Saved based on God's foreknowledge or God's random choice?

[TCassidy]

Ahh, yes the favorite Calvinist tactic.... If you can't answer the question, throw in a diversion.

He didn't ask me a question. Please try to keep up.

 

[Loren T.]

He didn't ask me a question. Please try to keep up.

"OK YOUR TURN! The Word of Faith bring preached to not just some but EVERY CREATURE.....Do they have an excuse not to have faith YES or NO!"

Actually he did. Try to pay attention.

 

[TCassidy]

"OK YOUR TURN! The Word of Faith bring preached to not just some but EVERY CREATURE.....Do they have an excuse not to have faith YES or NO!"

Actually he did. Try to pay attention.

No, answering a question with a question is not an answer. He still refuses to answer my question. Probably because he can't.

 

[Pneuma3]

(1) You said: "If God wants to save the whole world". I agree. God states that in 1 Tim 2:4 and 2 Pet 3:9.

(2) You said: "God's omnipotence is not limited by man's will." I agree.

So you agree God wants to save the world and God omnipotence is not limited by mans free will. However if God omnipotence is not limited by mans free will and wills the salvation of all men why cannot all men be saved?

What you are actually saying is Gods omnipotent will is limited by man’s free will because you use man’s free will to say Gods omnipotent will, will not be done.

(3) You said: "Why do you not believe the whole world will be saved?" My answer: Because God said so. Again, there are so many passages.

Please show me one scripture that says God does not want to save the world.

 

[Dave L]

““The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Mount Sinai. The LORD did not make this covenant with our ancestors, but with all of us who are alive today.” (Deuteronomy 5:2–3)

The Two Great Commandments preceded the Ten. The Two have love for their motive. The Ten had death threats and reward as their motive for the most part. The Born Again naturally did all the Ten Required and more. But the wicked could not even do the Ten at their lowest demands.

Christ replaced the Ten with the New Covenant (the Two) on the cross. We use the Ten for commentary and instruction, but walk in the light of the Two.

The Two Great Commandments are eternal based on love for God and others. The Ten HUNG from them to control wicked unbelievers under threat of death. And using their greed promising temporal rewards fro obedience.

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” (1 Timothy 1:9–10)

But God replaced the Ten Commandments with the New Covenant that follows the Two Great Commandments for believers only. Just as Abraham and other believers followed the Two before God used unbelievers under the Ten in their service.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

So you agree God wants to save the world and God omnipotence is not limited by mans free will. However if God omnipotence is not limited by mans free will and wills the salvation of all men why cannot all men be saved?

What you are actually saying is Gods omnipotent will is limited by man’s free will because you use man’s free will to say Gods omnipotent will, will not be done.





Please show me one scripture that says God does not want to save the world.

Pneuma3, I don't know how to say what I am trying to say any more clearly.

(1) God isn't limited by man's free will, by man's choice. Man wouldn't even have free will, if the omnipotent God didn't CHOOSE TO ALLOW man to have it. God is CHOOSING TO LIMIT HIMSELF to allow that a man's free will to determine a man's outcome. God makes the choice to let man have free will. God makes the choice to accept what man decides, because God wants willing worshippers who will worship Him in spirit and in truth. He won't get that when entities don't have free will.

Think about the angels. Was God not able to force lucifer and his 1/3 to line up? And though He chose not to force that 1/3 of the angels to line up, is God not completely able to handle them? God toys with and even mocks satan in Job 1 &2 when he says: "So where ya been, satan?" Do you think God didn't know?" Then God says: "Have you considered my servant Job...?" Then satan says, he only does it, because you protect him. satan had to get God to remove His protection to even mess with Job. With regard to satan and his crew, was there ever a doubt that God would win? According to what God foretold, it is almost like God plays with satan. Whenever God wants to put satan somewhere, satan can't stop Him (He has him put in a pit and then He has him released; then He has him put in the lake of fire. There isn't even a fight in Revelation. It just happens when God gives the order. God's omnipotence is not limited at all by satan or his crew. Likewise, God is inhibited at all by the less-powerful entity of man.

God desiring that people would choose correctly IS NOT THE SAME as God being powerless to make it so. But, if God made it so, the concept of free will would be meaningless and the concept that men would willfully worship Him in spirit and truth would also be meaningless.

(2) There are no Scriptures that say that God doesn't want to save the world; HOWEVER,
(3) There are many Scriptures that say that He won't--at least not in what the Bible appears to tell us. If somehow God circles around and saves all, after the lake of fire, God is OMNIPOTENT and God is merciful and gracious. If God were to choose to blow off what He showed John in Revelation or what He seemed to tell us through Jesus, God is OMNIPOTENT and God is merciful and gracious. There is nobody who could stop Him from doing that.
(4) There are verses that God could cite to say "I told you so" whether He saves everyone (Romans 5, etc) or doesn't save everyone (Romans 9, Revelation 20, John 3:16, etc) from His wrath and to eternal life.

