first used in a sacrifice of Abel = where the sweat of the works of Cain’s was not significant or acceptable.

Sacrifices were always done using fire which is symbolic of our flesh must be burnt or purified in the presence of God.

The sweat of Cain was not sufficient and was not an acceptable offering unto God for sin. All flesh (self) must be burnt by the fire of God.

Sweat or works is not acceptable. The Priest in the Aaronic order could not wear wool; wool causes sweat.


I love the type of Moses who went up the mountain; when Moses came down; the glory of God made His face glow to where the children of Israel could not even look at His face.

Psalm 103:7
He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel.
​

Most of God’s people knows God’s acts; Moses knew God face to face and knew God’s ways. Jesus said I am the way; (not religion) I want to know God face to face; that is the only way you will know his ways.

 

[EchoPneuma]

Matthew 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

That says NOTHING about the Lake of Fire. You read into scripture what you want it to say.

and the bible ALSO says that even Sodom and Gomorrah will have their fortunes restored. Why do you continue to ignore that?

 

[2ducklow]

That says NOTHING about the Lake of Fire. You read into scripture what you want it to say.

and the bible ALSO says that even Sodom and Gomorrah will have their fortunes restored. Why do you continue to ignore that?

it says day of judgement, lake of fire occurs at the day of judgement. as a preacher you should know that.

already answered the restoration of sodom and gomorrah. quote the scripture and Ill comment again for your viewing pleasure.

 

[2ducklow]

Fire was first used in a sacrifice of Abel = where the sweat of the works of Cain’s was not significant or acceptable.

Sacrifices were always done using fire which is symbolic of our flesh must be burnt or purified in the presence of God.

The sweat of Cain was not sufficient and was not an acceptable offering unto God for sin. All flesh (self) must be burnt by the fire of God.

Sweat or works is not acceptable. The Priest in the Aaronic order could not wear wool; wool causes sweat.


I love the type of Moses who went up the mountain; when Moses came down; the glory of God made His face glow to where the children of Israel could not even look at His face.

Psalm 103:7
He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel.​

Most of God’s people knows God’s acts; Moses knew God face to face and knew God’s ways. Jesus said I am the way; (not religion) I want to know God face to face; that is the only way you will know his ways.

and your point is?

 

[EchoPneuma]

it says day of judgement, lake of fire occurs at the day of judgement. as a preacher you should know that.

So what? It still doesn't say anything in the verse about anyone going to the LOF. You are adding your own ideas to the text.

already answered the restoration of sodom and gomorrah. quote the scripture and Ill comment again for your viewing pleasure.

Why don't you just answer the other question I asked earlier that you refused to answer.


If GOd IS love and love does no harm to anyone, then how can you say that God will harm millions of people for all of eternity in the LOF?

 

[2ducklow]

So what? It still doesn't say anything in the verse about anyone going to the LOF. You are adding your own ideas to the text.

sodom and gomorrha are judged at judgement day. evil wicked people, satan and demons and the false prophet and all those who take the mark of the beast are cast into the lake of fire on judgement day. the judgement of sodom will be less than the judgement of capernium. no addition to the word here.

Why don't you just answer the other question I asked earlier that you refused to answer.

what question?

If GOd IS love and love does no harm to anyone, then how can you say that God will harm millions of people for all of eternity in the LOF?

because god is not love. love is not god, love is an attribute of God. love is a predicate nominative which means it acts like an adjective. as in the case of "the car is red." the car is not the color red. or" the house is blue," the house is not the color blue. or "love is kind" love is not equivalent to kind, love is more than kindness. kindness is an attribute of love. so the answer is that love is not equal to God but is rather an attribute of God . therefore love does notharm people by throwing them in the lake of fire, unless they are thown in by jealousy because they rejected god who loved them for the devil .

 

[EchoPneuma]

sodom and gomorrha are judged at judgement day. evil wicked people, satan and demons and the false prophet and all those who take the mark of the beast are cast into the lake of fire on judgement day. the judgement of sodom will be less than the judgement of capernium. no addition to the word here.

And what about the scripture that says that Sodom and Gomorrah's fortunes will be RESTORED. How can they be restored if they are in the LOF for all eternity? They can't. So you are wrong.

because god is not love. love is not god,

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Seems your doctrine is at odds with the bible. It says God IS love. His very essence is love. He doesn't HAVE it.....He IS it.

and love DOES NO HARM.

love is an attribute of God. love is a predicate nominative which means it acts like an adjective. as in the case of "the car is red." the car is not the color red. or" the house is blue," the house is not the color blue. or "love is kind" love is not equivalent to kind, love is more than kindness. kindness is an attribute of love. so the answer is that love is not equal to God but is rather an attribute of God . therefore love does notharm people by throwing them in the lake of fire, unless they are thown in by jealousy because they rejected god who loved them for the devil .

