Saved based on God's foreknowledge or God's random choice?

[Pneuma3]

As I understand, before we experienced the Holy Spirit we had only the flesh to draw from. So we were not free to choose beyond the limits of the flesh. But we are now free to walk after the flesh or Spirit. We quench the Spirit by walking after the flesh. But we learn through trial and error it is best to remain in the Spirit continually. We can avoid outward sin altogether, and limit the flesh to temptation, which is not sin unless yielded to. We do this by censoring impure thoughts and imaginations making them conform to Christ (2 Corinthians 10:5).

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Gods omnipotence is not limited to man's will. He can and will save every single soul He desires to. He is not frustrated by the free will of man in His desire that " all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth."
Free will doctrine robs God of His glory by subjecting His desire to man's.

Your thinking is incorrect. You assume free will robs God of something. It doesn't. It gives Him greater glory, because He chose to allow man and angels to have it. So we willfully choose to serve Him, rather than ignorantly choosing to serve Him (because we can't even decide to do it ourselves).

 

[Dave L]

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

But it only condemns them.

“Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.” (Galatians 3:21–22)

 

[TCassidy]

You question was answered by the scritpure,

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God Rom 10;17

If the word was preached to ALL then it CAME to them.

Except that wasn't my question. I asked "So all who hear the Gospel have faith?"

Too which you replied, "Do they have any excuse not to have?"

And again quoted the verse that says "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God."

But you still have not answered the question, so, here it is again, "All who hear the Gospel have faith?"

Simple question. It can be answered with a simple "yes" or "no." So, which is it? Do all who hear the Gospel have faith? Yes or no. Don't avoid the question again, just honestly answer it.

 

[TCassidy]

This I can't agree with. It is hyper-Calvinism.

You obviously don't know what Hyper-Calvinism is.

 

[Pneuma3]

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

But it only condemns them.

“Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.” (Galatians 3:21–22)

hardly, as the law written in their hearts is according to the new covenant not the old.

 

[Dave L]

hardly, as the law written in their hearts is according to the new covenant not the old.

The Old Covenant hung from the Two Great Commandments. Nobody had the Ten but Israel up until Jesus abolished them.

 

[Pneuma3]

The Old Covenant hung from the Two Great Commandments. Nobody had the Ten but Israel up until Jesus abolished them.

yup the old was written on stone the new written in the on the heart, thus the scripture in question was speaking of the new not the old unto condemnation.

 

[stephen pollard]

But it only condemns them.

“Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.” (Galatians 3:21–22)

The law placed in the heart does not condemn:

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.

17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.

Heb10:16&17

 

[Bobber]

Except that wasn't my question. I asked "So all who hear the Gospel have faith?"

Too which you replied, "Do they have any excuse not to have?"

You just know you've been put in checkmate and you're refusing to acknowledge your state.

As for your question I answered it. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God and God had the gospel preached to EVERY CREATURE or is seeking to have such done. If the Word of Faith goes to every creature then faith has been given...what they do with it is another matter!

OK YOUR TURN! The Word of Faith bring preached to not just some but EVERY CREATURE.....Do they have an excuse not to have faith YES or NO!

Poster you seem to delight in forcing these these lawyer type "yes" or "no" type questions on people to steer them where ever you want...Now I'm forcing one on you! Answer the question I asked above...YES or NO! If you want to run away and hide well I guess that's understandable.

Let me tell the audience on here the ramifications. If he says YES they do have excuse because God never gave them faith to believe then the sin of unbelief which damns them isn't their fault. And he as a Calvinist is wanting it to be their fault. If he says NO they don't have excuse for not having faith that DOES AWAY with his Calvinistic thinking as well for he believes faith is given only selectively to the elect. So how can they have no excuse for not having faith????

 

[TCassidy]

You just know you've been put in checkmate and you're refusing to acknowledge your state.

No, just pointing out you can't answer the question.

As for your question I answered it.

No, you didn't.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God

Yes, we all know that.

God had the gospel preached to EVERY CREATURE or is seeking to have such done.

Yes, we know what the Great Commission says.

If the Word of Faith goes to every creature then faith has been given...what they do with it is another matter!

So, everyone who hears the Gospel has faith and is thus a believer.

It seems to me you are a universalist.

 

[Bobber]

It seems to me you are a universalist.

NO

 

[Dave L]

The law placed in the heart does not condemn:

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.

17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.

Heb10:16&17

We know how we want to be treated. But nobody treats others that way unless born again.

 

[bling]

There is a will in Heaven which controls not only Heaven but the earth as well.
Proverbs 16:9
The heart of man plans his way,
but the Lord establishes his steps.

OK, but it is the decisions of the heart which counts. If you want to sin but can't because of some restraint you are still guilty of that sin. If you want to turn to God, confess your sins, repent of your ways and be baptized, but are hanging on a cross next to Christ dying you might just be able to say a sentence which is not worthy of anything.

 

[royal priest]

OK, but it is the decisions of the heart which counts. If you want to sin but can't because of some restraint you are still guilty of that sin. If you want to turn to God, confess your sins, repent of your ways and be baptized, but are hanging on a cross next to Christ dying you might just be able to say a sentence which is not worthy of anything.

You had me, but then you lost me on that last line. Are you referring to the thief that repented of his malediction?

 

[Pneuma3]

We know how we want to be treated. But nobody treats others that way unless born again.

ya because Christians are so good at that. lol

I know a few atheist that treat people better then most Christians I know.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Gods omnipotence is not limited to man's will. He can and will save every single soul He desires to. He is not frustrated by the free will of man in His desire that " all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth."
Free will doctrine robs God of His glory by subjecting His desire to man's.