 

[Loren T.]

He didn't ask me a question. Please try to keep up.

No, answering a question with a question is not an answer. He still refuses to answer my question. Probably because he can't.

Jesus actually did that a lot, answering a question with another question. But, what you said was "He didn't ask me a question, then when I post the question, you dodge it again.

 

[Loren T.]

So you agree God wants to save the world and God omnipotence is not limited by mans free will. However if God omnipotence is not limited by mans free will and wills the salvation of all men why cannot all men be saved?

What you are actually saying is Gods omnipotent will is limited by man’s free will because you use man’s free will to say Gods omnipotent will, will not be done.

What is so hard to understand about God choosing to limit his power for a time in order to give men free choices? Man's free will does not limit God's Omnipotence, because man is free (within certain limits) because God chose to make him free.

 

[TCassidy]

Jesus actually did that a lot, answering a question with another question.

He's not Jesus.

 

[Pneuma3]

Pneuma3, I don't know how to say what I am trying to say any more clearly.

(1) God isn't limited by man's free will, by man's choice. Man wouldn't even have free will, if the omnipotent God didn't CHOOSE TO ALLOW man to have it. God is CHOOSING TO LIMIT HIMSELF to allow that a man's free will to determine a man's outcome. God makes the choice to let man have free will. God makes the choice to accept what man decides, because God wants willing worshippers who will worship Him in spirit and in truth. He won't get that when entities don't have free will.

Where in all of scripture does it say God choose to limit Himself?is not god immutable? what you are doing is eliminating one of Gods attributes for the other.

I agree with free will. However I don't believe our free will is an obstacle to God, for love, who our God is cannot fail to do all that He set out to do, which is the salvation of the world. In the end Gods will, will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Think about the angels. Was God not able to force lucifer and his 1/3 to line up? And though He chose not to force that 1/3 of the angels to line up, is God not completely able to handle them? God toys with and even mocks satan in Job 1 &2 when he says: "So where ya been, satan?" Do you think God didn't know?" Then God says: "Have you considered my servant Job...?" Then satan says, he only does it, because you protect him. satan had to get God to remove His protection to even mess with Job. With regard to satan and his crew, was there ever a doubt that God would win? According to what God foretold, it is almost like God plays with satan. Whenever God wants to put satan somewhere, satan can't stop Him (He has him put in a pit and then He has him released; then He has him put in the lake of fire. There isn't even a fight in Revelation. It just happens when God gives the order. God's omnipotence is not limited at all by satan or his crew. Likewise, God is inhibited at all by the less-powerful entity of man.

and yet we are also told that ALL THINGS are reconciled by the blood of the cross.

God desiring that people would choose correctly IS NOT THE SAME as God being powerless to make it so. But, if God made it so, the concept of free will would be meaningless and the concept that men would willfully worship Him in spirit and truth would also be meaningless.

Gods will, will be done on earth as it is in heaven. every knee shall bow in adoration and every tongue confess in praise that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Thus if God desires/wills all men to be saved we are assured that all men will be saved, and we are assured of that because God is faithful to his word.

(2) There are no Scriptures that say that God doesn't want to save the world; HOWEVER,
(3) There are many Scriptures that say that He won't--at least not in what the Bible appears to tell us. If somehow God circles around and saves all, after the lake of fire, God is OMNIPOTENT and God is merciful and gracious. If God were to choose to blow off what He showed John in Revelation or what He seemed to tell us through Jesus, God is OMNIPOTENT and God is merciful and gracious. There is nobody who could stop Him from doing that.
(4) There are verses that God could cite to say "I told you so" whether He saves everyone (Romans 5, etc) or doesn't save everyone (Romans 9, Revelation 20, John 3:16, etc) from His wrath and to eternal life.

exactly there is NO scripture that says God will NOT save the world, yet we have plenty (I already gave you some) that state God through Christ IS the saviour of the world. Thus what I believe is actually recorded in scripture even to the extent that we are commanded to teach it while what you believe is NOT recorded in scripture and you can only get your doctrine via implication. This tells me your implication of scriptures is in error.

 

[Hawkins]

Do you believe that you will be saved based on God's foreknowledge of your ultimate choice? OR
Based on God's random choice/selection?

What do you based that on?

Both are inaccurate. We are not saved by God's foreknowledge. We are saved by the legitimate judgment by a covenant applicable to us. We are saved because we are openly witnessed (by angels and chosen saints) to be the qualified in terms of such a covenant.

We are saved because we can abide by the covenant applicable to us.

On the other hand, God used His foreknowledge in designing such a covenant to identify His Elect accurately. God predestined His Elect to go through all the necessary choices to demonstrate openly by the said standard in the covenant that we are the saved.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Where in all of scripture does it say God choose to limit Himself?is not god immutable? what you are doing is eliminating one of Gods attributes for the other.

