Saved based on God's foreknowledge or God's random choice?

TCassidy · Sep 24, 2018

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
4267 proginosko
Meaning: to know beforehand
Origin: from 4253 and 1097
Usage: foreknew(2), foreknown(1), knowing beforehand(1), known previously(1).

The above is what is known as the "Root Fallacy" or the "Etymological Fallacy." (See D. A. Carson, Exegetical Fallacies, Baker Academic, 1996.)

This fallacy fails to understand that the philological meaning of a word (the way the word is used in common speech) may be entirely different than the etymology may suggest.

In this case, the Greek word προεγνω is an aorist, active, indicative, third person, singular verb and has the common (philological) meaning of "ordained" or "chosen."

Both Strong and Thayer recognize the philological meaning and list "ordained" and "elected" as definitions.

joshua 1 9 · Sep 24, 2018

TCassidy said:
The will is not free. It is in bondage either to the law of sin and death or to the law of New Life in Christ.

To say a believer is in bondage contradicts the Bible. "So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." John 8:36

You can write your own dictionary definitions if you want but the day will come when we will use God's dictionary and not mans.

TCassidy · Sep 24, 2018

joshua 1 9 said:
To say a believer is in bondage contradicts the Bible. "So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." John 8:36

You seem to have overlooked the verses that talk about bondage:
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Galatians 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

And what does Paul call himself? Romans 1:1 Paul, a slave of Jesus Christ, a called apostle, separated to the gospel of God,

Other translations use the word "Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, a called apostle, having been separated to the gospel of God.

So, the bible says the unsaved person is in bondage to the law of sin and death, and the bible says the saved person is a bondservant, a servant or slave, who is in bondage to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Loren T. · Sep 24, 2018

TCassidy said:
No "free will" there.

No "free will" there either.

Still no "free will."

You see, "free will" has nothing to do with making choices. We all make choices every day.

"Free will" is a denial of what Paul says in Romans 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death."

The lost man's will is not free, it is in bondage to the law of sin and death.

And the saved man's will is not free, it is bound to the law of New Life in Christ.

The will is not free. It is in bondage either to the law of sin and death or to the law of New Life in Christ.

Again, as Paul says, in Romans 7:18-23 "For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwells no good thing. For desire is present with me, but I don’t find it doing that which is good.
19 For the good which I desire, I don’t do; but the evil which I don’t desire, that I practice.
20 But if what I don’t desire, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the law, that, to me, while I desire to do good, evil is present.
22 For I delight in God’s law after the inward man,
23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.

He then asks that heart-felt question in Romans 7:24 "What a wretched man I am! Who will deliver me out of the body of this death?"

Then he answers his own question in Romans 7:25 "I thank God through Jesus Christ, our Lord! So then with the mind, I myself serve God’s law, but with the flesh, sin’s law."

God sets us free when we believe and trust in him. It's all his work, but he will not do it with out us first surrendering to his will.

TCassidy · Sep 24, 2018

Loren T. said:
but he will not do it with out us first surrendering to his will.

If we are in bondage to the law of sin and death how do we first surrender to His will? We are bound. We can't surrender to His will. That is what "bondage" means. You are bound and can't do what you want to do (even though the bible says the lost man doesn't want to surrender to Christ).

Loren T. · Sep 24, 2018

TCassidy said:
If we are in bondage to the law of sin and death how do we first surrender to His will? We are bound. We can't surrender to His will. That is what "bondage" means. You are bound and can't do what you want to do (even though the bible says the lost man doesn't want to surrender to Christ).

So, why are we told repeatedly to believe in Christ, if we can't? I've seen it first hand, the spirit convicts us and then we either surrender or resist.

TCassidy · Sep 24, 2018

Loren T. said:
So, why are we told repeatedly to believe in Christ, if we can't?

Because we are to believe. And God then gives us the Grace to enable us to believe. I can't love and trust someone I hate. I must first learn to love Him, and His Grace is sufficient and efficacious to enable me to do so.

klutedavid · Sep 24, 2018

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
Do you believe that you will be saved based on God's foreknowledge of your ultimate choice? OR
Based on God's random choice/selection?

What do you based that on?

God predestined that the Christ would die for the sins of humanity. This was the express will of God and no one could assist or even stop this event occurring.