Blah blah blah.....all your own ideas and opinions...nothing backed up by the bible.

THe bible says GOD IS LOVE....and that LOVE DOES NO HARM. You have just shown that you don't care what it says that you are going to concoct your own doctrines and definitions to line up with your beliefs.

 

[2ducklow]

And what about the scripture that says that Sodom and Gomorrah's fortunes will be RESTORED. How can they be restored if they are in the LOF for all eternity? They can't. So you are wrong.

What scripture?

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Seems your doctrine is at odds with the bible. It says God IS love. His very essence is love. He doesn't HAVE it.....He IS it.

and love DOES NO HARM.

there is no definite article before love which when 2 nouns are joined by the verb 'to be' or 'to become" and one noun doesn't have the definite article , that noun is a predicate nominative. a predicate nominative predicates something aboutthe subject which in this case is god. the car is red doesn't mean the car is the color red and god is love doesn't mean god is the emotion love. the verse immediately preceding 1 john 4.8 is verse 7

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.


if love is of god then it cant be that god = love. if god = love then love cannot be of God. love is of god means love comes from god.

1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.


the love of god, the wrath of God, the vengeance of God, the kindness of God, god is not any of these emotions, god is a spirit not emotions.

Blah blah blah.....all your own ideas and opinions...nothing backed up by the bible.

well thescripture above is in the bible and it backs up what I say.

THe bible says GOD IS LOVE....and that LOVE DOES NO HARM. You have just shown that you don't care what it says that you are going to concoct your own doctrines and definitions to line up with your beliefs.

Nope I have just shown that God does not equal love but rather that love is a deep and defining emotion of God. If I love you it doesn't mean I god you.

 

[Kimberlyann]

And what about the scripture that says that Sodom and Gomorrah's fortunes will be RESTORED. How can they be restored if they are in the LOF for all eternity? They can't. So you are wrong.

What scripture?

I've posted this Scripture before. Here it is again.

Ezek 16:48 As I live," says the Lord God, "neither your sister Sodom nor her daughters have done as you and your daughters have done. 49 Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. 50 And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit. F17 51 Samaria did not commit half of your sins; but you have multiplied your abominations more than they, and have justified your sisters by all the abominations which you have done. 52 You who judged your sisters, bear your own shame also, because the sins which you committed were more abominable than theirs; they are more righteous than you. Yes, be disgraced also, and bear your own shame, because you justified your sisters. 53 "When I bring back their captives, the captives of Sodom and her daughters, and the captives of Samaria and her daughters, then I will also bring back the captives of your captivity among them, 54 that you may bear your own shame and be disgraced by all that you did when you comforted them. 55 When your sisters, Sodom and her daughters, return to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters return to their former state, then you and your daughters will return to your former state. 56 For your sister Sodom was not a byword in your mouth in the days of your pride, 57 before your wickedness was uncovered. It was like the time of the reproach of the daughters of Syria F18 and all those around her, and of the daughters of the Philistines, who despise you everywhere. 58 You have paid for your lewdness and your abominations," says the Lord. 59 For thus says the Lord God: "I will deal with you as you have done, who despised the oath by breaking the covenant.
60 "Nevertheless I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. 61 Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed, when you receive your older and your younger sisters; for I will give them to you for daughters, but not because of My covenant with you. 62 And I will establish My covenant with you. Then you shall know that I am the Lord, 63 that you may remember and be ashamed, and never open your mouth anymore because of your shame, when I provide you an atonement for all you have done," says the Lord God.' "

 

[2ducklow]

53 "When I bring back their captives, the captives of Sodom and her daughters, and the captives of Samaria and her daughters, then I will also bring back the captives of your captivity among them, 54 that you may bear your own shame and be disgraced by all that you did when you comforted them. 55 When your sisters, Sodom and her daughters, return to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters return to their former state, then you and your daughters will return to your former state.

Ok, now I remember, sodom and gomorrha are the descendants of lot who was from sodom and gomorrha. that would be amonnites and moabites.