I agree with free will. However I don't believe our free will is an obstacle to God, for love, who our God is cannot fail to do all that He set out to do, which is the salvation of the world. In the end Gods will, will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

What on earth does immutable have to do with our discussion. God self-limiting is not the same as God changing. God also calls himself a jealous God and talks about his wrath. If God was not self-limiting, those two could easily take us out! In fact, in one of the verses, 2 Pet 3:9, it says that God is "long-suffering, not willing that any should perish; but that all should come to repentance."

Greek word means: to wish, be willing, want, desire

In the other verse, 1 Tim 2:4, word means: wish of desire, wish to have, desire, want

When God created Lucifer, did God desire him to fall and be kicked out of heaven? I don't see that in Scripture. When God created Adam and Eve, did God create Eve to be deceived so Adam would disobey Him, thus necessitating the Lamb's sacrifice? I also don't see that in Scripture. I see those things happening, but I think it is quite a stretch to say that it was God's will for all that to happen. But, God allowed His creatures to have free will and some inevitably chose to use their free will to be disobedient. If they use their free will and He overrides it, do they really have free will in the first place? So, in your understanding, the parables have no meaning, because whether you choose Him or not, whether you are good soil or not, whether you are a good fish or not, whether you are a prepared virgin or not, whether you build on the rock or on the sand, whether you hide or use your talent, whether you come dressed in appropriate wedding attire or not, whether you listened to the Words of Jesus and did them or not--it all doesn't matter, because everyone will be saved anyway despite their lived-out choice?

Jesus didn't have to share the things He shared. Jesus is the one who talked about Gehenna. Jesus is also the one who, in His Revelation to John, showed the Lake of Fire. he didn't have to. And what about the whole cut off an appendage vs thrown into the fire and weeping and gnashing of teeth? Do you really believe Jesus lied about all that stuff? And, if so, for what purpose?

I certainly believe if God wants to save everyone, then God can certainly bring alive again those He subjects to the second death. But, I don't see Scripture as saying He is obligated to do that.

and yet we are also told that ALL THINGS are reconciled by the blood of the cross.

No argument. Colossians 1:20 is there. But, the challenge is that while Paul certainly said things that lead to certain beliefs, he also said things that are more consistent with all the rest of the Scriptures, including other Scriptures He wrote--like "if you live after the flesh, you will die." So, why all the false threats from God, if none of that is going to happen? So, do you believe God going to resurrect those who die the second death?

Gods will, will be done on earth as it is in heaven. every knee shall bow in adoration and every tongue confess in praise that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Thus if God desires/wills all men to be saved we are assured that all men will be saved, and we are assured of that because God is faithful to his word.

We won't agree here. I do believe "every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord"; but some of us will also confess Him as our Savior. There is a big difference. A beaten opponent can surrender to the victor; but that isn't the same as confessing the victor as their savior. In WWII, Germany and Japan lost to the United States, but they certainly didn't feel like the United States saved them. The U.S. Soldiers who were prisoners of war certainly were forced to bow to the Japanese and German soldiers containing them, but U.S. prisoners of war certainly didn't view them as their saviors.

Again, if God chooses to circle back and save everyone, He can, because He is God. He is faithful to His Word, like you said, so given the multitude of words about punishment, wrath, and the second death, there will be plenty of people who will go through that. God is not a man that He should lie, so I don't believe Jesus lied about all He shared with us.

exactly there is NO scripture that says God will NOT save the world, yet we have plenty (I already gave you some) that state God through Christ IS the saviour of the world. Thus what I believe is actually recorded in scripture even to the extent that we are commanded to teach it while what you believe is NOT recorded in scripture and you can only get your doctrine via implication. This tells me your implication of scriptures is in error.

You know that is not true. You can certainly make claim to what you believe through some verses in Scripture; but to claim that clear teaching from Jesus Himself is "doctrine via implication" is wrong. As I shared before, Jesus taught about the second death through His Revelation to John. Jesus spoke about what would happen at the end. Jesus spoke about overcomers getting gifts including life and not being blotted out of His book (of life), not me. To pull a few verses out of what Paul says that contradict other verses he also shares and claim those verses you are choosing to highlight clearly win over everything else he writes is just that--a claim.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Both are inaccurate. We are not saved by God's foreknowledge. We are saved by the legitimate judgment by a covenant applicable to us. We are saved because we are openly witnessed (by angels and chosen saints) to be the qualified in terms of such a covenant.

We are saved because we can abide by the covenant applicable to us.

On the other hand, God used His foreknowledge in designing such a covenant to identify His Elect accurately. God predestined His Elect to go through all the necessary choices to demonstrate openly by the said standard in the covenant that we are the saved.