God chose to save people based on whether they believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Yet again, this was the will of God.

The act of belief in Jesus, is both a conscious act and a gift at the same time. Sometimes I believe in Jesus without any effort and at other times, I need to reassess what it is that I believe and why.

On the one hand, the Christian belief is all from God and at other times. One must work out their salvation, i.e., put their belief into practice.

I would place an each way bet on God's will and human choice, that is, people responding to what God has willed.

One can be convicted by God to do something for example, going to church. Yet, people must make an effort to go to church, must decide to act on that conviction. It is a two way street.

Alithis · Sep 24, 2018

TCassidy said:
Uh, actually, that is not what it means. Paul is saying that when we were saved we were declared to be positionally righteous. In other words, the salvation God placed within us was perfect. So now we are told to "work out" that salvation. That is, externalize it, so that it is not just something hidden within us, but is now being externalized so that others can see the change in us and can begin to see what God is doing in our life.

"Externalize that perfect salvation I put within you. Don't allow it to be hidden inside where nobody can see your good works and glorify your Father in Heaven."

yes i agree
and do so with fear and trembling

if the externalization is not there, niether is the salvation
...no fruit,dead branch
gets cut off and burned.

Alithis · Sep 24, 2018

klutedavid said:
One can be convicted by God to do something for example, going to church. Yet, people must make an effort to go to church, must decide to act on that conviction. It is a two way street.

i agreed with your post untill this bit quoted.
there is zero command to go tochurch
just some good adviceto not forsake healthy fellowship
most man made organisations labeld as church is Not healthy fellowship.

klutedavid · Sep 24, 2018

Alithis said:
i agreed with your post untill this bit quoted.
there is zero command to go tochurch
just some good adviceto not forsake healthy fellowship
most man made organisations labeld as church is Not healthy fellowship.

Hey, I'm not advocating that church attendance is a commandment. That was just an example of a believer acting on the belief, and seeking fellowship with like minded folk.

There are different levels of belief.
1) a simple belief in God
2) a simple belief in the person of Jesus Christ
3) a stronger belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ
4) an even stronger belief resulting in the confession of Jesus, bible reading, prayer, e.t.c.
5) a very strong belief which results in evangelism, prayer, outward love, e.t.c.
6) a fanatical belief, i.e., the apostle Paul

Sometimes I am not sure what people mean when they use the word, belief?

Alithis · Sep 24, 2018

klutedavid said:
Hey, I'm not advocating that church attendance is a commandment. That was just an example of a believer acting on the belief, and seeking fellowship with like minded folk.

There are different levels of belief.
1) a simple belief in God
2) a simple belief in the person of Jesus Christ
3) a stronger belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ
4) an even stronger belief resulting in the confession of Jesus, bible reading, prayer, e.t.c.
5) a very strong belief which results in evangelism, prayer, outward love, e.t.c.
6) a fanatical belief, i.e., the apostle Paul

Sometimes I am not sure what people mean when they use the word, belief?

sadly too often they mean knowing about it.and little more.
for my understanding,to "believe" is to take action based upon what Jesus says
for the simple reason that,i really DO believe it .

TCassidy · Sep 24, 2018

Alithis said:
i agreed with your post untill this bit quoted.
there is zero command to go tochurch
just some good adviceto not forsake healthy fellowship
most man made organisations labeld as church is Not healthy fellowship.

I disagree. Hebrews, which was written to, well, Hebrews, and the writer, whom I believe to have been Paul, goes out of his way to use a word the Hebrews would understand.

Hebrews 10:25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another; and so much the more, as you see the Day approaching.

Look at that word "assembling." It is not the usual Greek word for "assembling" or "church." It is the Greek word επισυναγωγην "episunagogan." It is made up of the preposition "epi" (at) and the common word "sunagogan." It is where we get our English word "synagogue." The place where the Jews would assemble to sing, pray, hear the scriptures, receive instruction and worship. The clear meaning is that we are not to forsake that gathering for singing, praying, hearing the scriptures, receiving instruction and worshiping.

klutedavid · Sep 24, 2018

Alithis said:
sadly too often they mean knowing about it.and little more.
for my understanding,to "believe" is to take action based upon what Jesus says
for the simple reason that,i really DO believe it .

