I never said it is anything of our works that save us. I keep saying it is by grace we are saved.Yes, it is. Nothing of ourselves contributes to our chances of salvation but only Faith in the shed blood of Christ.
Obviously, I have not been able to make you appreciate that it is Faith that saves, nothing else...and having that Faith we owe to having been given a free, unearned, gift from God. We call it Grace.I never said it is anything of our works that save us. I keep saying it is by grace we are saved.
Those are acts that were instituted by Christ for our benefit and commanded of us. They are not "works." In the Christian religion, "works" are acts of mercy or charity or devotionDo you add works to the faith or to the gospel of salvation, such as sacraments of water baptism or the Lord's supper?
The Holy Spirit "explained"? You seem to be teaching that the only point of contact that the Holy Spirit has with believers is in the written "Word of God", in Scripture. Whereas the Church knows that the Holy Spirit comes and abides inside of each faithful person. What exactly are you teaching here about the ministry of the Holy Spirit? Can a person with faith be filled with the Holy Spirit or not?Actually, the woman would experience what Israel experienced. She would receive the Holy Spirit, who would reveal God's ability and willingness to lead her into rest, allow her to fulfill the purpose for her life, be a blessing.
God deprived Israel of water, then He provided it miraculously. Ditto with food. Joshua saw this, so that when God asked Israel to fight a superior enemy, Joshua knew that God would provide victory. Not Israel, though.
Christ also created situations where the disciples were deprived of safety, food and even life. He then provided whatever was lacking, even raising Lazarus from the grave. When the Holy Spirit explained the significance of these experiences, the disciples feared nothing, not even death, in witnessing about God's ability and willingness to lead believers into rest.
Would you agree Joshua and Israel understood the issues like described above?
You don't understand what the issues are or are being careful, because it is can create huge changes, and problems in your normal routine, if you change your understanding.
However you are very loyal to your group. And you learn the doctrine well. These are going to be very helpful when you understand what the real issues are, what the meanings you receive are within the actual context.
What are we saved from? What is the good news? How will it change my outlook, cause me to change my mind about things, repent.
All these will mean different when the issues are different.
I will pray you read more of Scripture directly. I pray you fellowship with other believers who read directly from Scripture so that they can be a check and balance for what you will receive. Because that's how it was done and that's how it is taught to be done. In those very Scriptures.
Sometimes one person picks up the cross. And another is resurrected.
Huss wasn't a reformer. Huss was, in essence, an Orthodox Christian priest trapped in the world of Roman Catholicism because of his geographical location. He is informally honored as a martyr saint by Orthodox Christians who reside in the country where he served. His theology is Orthodox, not Roman Catholic and not Protestant.and yet Paul said
2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:"
I think you misunderstand me here. i was referring to any who would say they are in the faith or have faith and yet do not have God working in them at the new birth which is by the grace of God.
Some today say we are saved by "faith alone". But this is not scriptural. This is my point. And yes we cannot enter into the grace by which we are saved unless our hearts receive the word by faith. This is said to be "our faith" because our heart believes and receives the seed inwardly. This union with the seed in our heart and our newborn spirit in Christ, is the saving faith. This word in our heart is the life and this is the word of faith, or the word by which our faith is saving faith.
And yes I would have disagreed rightly so with many of the reformers on many points. With Luther Calvin, Zwingli, Huss etc. But I would have sided with them again the Roman Church in many points as well.
The reformers didn't go far enough in their reforms. They should have chopped off much more of the sacramental religion, the church order and forms that bind the saints. The New birth and spiritual gifts should have been more understood. The body ministry and true elders roles etc should have ben revealed etc etc. In many things they looked to much like their mother. The Mother they came out of has many daughters and we see the similarity in many today.
and yet scripture says,
Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )"
Titus 2:11
"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,"
I think the deep inward spiritual life in Gods grace at the new birth and the inward seed planted in the heart is not understood by many, since the reformation (although I have read some that did see these things way back even in the 1500's or so).
Those aren't "works" added to the faith. They're works "produced" from within the faith. There's a difference.I never said it is anything of our works that save us. I keep saying it is by grace we are saved.
I am also against this type of things in many churches, where they say a person must be water baptized to be saved, or some sacrament they do. This would be something they do added to the gospel to be saved (1 Cor 15:1-4 is the gospel)
Do you add works to the faith or to the gospel of salvation, such as sacraments of water baptism or the Lord's supper?
He didn't affirm any heretical beliefs of the reformers (that we know of). He merely cut out all the theological and ecclesiological developments that took place in Romanism, which distinguished it from Orthodoxy. Lutherans were also of the belief that they would find an ally in the Orthodox Church in supporting their reforms. But their reforms had gone far too far, so that they had become outright heresies.Hus did affirm number of the (heretical) beliefs later asserted by the Protestant Reformers, however. Luther was impressed by the similarities when he became aware of them.
no either way you look at it a false sacramental religion that has works of righteousness that you do to be saved is not the true and saving gospel of 1 Cor 15:1-4.Those aren't "works" added to the faith. They're works "produced" from within the faith. There's a difference.