So do you believe we are just living out an elaborate movie where His elect are completely controlled so they can make all the right choices while others are intentionally given free will to fail to attain a covenant only meant for those who are controlled so they won't fail to make even one right choice?

If there is more than one covenant that could be fulfilled successfully, doesn't that, according to Paul, make Jesus death of no value? (Gal 2:21)

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Jesus is the vine. Without Him I can do nothing. If I live for Him then it is because He is producing that fruit from within a dead sinner. I am no better than any unbeliever. God, by that very power He used when He raised Jesus from the dead, makes the difference in me. He is every ounce of my hope and confidence. Soli Deo Gloria

It is a shame that God gives man a new nature and man chooses to reject that new nature in favor of the old. To say one is still a sinner and no better than an unbeliever discards what God says about His new creation and the value of the Holy Spirit, not to mention downgrading what Jesus did for us.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Johnny4ChristJesus,

[I'm sorry, I still don't understand how this idea brings God glory. ]

not yet...

[If God takes total control ]

God is always in total control...He does not have to "take control". It helps to speak of God by accurately saying what He has revealed about Himself.

[and just makes some be saved and others not saved ]

Are you seeking to advise a perfectly wise God how He should do things?

[AND neither subset of humanity has the freedom to make any choice that corresponds to which group they end up in, how exactly does that bring glory to God?]

Both groups make choices according to their nature


[And, if our free will is not exploited and developed here, I'm guessing that your glorious vision of heaven is that we simply retain our puppethood--unable to choose for or against God? ]

Free will apart from your nature does not exist....


[So, we aren't really even "like angels" like Jesus said because even angels could make choices (see Satan and his third).]

we make choices against God every day until God saves us.


A

You choose to support a man's doctrine over what God says. I don't seek to advise God. He is God. He does not totally control. And, He never says that. He claims responsibility for everything, because He is absolutely sovereign and for anything to happen He has to allow it to. Take satan's conversation with God regarding Job (Job 1 & 2) and yet, despite all that God allowed to happen to Job through satan, God restored Job big time! Note that God only set parameters for satan--He didn't tell him what to do. That same God had to allow satan to sift Peter like wheat.

When you don't love your neighbor as yourself, as a born again believer, you are making a choice against God. Everything about us doesn't instantly change when we are born again. You can see that in the New Testament Scriptures.

 

[Pneuma3]

What on earth does immutable have to do with our discussion. God self-limiting is not the same as God changing. God also calls himself a jealous God and talks about his wrath. If God was not self-limiting, those two could easily take us out! In fact, in one of the verses, 2 Pet 3:9, it says that God is "long-suffering, not willing that any should perish; but that all should come to repentance."

A couple of things here Johnny.

no scripture states God is self limiting.

If God is not willing that any should perish does that not tell you it is Gods will to save the world and if it is Gods will to save the world (not just the elect) how can mans will then override Gods will? you said earlier "God isn't limited by man's free will, by man's choice" but if mans free will, by man choice can stop God from doing what He set out to do (the salvation of the world) then logically mans free will choice has limited God from doing what he set out to do.

You have a wrong idea of Gods wrath. According to scripture the law worketh wrath.
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Ro.4:15

Now we know the law is a ministration of DEATH, but it is also our schoolmaster that lead us to Christ.

Thus what Gods wrath does is minister DEATH to our old man and leads the inner man to Christ.

Thus Paul goes on to say

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Ro.5:9

So what wrath are we being saved from? answer: the wrath of the law.

So what does it mean to be saved from wrath? Just as we are not saved from death but out of death so to are we saved out of the wrath (the power of the law) through Christ.

Greek word means: to wish, be willing, want, desire

In the other verse, 1 Tim 2:4, word means: wish of desire, wish to have, desire, want

It means so much more then wish or desire, it means to be resolved or determined, to purpose.

and this can be seen if you continue to read the context.

Paul start out by say we are to pray and make intercessions for ALL MEN, For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Notice it is the same ALL MEN that Christ our great mediator, mediates on behalf of all men. Why? because He gave himself a ransom for ALL.

God does not just desire all men to be saved it is His determined purpose to save all men.

 

[Pneuma3]

When God created Lucifer, did God desire him to fall and be kicked out of heaven? I don't see that in Scripture. When God created Adam and Eve, did God create Eve to be deceived so Adam would disobey Him, thus necessitating the Lamb's sacrifice? I also don't see that in Scripture. I see those things happening, but I think it is quite a stretch to say that it was God's will for all that to happen. But, God allowed His creatures to have free will and some inevitably chose to use their free will to be disobedient. If they use their free will and He overrides it, do they really have free will in the first place? So, in your understanding, the parables have no meaning, because whether you choose Him or not, whether you are good soil or not, whether you are a good fish or not, whether you are a prepared virgin or not, whether you build on the rock or on the sand, whether you hide or use your talent, whether you come dressed in appropriate wedding attire or not, whether you listened to the Words of Jesus and did them or not--it all doesn't matter, because everyone will be saved anyway despite their lived-out choice?