. He here confirms again what we lately saw, that the Jews were doomed and devoted to final destruction, nor was it possible for them to escape any more than for Sodom to rise again and Samaria to be restored to her original dignity. The Jews foolishly corrupt this passage, since they think that restoration is promised to Israel and Sodom. But by Sodomites they mean the Moabites and Ammonites, the descendants of Lot who dwell at Sodom: but a child may see that this is trifling. There is no doubt that the Prophet here deprives the Jews of all hope of safety by reasoning upon an impossibility: as if he had said, you shall be safe when Sodom and Samaria are. We now understand the Prophet’s meaning. But the inquiry arises — how can he pronounce none of the Israelites safe, when their return home is so often promised? But we must bear in mind, what we saw elsewhere, and what it is often necessary to repeat, since many passages in the prophets would otherwise give rise to scruples. Therefore we have sometimes said, that the prophets speak of the people in two ways; for they sometimes regard the whole body of the nation promiscuously: but the Israelites were already alienated from God; afterwards the Jews also cut themselves off from him. Since therefore each people, considering them in a body and in the mass, to speak roughly, was outcast, it is not surprising if the prophets use this language — that no hope of mercy remained — since they had excluded themselves from God’s mercy. But afterwards they change their discourse to the remnant: for God always preserves a hidden seed, that the Church should not be utterly extinguished: for there must always be a Church in the world, but sometimes it is preserved miserably as it were in a sepulcher, since it is nowhere apparent. God, therefore, when he denounces final vengeance on the Jews, regards the body of the people, but then he promises that there shall be a small seed which he wishes to remain safe. Hence it is said in Isaiah, (Isaiah 8:16,) seal my law, bind up my testimony among my disciples; that is, address my disciples as if you were reading in a hidden corner any writing which you did not wish to be made public. Do you therefore collect my disciples together, that you may deliver to them my law and my testimony like a sealed letter. But now God cites to his tribunal those degenerate Jews who had nothing in common with Abraham, since they had made void and utterly abolished his covenant: Now, therefore, we see how the Jews perished together with Sodom and Samaria, and were never restored, that is, as far as relates to that. filth and dregs which were utterly unworthy of the honor of which they boasted. I will restore, therefore, their captivities; namely, the captivity of Sodom and of its cities, and the captivity of Samaria and its cities, and the captivity of thy captivities, that is, and the captivity of all thy land; I will restore you, says he, altogether; but he speaks ironically, and, as I have said, he shows that God’s taking pity upon the Jews was impossible.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom23.v.liii.html

 

[StudentoftheWord]

Hello everyone, I apologize to a few of my "CF Buddies" for my absense.

I see we have a good conversation going on. This is going to be surprising to some perhaps, but not everyone is going to be saved as one through fire. In fact, the fire is reserved for the more difficult cases. This is hard for some in the CU/UR understanding to see but there is very clear understanding I have concerning this hot (forgive the pun) issue.

The first is to seperate ourselves for the sake of discussion the many types of fires found in Scripture. It is very easy to say they are all the same (which I have seen Benoni say here in the past) but the reality is they are fire. Real life examples would be, a candle light fire is used for light, a stove fire is used for cooking, a torch weilder flame is for fusing metal, the rocket fire is for propelling a rocket into space, refiner's fire is used to purify metals, a garbage fire is to burn up refuge, etc. Yes they all contain fire, but their usage dictates what they are used for. So if I say my candle is a fire, is it the same fire that launches a rocket into space?

Yes these verses are about believers. Who were saved by or through fire.

I propose that there are those who who are not saved by fire at all. Interestingly enough.

 

[2ducklow]

Hello everyone, I apologize to a few of my "CF Buddies" for my absense.

I see we have a good conversation going on. This is going to be surprising to some perhaps, but not everyone is going to be saved as one through fire. In fact, the fire is reserved for the more difficult cases. This is hard for some in the CU/UR understanding to see but there is very clear understanding I have concerning this hot (forgive the pun) issue.

The first is to seperate ourselves for the sake of discussion the many types of fires found in Scripture. It is very easy to say they are all the same (which I have seen Benoni say here in the past) but the reality is they are fire. Real life examples would be, a candle light fire is used for light, a stove fire is used for cooking, a torch weilder flame is for fusing metal, the rocket fire is for propelling a rocket into space, refiner's fire is used to purify metals, a garbage fire is to burn up refuge, etc. Yes they all contain fire, but their usage dictates what they are used for. So if I say my candle is a fire, is it the same fire that launches a rocket into space?



I propose that there are those who who are not saved by fire at all. Interestingly enough.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

it doesn't say he will be saved by or through fire but will be saved so as by fire. it's an analogy not literal. also his works will not literally be burned up. its figurative. no one is saved by fire. we are saved by faith in Jesus.