LoveofTruth, it is so good to see you posting again. We missed you.I believe it is the Grace that saved and the faith is the door which we enter into it as Romans 5 says and Eph 2:8.
Ephesians 2:5
"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)"
The definition of what grace really is and what the word of God's grace is that builds us up is.
We read in scripture of the manifold grace of God.
here are some more verses to consider, this is a good study of what grace really means, and the gift of grace.
Im off to bed now but here are some verses to consider
Acts 20:32
"And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified."
John 1:16
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace."
Acts 13:43
Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God."
Acts 15:11
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."
Galatians 6:18
Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.
Acts 20:24
But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God."
Romans 1:5
By whom we have received grace and apostleship,..."
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me,..."
Romans 12:6
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;"
Romans 16:24
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."
Ephesians 3:7
Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
1 Corinthians 3:10
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon."
Ephesians 4:7
But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ."
Ephesians 4:29
Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
1 Corinthians 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me."
1 Peter 4:10
As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
2 Corinthians 6:1
We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain."
Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
2 Corinthians 8:6
Insomuch that we desired Titus, that as he had begun, so he would also finish in you the same grace also."
2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:"
Galatians 1:6
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:"
Galatians 2:9
And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me..."
Titus 2:12
"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;"
The Holy rituals have never been false and never will be. Neither are they "carnal ordinances". These precious gifts are given to us who believe by God Himself, through His holy prophets and then finally, by His Christ. They are all means by which the Holy Spirit can enter into us, although not the only means. I wrote more about this in my other post.no either way you look at it a false sacramental religion that has works of righteousness that you do to be saved is not the true and saving gospel of 1 Cor 15:1-4.
It is not by ordinances either.
carnal ordinances were imposed upon them until the time of reformation (Hebrews 9). Yet some add other ordinances for salvation and in doing so make another gospel.
Yes. I agree with this as written. I have to ask, however, do you believe that this "Grace" (a.k.a. the power of God, or the Holy Spirit) is ever found to be residing, inhabiting, and/or passing through physical, material substances, such as human bodies, parts of human bodies, water, oil, smoke, food, dirt, clothing, or any other such stuff? Why so or why not?LoveofTruth, it is so good to see you posting again. We missed you.
The meaning of "grace" is the problem. It is much easier to understand the gospel when "grace" is interpreted the way the apostles meant it. If Luther had understood the true meaning of grace, he wouldn't have started the heresy of "make your sins strong, but make your faith in Christ stronger! Nor would he have said, "No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day." Luther's understanding is what Paul spoke against - "sin so unmerited favor may abound."
Grace interpreted as "unmerited favor" is what happened when Christ died for our sins while we were yet sinners. However, when we repented and we received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the gift of grace became the power of God.
Acts 4:33 shows the Semitic style of writing of the apostles. This is an example of parallelism. Saying the same thing in two different ways. One explains the other. In this case, grace is power. "And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.
Now go back and re-read the scriptures you posted, and substitute power for the word grace to clarify the true meaning of the Word.
This power of God is why we are dead to sin - Romans 6:2
It is why we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit - Romans 8:9
It is why a Christian cannot commit willful sin. 1 John 3:9
We have the power of the living God residing in us.
You are ignoring the fact that Israel was rejected for unbelief, of the revelations of the Holy Spirit. There was no Scripture in the Exodus, the Holy Spirit taught through situations.The Holy Spirit "explained"? You seem to be teaching that the only point of contact that the Holy Spirit has with believers is in the written "Word of God", in Scripture. Whereas the Church knows that the Holy Spirit comes and abides inside of each faithful person. What exactly are you teaching here about the ministry of the Holy Spirit? Can a person with faith be filled with the Holy Spirit or not?
Another problem I'm recognizing with your approach to Scripture is an overemphasis on Old Testament readings and an under-emphasis on the New Testament. The Old Testament must be interpreted by the Light of the New, because the New is the perfect fulfillment of the Old.
From experience in spiritual combat, the saints have discovered that one of the ways that the demons tempt and draw a Christian away from the narrow path that leads to salvation is to convince them to stop praying and to read more Scripture instead. Once the Christian has given into this temptation, the demons convince them to spend all of their time reading from the Old Testament and to neglect the Gospels. What this lack of effective prayer and obsession with Old Testament stories does, is to create certain kind of non-salvific spirituality which is void of the grace of the Holy Spirit. In other words, it robs the person of the Holy Spirit, Who comes because of the work of Christ as revealed in the New Testament. Also, having been prevented, by the demon's suggestions, from praying, then they begin developing faulty ideas about the way to salvation based upon reading Scripture without the understanding that only the grace of the Holy Spirit can provide.
From what I can see, this pretty much sums up your present predicament. You don't even acknowledge the presence of the Holy Spirit in a person. You even seem to be rejecting the very idea of it. This is not the Gospel of Christ if you're doing this. This is a different Gospel and a differently defined Christ. We who have been believing the same Gospel and the same Christ for over 2000 years are not interested in it.