Maybe I am mixing you up with another but are you not a Calvinist? if so that same argument can be used against what you believe.

I posted this in another thread but here is the way I see it.

Question: does not Gods sovereignty and Gods will go hand in hand?



How can God be said to be sovereign if His will is not being done?



They way I see it is that God is sovereign in heaven, and it was Gods sovereign purpose to give man dominion on the earth. In other words man is sovereign on earth.



Thus on earth as of right now Gods will is not being done, which is why Jesus told us to pray to the Father thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.



Thus not until all the kingdoms ( which speak of sovereignty) of this world become the kingdoms of Christ will Gods sovereignty in Heaven be seen and done on earth.



This does not mean God does not work in and with man to bring to pass His sovereignty of heaven on earth.



As the heaven are above the earth, the sovereignty of God is above the sovereignty of man.



Thus all that God has planned in the heavenlies, will come to pass in the earth, Gods will, will be done on earth as it is in heaven.



And this is marvelous in my eyes for it is God's sovereign WILL that all will be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

which of course bring up the question why preach the gospel at all if everyone is going to be saved.

Why preach the gospel at all?


Without a doubt this is one of the most frequent question asked of me, everywhere I post I come across this question.


Here is my answer to this question


For me the reason Jesus was sent and the reason Jesus sends us is to free people through Him from sin and death. Salvation is not complete just because one believes Jesus died for them. Believing is only the starting point on our journey toward full salvation, for we are reconciled by His death, but saved by His life.

All men everywhere are already reconciled by His death, this is a done deal because He died 2000 years ago for all men's reconciliation and mans belief or unbelief CANNOT change this fact. If someone does not believe Jesus died for then simply does not change the fact that He did.

So then all men everywhere have already been reconciled, but not all men are yet saved from sin and death.


Therefore Jesus send us out in order to proclaim His salvation by His LIFE.
His death reconciled all men, but His LIFE is what saves all men, this salvation is not a one time deal as such, but is a long process of walking in His LIFE and forsaking our own. Taking up the cross and following Him and enduring unto the end that we might be saved.


Thus we are told to proclaim His death and therefore His reconciliation for all men as a FACT that cannot be disputed , and we are to do this so that the entire world can have the same hope in His LIFE that we to have. Thus it is not by His death that sin and death are defeated but by His LIFE.

When we witness about that which Jesus done, we are first to tell all men that they have been reconciled because of His death, this fact breathes hope into the world that God does indeed love them. Then after people become aware of the fact of this reconciliation by His death we are to proclaim His resurrection. And it is because of the fact that He was resurrected OUT OF DEATH that the world is given hope of the same resurrection OUT OF DEATH. We are NOT saved from death, we are saved OUT OF DEATH, for it was while we were DEAD in sin that He died and was raised to life again for us.

So the resurrection is a moving from DEATH to LIFE, so as He died for all men, so to did He rise for all men, and this is the gospel of the good new toward ALL MEN EVERYWHERE.

If one believes Jesus died for all men, should it not go without saying that when He rose again that it was for all men also? Can we really separate His death from His resurrection? If so, how then can DEATH be swallowed up of LIFE?

God bless


I wrote this in response to a lady who asked the question if all are saved why preach the gospel at all?


After reading my answer this was her reply back to me.



Dear Pneuma,

I totally agree with your description of the gospel. Yes, we are not only dead in Christ but now alive in Christ, praise God. You are right, Christ's death cannot be separated from His resurrection. It was His resurrection that the disciples preached, you are right. It is His resurrection that is the hope for all mankind. The full gospel is the death and resurrection. I agree He died for all, all are reconciled through His death and all are given life through His resurrection, out of death, as you say. I can't however, get past the point of faith (which is given to us by God in His grace anyway, all have the capacity to believe, or reject) and personal response to accepting this truth for ourselves, as revealed by the Spirit to us. I heard John Bevere give a definition of the word 'believe' in as meaning 'to follow'. Believing (in our terms) is first yes, and then taking up our cross daily and living following Christ, I agree is the full walk of salvation. Again, we can only do any of this by God's grace through faith hey.
I feel the Spirit of God on what you have written and thank you.

 

[Pneuma3]

Jesus didn't have to share the things He shared. Jesus is the one who talked about Gehenna. Jesus is also the one who, in His Revelation to John, showed the Lake of Fire. he didn't have to. And what about the whole cut off an appendage vs thrown into the fire and weeping and gnashing of teeth? Do you really believe Jesus lied about all that stuff? And, if so, for what purpose?

No i don't believe Jesus lied about anything. I believe your understanding of those things is in error.
All these things are the Judgments of God and when Gods judgments are in the earth the WORLD will learn righteousness.