I agree that God's omnipotence is not limited by man's will whatsoever. If God wanted to wipe us all out or save all of us, He is fully and completely absolutely Sovereign. Nothing outside of Himself can or will ever limit Him. Nothing created by Him can ever overpower Him. That is impossible.

God is not prevented by man in the slightest. God's desire isn't subjected to man's choice--as if God lost control to man. God's desire is subjected to each individual's choice, because GOD--who is absolutely Sovereign--CHOSE to allow it to be that way. He CHOSE to allow it to be that way, because it brings Him more glory to have willing worshippers rather than pre-programmed robots whose decision to worship Him is not by choice but by ordination. (John 4)​

Hypothetical Example:

If I made you: Then, if you would worship me, because I made you in such a way that I built into you that you must worship me, it doesn't bring me any glory. It is meaningless. I created you that way and I know it--even if you don't realize that. If I line up a whole bunch of robots that I pre-programmed to worship me. I know they aren't choosing to do it, because I pre-programmed them to. God is much more intelligent than I am. He would certainly know if He was getting the only automated response those He enabled were capable of giving Him. If that were true, how does that bring God glory?

In contrast, if I could figure out a way to give those robots their own self-contained conscience with which they could choose a course of action--so they could choose to worship me or choose to reject me--then, when one of those robots did worship me, it would mean something to me. That robot had a choice and with that choice chose to worship me. I would be more glorified by the one who came back to worship me than by the 99 who were just pre-programmed and never chose me. The number of creatures following means nothing if they don't have the ability to choose to follow.

Jesus Christ subjected His will to the Father's. Does that reduce His glory? Jesus Christ said the Holy Spirit was greater than Him, does that reduce Jesus Christ's glory? When Jesus Christ said "Do you not think I could call legions of angels" or when Jesus was asking the Father if there was another way, but coming back to "Not My will, but Yours be done"--do you think that somehow reduced the Father's glory one iota that Jesus could have made a contrary choice? NO! The fact that Jesus chose to willfully and wholly subject Himself to the Father's will is an amazing testimony to the glory of the Father.

You really ought to reconsider where you stand on that issue at least. You have been sold a lie. God's glory isn't reduced by people having the ability to choose Him. It is actually the opposite--it is increased!

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

And His will is to save ALL MEN , yet you do not believe He will, go figure.

I certainly agree with the point you were making to the person who calls himself "royal priest" here, because if he is going to say "free will" robs God of His glory, then to be consistent, he would also have to agree that a stated desire of God's not being fulfilled also robs Him of glory. If God wants "All...." and not all come, then either God is not capable of enforcing His desire upon man that "All..." OR God has allowed something to be more important than His desire that "All..." and that higher prioritized something within Him limits the fulfilment of the desired "All...".

 

[Pneuma3]

I agree that God's omnipotence is not limited by man's will whatsoever. If God wanted to wipe us all out or save all of us, He is fully and completely absolutely Sovereign. Nothing outside of Himself can or will ever limit Him. Nothing created by Him can ever overpower Him. That is impossible.

So if God wants to save the whole world and Gods omnipotence is not limited by man's will whatsoever why do you not believe the whole world will be saved?

The only way you can get around that conundrum is by believing God did not want to save the whole world.

Is that what you believe?

 

[royal priest]

I agree that God's omnipotence is not limited by man's will whatsoever. If God wanted to wipe us all out or save all of us, He is fully and completely absolutely Sovereign. Nothing outside of Himself can or will ever limit Him. Nothing created by Him can ever overpower Him. That is impossible.

God is not prevented by man in the slightest. God's desire isn't subjected to man's choice--as if God lost control to man. God's desire is subjected to each individual's choice, because GOD--who is absolutely Sovereign--CHOSE to allow it to be that way. He CHOSE to allow it to be that way, because it brings Him more glory to have willing worshippers rather than pre-programmed robots whose decision to worship Him is not by choice but by ordination. (John 4)​

Hypothetical Example:

If I made you: Then, if you would worship me, because I made you in such a way that I built into you that you must worship me, it doesn't bring me any glory. It is meaningless. I created you that way and I know it--even if you don't realize that. If I line up a whole bunch of robots that I pre-programmed to worship me. I know they aren't choosing to do it, because I pre-programmed them to. God is much more intelligent than I am. He would certainly know if He was getting the only automated response those He enabled were capable of giving Him. If that were true, how does that bring God glory?

In contrast, if I could figure out a way to give those robots their own self-contained conscience with which they could choose a course of action--so they could choose to worship me or choose to reject me--then, when one of those robots did worship me, it would mean something to me. That robot had a choice and with that choice chose to worship me. I would be more glorified by the one who came back to worship me than by the 99 who were just pre-programmed and never chose me. The number of creatures following means nothing if they don't have the ability to choose to follow.

Jesus Christ subjected His will to the Father's. Does that reduce His glory? Jesus Christ said the Holy Spirit was greater than Him, does that reduce Jesus Christ's glory? When Jesus Christ said "Do you not think I could call legions of angels" or when Jesus was asking the Father if there was another way, but coming back to "Not My will, but Yours be done"--do you think that somehow reduced the Father's glory one iota that Jesus could have made a contrary choice? NO! The fact that Jesus chose to willfully and wholly subject Himself to the Father's will is an amazing testimony to the glory of the Father.

You really ought to reconsider where you stand on that issue at least. You have been sold a lie. God's glory isn't reduced by people having the ability to choose Him. It is actually the opposite--it is increased!

The aspect of the God's glory which is decreased by free-will doctrine is related to God's sovereignty over His Creation, in general. In God, we live, and move, and have our being. He determines the culture and environment in which we are reared. He also determines our personal life-experiences. All of these work to shape our perspectives, thought-processes, and motion of our wills. As the rivers of water, so is the heart of the king in the hand of the Lord; He directs it as He pleases.