Christ dwells in believers hearts by faith. That dwelling in the hearts of believers is the grace that saves.The Holy rituals have never been false and never will be. Neither are they "carnal ordinances". These precious gifts are given to us who believe by God Himself, through His holy prophets and then finally, by His Christ. They are all means by which the Holy Spirit can enter into us, although not the only means. I wrote more about this in my other post.
Nobody denies that grace (the Holy Spirit) comes into a person by faith. But Jesus practiced and taught Holy rituals to be observed in His Church and so did His Apostles. Your teachings, springing forth from your dualism afflicted psyche, are definitely at odds with His and with the Apostles. The Holy rituals are not ordinances. They are precious gifts from God, given by His Christ through the preaching and teaching of His Apostles. Yet you would be well pleased to rob God's little ones of them, and merely because your mud covered eyes can only see well enough to spot various displays of sinfulness and corruption that has come about due to the faithlessness and apostasy of those who use the institution of the Church for selfish gain, but you have no real power of discernment to be aware of the presence of God's grace (i.e. the Holy Spirit) at work in the mystical body of Christ, which is the Orthodox Church. Only those who have the Holy Spirit residing in them can recognize the Holy Spirit's presence in other believers and in the practice of the Holy rituals. You claim to have the Holy Spirit residing in your heart through your faith, yet you don't recognize His work in the hearts and minds of those who observe the grace-filled Holy rituals practiced within the Communion of saints in the Holy Church that Christ built up by the Power of the Holy Spirit.Christ dwells in believers hearts by faith. That dwelling in the hearts of believers is the grace that saves.
This has nothing to do with outward ordinances for salvation.
Read 1 Cor 15:1-4 again and see that no ordinacnces or sacraments or Mosaic law, or Sabbaths, r eating or drinking , or water baptism etc are added to it. To do so is to make another gospel, pain and simple as we read of in the holy scriptures..
They Holy Spirit is a person, and He comes and Lives inside of you when you practice your faith with unceasing repentance. He teaches you directly through intimate contact with your own spirit. By His teaching you can gradually learn the Holy mysteries of God as they are present in the Word of God -- Christ. These mysteries exceed what the rational mind can comprehend. This is Orthodox Christianity: the Faith of the Apostles who established it upon the very Truth that Christ revealed to them by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within them. If your version of the faith denies this, then it is a dead faith.You are ignoring the fact that Israel was rejected for unbelief, of the revelations of the Holy Spirit. There was no Scripture in the Exodus, the Holy Spirit taught through situations.
1 Corinthians 10:1-7
1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food;4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.”
Hebrews 3:14-19
14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
15while it is said,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME.”
16For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? 17And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.
.......
You are also avoiding building your views with precious material, Scripture and using hay and straw, traditions, which have not stood the test of fire. is not God's word like fire, a hammer that breaks even rocks?
Jeremiah 23:28-32
28“The prophet who has a dream may relate his dream, but let him who has My word speak My word in truth. What does straw have in common with grain?” declares the LORD. 29“Is not My word like fire?” declares the LORD, “and like a hammer which shatters a rock?30“Therefore behold, I am against the prophets,” declares the LORD, “who steal My words from each other. 31“Behold, I am against the prophets,” declares the LORD, “who use their tongues and declare, ‘The Lorddeclares.’ 32“Behold, I am against those who have prophesied false dreams,” declares the LORD, “and related them and led My people astray by their falsehoods and reckless boasting; yet I did not send them or command them, nor do they furnish this people the slightest benefit,” declares the LORD.
Wordkeeper said in post #547:
God made men and put them in different places and situations hoping they would seek him, grope for him.
Wordkeeper said in post #547:
Some became God's sheep, most didn't.
Wordkeeper said in post #547:
. . . each found that being friends of the world would require them to ignore what their better nature told them was right.
Wordkeeper said in post #547:
They admitted they were foreigners in this old man, and God was not ashamed to be called their God, and He built a new city, a holy city, a new man, a new humanity for them to rest in, at great cost.
LoveofTruth said in post #561:
(1 Cor 15:1-4 is the gospel)
truefiction1 said in post #564:
Only the Church, as the body of Christ, prevents evil from reigning supreme over all of mankind.
You state that the living waters is the Holy Spirit.They Holy Spirit is a person, and He comes and Lives inside of you when you practice your faith with unceasing repentance. He teaches you directly through intimate contact with your own spirit. By His teaching you can gradually learn the Holy mysteries of God as they are present in the Word of God -- Christ. These mysteries exceed what the rational mind can comprehend. This is Orthodox Christianity: the Faith of the Apostles who established it upon the very Truth that Christ revealed to them by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within them. If your version of the faith denies this, then it is a dead faith.
Yes. I agree with this as written. I have to ask, however, do you believe that this "Grace" (a.k.a. the power of God, or the Holy Spirit) is ever found to be residing, inhabiting, and/or passing through physical, material substances, such as human bodies, parts of human bodies, water, oil, smoke, food, dirt, clothing, or any other such stuff? Why so or why not?
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