Every single one of Gods judgments are for correction.

I certainly believe if God wants to save everyone, then God can certainly bring alive again those He subjects to the second death. But, I don't see Scripture as saying He is obligated to do that.

His very purpose in sending Jesus practically screams it. For God sent Jesus to save the world and if the world is not saved then God missed his mark which is sin. Thus we are assured of the salvation of the world because God CANNOT MISS THE MARK/SIN.

Do you believe God can miss His mark?

No argument. Colossians 1:20 is there. But, the challenge is that while Paul certainly said things that lead to certain beliefs, he also said things that are more consistent with all the rest of the Scriptures, including other Scriptures He wrote--like "if you live after the flesh, you will die." So, why all the false threats from God, if none of that is going to happen? So, do you believe God going to resurrect those who die the second death?

After those tossed into the second death we still read the gates of the city are still open and all who obey his commandments (those without the gates of the city) have a right to enter through the gates and take of the water of life freely. Rev.22

We won't agree here. I do believe "every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord"; but some of us will also confess Him as our Savior. There is a big difference. A beaten opponent can surrender to the victor; but that isn't the same as confessing the victor as their savior. In WWII, Germany and Japan lost to the United States, but they certainly didn't feel like the United States saved them. The U.S. Soldiers who were prisoners of war certainly were forced to bow to the Japanese and German soldiers containing them, but U.S. prisoners of war certainly didn't view them as their saviors.

Again, if God chooses to circle back and save everyone, He can, because He is God. He is faithful to His Word, like you said, so given the multitude of words about punishment, wrath, and the second death, there will be plenty of people who will go through that. God is not a man that He should lie, so I don't believe Jesus lied about all He shared with us.

Let's take for instance the word bow, in the Greek the word is kampto, and it means to bend the knee in honour and religious veneration and it is only used for religious veneration in scripture.


Thus we can see that being made to bow as the doctrines of eternal torment and annihilation is in complete error.


Now let's look at the other word, confess. The word confess here is the Greek word exomologeo meaning to acknowledge openly and joyfully, to celebrate in praise of ones honour.


Thus we can see that being forced to confess as the doctrines of eternal torment and annihilation is again in complete error.

Does God get glory from lip service? NO, thus those scriptures cannot mean what you say they mean for they expressly say to the GLORY of God the Father.

Also note

no man can say that Jesus Christ is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.


1 Corinthians 12:3

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.



And that confession is made unto salvation.


Romans 10:10

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I believe it was clement who first posted this and I know he wont mind me re-posting it.

"Appendix II: Every Knee Shall Bow"

This worship brings Him glory. A forced worship would not glorify or satisfy a loving God. ―This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me‖ (Mt. 15:8)¨ Paul links mouth confession with salvation. ―If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus…you will be saved…with the mouth confession is made unto salvation‖ (Ro. 10:9). ¨ ―No one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit‖ (1Co. 12:3). This is strong evidence it refers to a sincere worship since fear alone could bring about a forced worship without the need of the Holy Spirit moving the heart. ¨ The phrase ―confess that Jesus Christ is Lord‖ was used in early baptismal services by which those being baptized expressed their commitment to Christ or declared they had been saved through Christ.2 Now, since ―under the earth‖ refers to the abode of the dead (or hell), then even in death an opportunity remains to confess Christ unto salvation. ¨ According to Vine, ―bow,‖ (kamptō per Strong‘s 2578, ―to bend‖) is used especially of bending the knees in religious veneration (Ro.11:4, 14:11; Ep. 3:14; Ph. 2:10). [In contrast] sunkamptō signifies… to bend down by compulsory force‖ (Ro. 11:10). 1 ¨"God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Ph. 2:9-11 NAS). Is this forced worship, or one offered genuinely from the heart? Below are 20 points that together, I believe, unmistakably affirm true worship.
The word ―confess‖ in this passage is the same Greek word exomologeomai that Christ used in praising His Father in Mt. 11:25 and Lu. 10:21. It is used 11 times: Mt. 3:6; 11:25; Mk. 1:5; Lu. 10:21; 22:6; Ac. 19:18; Ro. 14:11; 15:9; Ph. 2:11; Ja. 5:16; and Re. 3:5. None of these can be seen as ―forced‖ praise. They relate to what flows naturally from the heart. For example, Jesus exclaimed, ―I heartily praise Thee, Father…that Thou hast hidden these things…‖ (Mt. 11:25 Wey). The NIV and the NAS read, ―I praise you Father.‖ Ro. 15:9 RSV states, ―I will praise thee among the Gentiles, and sing to thy name‖ (See the NIV, NAS, TEV, Phillips, Jerusalem Bible, RSV, NEB, WEY, and so forth). The Englishman‘s Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance of the Old Testament says exomologeomai is the Greek word used in Psalms for ―praise‖ (yadah) and ―give thanks‖ (hoday) in the Septuagint used in Christ‘s time. Simply reading Psalms confirms the genuine worship of Ph. 2:11.3¨ That this is true worship is confirmed in Re. 5:13 and by the entire context (Re. 5: 11-14) if they are related. ―Every creature in heaven and earth and under the earth…I heard saying: ‗Blessing, honor, glory, power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb‘…‖ (Re. 5:13). Why would these two contexts not be related? ¨