I agree.

One can believe in a God and I think everyone can do that, it is an inbuilt choice.

To believe in the person of Jesus Christ, is a formal belief. Believing in Jesus involves the conviction by the Holy Spirit of the reality of Jesus Christ.

Then the formal belief in action, bearing fruit, is an active belief system.

There are obviously differing types, levels, kinds of belief.

joshua 1 9 · Sep 24, 2018

TCassidy said:
You seem to have overlooked the verses that talk about bondage

All of your verses conforms what I am saying.

joshua 1 9 · Sep 24, 2018

klutedavid said:
God predestined that the Christ would die for the sins of humanity.

The very first word in the Bible is: "beginning". If you study the letters that make up the word beginning we see that from the Beginning Jesus was given as a grain offering for the world so that Heaven and Earth could be become one. This is why the bread and the wine represent Jesus.

"Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds." John 12:24

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" Isaiah 46:10

Loren T. · Sep 24, 2018

TCassidy said:
Because we are to believe. And God then gives us the Grace to enable us to believe. I can't love and trust someone I hate. I must first learn to love Him, and His Grace is sufficient and efficacious to enable me to do so.

God gives us the grace to believe after we believe? Yes, God gives us the grace to enable us to believe, but it is not irresistible.

Pneuma3 · Sep 24, 2018

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
I am interested in your line of thinking here. Obviously, you are killing omniscience (all-knowing), as a characteristic of God.

Hi Johnny, no I am not killing Gods omniscience I just have a different and I believe more biblical understanding of it.
Most believe that unless God knows all things from eternity past then God cannot be all knowing.

However as I pointed out with abe being tested and God only after the test saying to Abe NOW I KNOW shows that God did not know from eternity past that Abe would withhold nothing from him. The example you gave (Adam and Eve, Abel and Cain, Noah's time, Babel, etc) are some of the other examples I have used in the past, which also show this.

So as scripture shows Gods all knowing aspect is done via testing and the searching out of the hearts of men does this mean God is not all knowing? NO

What it actually shows is God is all knowing BECAUSE he searches out the inner hearts of man, thus he knows all choices a man will make BEFORE man actually makes the choice, but not before man has set his heart on a choice.

It is not a sin for a bird to land on your head, but it is a sin if you let him build a nest there.

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
I certainly don't like the word "evolve," because I don't believe in the pseudo-scientific mythology of one species becoming another and those mythologists use that word, too. But, I can certainly see how He hones us--like a Potter. I also don't know that I can consider this world to be a closed system that we cannot escape from. People commit suicide. People commit abortion. People commit all variants of murder. I believe God has to allow any of these things to happen; but it certainly questions the closed-system "evolving" idea

I see us as evolving from an old man into a new man or as scripture says we are a new creature in Christ Jesus.

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
Based on Scripture, He doesn't wait until our end to see our heart, thoughts, and choices, if ever. He clearly sees people of other religions who He knows have a heart for Him if He exposes them to the truth, because there are plenty of stories of Him appearing to a muslim with no Christian testimony around. I can accept this as a possibility, because of many times in the Scripture where God seems to respond as if He is surprised (Adam and Eve, Abel and Cain, Noah's time, Babel, etc).

Yes and it is because He see, via the searching of all mens hearts that He knows who is ready to hear and who is not.

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
So, if you move into limited omniscience:

(1) When and how does God notice a choice, thought, or heart?
(2) How do you maintain that God isn't caught off guard by something another does before He knows about it?
(3) If God is caught off guard, then how do you know that He can keep His promises to you?

as I do not believe in limited omniscience this does not really concern me.

TCassidy · Sep 24, 2018

joshua 1 9 said:
All of your verses conforms what I am saying.

So now you admit the lost man is in bondage to sin and the saved man is bound to new life in Christ. Good. We are making progress.

TCassidy · Sep 24, 2018

Loren T. said:
God gives us the grace to believe after we believe?

No. God gives the unbeliever Grace to believe, repent, and obey.

Loren T. said:
Yes, God gives us the grace to enable us to believe, but it is not irresistible.

God's Grace is efficacious. It always accomplishes exactly what God intends it to accomplish. His Grace never fails.

Saved based on God's foreknowledge or God's random choice?

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