Ken Eckerty in an article titled, ―The Work of the Cross,‖ said: I think it‘s significant that the bowing of every knee and the confessing of every tongue is done ―in‖ the name of Jesus, not ―at‖ as translated by the KJV. Scholars such as Vincent, Robertson, Young, Rotherham, and Bullinger (just to name a few) all say that it is best translated ―in.‖ ―For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I.…‖ Mt.18:20 ―In‖ Christ‘s name implies an ―entering into‖ or an intimacy with His name. Confession ―in‖ His name cannot mean anything but intimacy. 4 To accurately understand Ph. 2:9-11, we must go to the Old Testament from where it is quoted. Let us look closely at Is. 45:21-25: 21.There is no other God beside Me, a just God and a Savior; there is¨" Those who are incensed against Him shall be ashamed (vs. 24). Being ashamed is usually a positive thing and often a sign of genuine repentance. 2Ch. 30:15;¨ ―Surely in the LORD I have righteousness‖ (vs. 24). Only a genuine believer could say this. Note that this is stated as an oath (vs. 23), making it especially pertinent. ¨none beside me. 22. Look to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23. I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath. 24. He shall say, ‗Surely in the LORD I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, and all shall be ashamed who are incensed against Him. 25.In the LORD all the descendents of Israel shall be justified, and shall glory.‘ Ezra 9:5-7; Job 19:3; Jer. 6:13-15, 8:12, 12:13, 31:18- 20, Ez. 16:60-63, 36:31-33; 2Th. 3:14-15.

―How awesome are Your works! Through the greatness of Your power Your enemies shall submit themselves to You. All the earth shall worship You and sing praises to You; they shall sing praises to Your name. Selah. Come and see the works of God; He is awesome in His doing toward the sons of men (Ps. 66:3-5).‖ Certainly these passages together with Ph. 2:11 all point to the same glorious worship (Re. 5:13)!¨ ―He is able even to subdue all ―things‖ to Himself (Ph. 3:21).‖ Note: ―things‖ is not in the Greek and that this is said in the very same letter! ¨ ―Because He delights in mercy. He will again have compassion on us, and will subdue our iniquities. You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea (Mic. 7:18-19).‖Is subduing iniquity forcing insincere worship? ¨"―All the descendants of Israel shall be justified and shall glory‖ (vs. 25). Justification and glory are undeniable evidences of genuine repentance.

"In Ps. 66:3-5, God is described twice as ―awesome‖ in the very context of ―enemies submitting themselves‖ through His ―great‖ power. And this mind you, is all in the context of ―all the earth‖ worshiping and singing praises to God! David then invites us to come and see how awesome is His doing toward humanity! Where is ―forced‖ worship here? As well, they are ―submitting themselves,‖ not ―being‖ submitted. Relative to Mic. 7:18-19, how can a ―compassionate subduing‖ from a God ―delighting in mercy‖ (in the very context of sins cast away) possibly coincide with a forced worship of those eternally being tormented in hell? Now Ph. 3: 21 is found in the very same letter as our key text, making it particularly pertinent. It affirms that God‘s power is ―even able‖ to do something. ―Even able‖ implies something extraordinarily impressive. A compelled submission by brute force is not particularly impressive. But a God winning the hearts of His enemies through His sacrificial love on the cross—that is impressive! That‘s what makes Him truly a most ―awesome‖ and all powerful God!

"―He humbled Himself…even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him…that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow‖ (Ph. 2:8-9). Every knee bows because of the cross. The word ―therefore‖ links the cross with worship. To deny genuine worship at the foot of the cross is to strip this passage of all its meaning. Worse, it strips the cross of its power to save and insults the Spirit of grace (He. 10:29). Talbott asks: Now just what is the power of the Cross, according to Paul? Is it the power of a conquering hero to compel His enemies to obey Him against their will? If that had been Paul‘s doctrine, it would have been strange indeed, for God had no need of a crucifixion to compel obedience. He was quite capable of doing that all along. God sent His Son into the world, not as a conquering hero, but as a suffering servant; and the power that Jesus unleashed as He bled on the Cross was precisely the power of self-giving love, the power to overcome evil by transforming the wills and renewing the minds of the evil ones themselves. ⁵

"The cross of Christ is the greatest power in the universe because it alone can melt the hearts of God‘s enemies, and make them His friends. As John Milton, the famous 17th century English author wrote, ―Who overcomes by force hath overcome but half his foe.‖ 6

Finally, some will say, ―Of course they‘ll confess then, it will all be too obvious. There will be no merit to confessing then.‖ But are we saved by merit? Where is boasting? It is excluded (Ro. 3:27). We, as the Church, have stripped this passage of its full glory. The bottom line is the love of God will do what His power alone could never do: conquer the hearts of His enemies and make them His friends.¨ God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name…. What kind of a worship, sincere or genuine, would highly exalt Christ? I know which one would lowly exalt Him. ¨ ―When all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him that God may be all in all‖ (1Co. 15:28). The Greek word for ―subject‖ is the same word applied to Christ. Can it be questioned that Christ‘s submission is not freely given? Moreover, would God be all in subjects forcefully subjugated? ¨ God Himself works in them ―to will.‖ Does God working in the hearts of His children to will to do His good pleasure mean only a forced submission? The question is its own refutation. ¨ Salvation is directly mentioned here. ―Every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Therefore…work out your own salvation…for God works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure‖ (Ph. 2:11-13). The word ―therefore‖ is very significant, for it links the confession that Jesus is Lord directly with salvation. ¨"

"Why did I go into such detail over this one verse? Because this passage is very well known, quoted, and even sung about. Sadly, it is not truly appreciated for its glorious meaning. I think any honest reflection of these twenty points must agree with the evidence presented, that Ph. 2:9-11 affirms sincere and heartfelt worship."

You know that is not true. You can certainly make claim to what you believe through some verses in Scripture; but to claim that clear teaching from Jesus Himself is "doctrine via implication" is wrong. As I shared before, Jesus taught about the second death through His Revelation to John. Jesus spoke about what would happen at the end. Jesus spoke about overcomers getting gifts including life and not being blotted out of His book (of life), not me. To pull a few verses out of what Paul says that contradict other verses he also shares and claim those verses you are choosing to highlight clearly win over everything else he writes is just that--a claim.

I don't deny those things Johnny I just know that ALL Gods judgments are corrective in nature , for as the scriptures say, when Gods judgments are in the earth the world will learn righteousness.

What reason do you believe Gods judgments are for and can you supply any scripture that backs up what you believe Gods judgments are for?

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

You choose to support a man's doctrine over what God says. I don't seek to advise God. He is God. He does not totally control. And, He never says that. He claims responsibility for everything, because He is absolutely sovereign and for anything to happen He has to allow it to. Take satan's conversation with God regarding Job (Job 1 & 2) and yet, despite all that God allowed to happen to Job through satan, God restored Job big time! Note that God only set parameters for satan--He didn't tell him what to do. That same God had to allow satan to sift Peter like wheat.

When you don't love your neighbor as yourself, as a born again believer, you are making a choice against God. Everything about us doesn't instantly change when we are born again. You can see that in the New Testament Scriptures.

Hello J4,
You are thinking in a way that will eventually bring you to truth.
Man's doctrine???That would be the false philosophy called "free will"...which is not found in scripture regarding the condition of man's self will.
You are correct God set limits for Satan. Notice God did not force Satan.
Satan did what his evil opposing nature desired.
Fallen sinners freely sin as their fallen nature binds them to sin.
Can you see that?

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Hello J4,
You are thinking in a way that will eventually bring you to truth.
Man's doctrine???That would be the false philosophy called "free will"...which is not found in scripture regarding the condition of man's self will.
You are correct God set limits for Satan. Notice God did not force Satan.
Satan did what his evil opposing nature desired.
Fallen sinners freely sin as their fallen nature binds them to sin.
Can you see that?

1) First, when I say free will, I do mean choosing between self-will and God's will. In reality, all our choices fall into one of those two categories--we either do it for self-centered reasons or God-centered reasons. But, I would never make a God-centered choice if I was 100% self-centered and I would only make an others-centered choice if I saw that it would somehow benefit me (self-centered) or if God led me to (God-centered). But, there are times that people do things that aren't self-centered. The evidence is that they don't care that others know they did it.
2) Yes, God didn't force satan. He set limits. I think God does the same with us. Satan made a choice when presented with someone God esteemed thrown in his face. He got kicked out of heaven, because of his pride. And, here God was exalting a man--in satan's face! Certainly, God knew how satan would respond. But, that is more my point that God doesn't force any of our decisions.
3) No, I don't see that sinners are bound to sin, as noted in #1. Certainly a sinner's nature pre-disposes them to making self-centered choices. But, I do see Job--who God seemed to think wasn't bound to sin at every turn. I see Abel and Enoch, before "being born again" was available. I see Noah, Abraham, Daniel, etc. I see people who all fell short of the glory of God--because we all need Jesus--including them. But, I see people who weren't bound to sin at every decision point, but were still limited to the fallen nature through which to live their lives.