Saved based on God's foreknowledge or God's random choice?

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Whosoever believes is unconditional = salvation by grace. Whosoever chooses to believe is conditional = salvation by works.

I disagree with you.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Based on the Bible.
God knew me while I was in the womb.

Jacob I loved and Esau I hated.

The Book of Romans states that God the potter can raise one up for good and one for bad.

Who are we but, little men to question God?

M-Bob

 

[DamianWarS]

Do you believe that you will be saved based on God's foreknowledge of your ultimate choice? OR
Based on God's random choice/selection?

What do you based that on?

the truly infinite doesn't have the luxury of random choice

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

(1) Do you believe Gods foreknowledge of an event means that event is predestined to come to pass?



(2) Did God predestinate the individual of His body or did God predestinate the body?

In answer to your questions:

(1) NO! He just knows what is going to happen before it does. And, in fact, He knew it before the foundation of the world.

(2) Great question. This is what I believe:

"For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

I believe based on God's foreknowledge, He foreordained individuals. Though this is just coming to me as I respond, I am reminded of King David as a type/shadow of us. He was, within time, foreordained/anointed to be king before he actually became king. God told Samuel that He looks at the heart when He chose David to be the future king.

 

[Dave L]

I disagree with you.

Choosing to believe as a condition of salvation robs God of his glory in salvation and applies some of it to yourself.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

study your bible and find out.

There are plenty of people who study their Bible with preconceived notions and end up just as wrong after studying as they were before they started.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Choosing to believe as a condition of salvation robs God of his glory in salvation and applies some of it to yourself.

I disagree. It makes God even more glorified to have people who willfully choose Him than having people who do it simply because they were designed that way. I believe to say that some are simply designed to choose Him and some are designed to reject Him is a glorified way of saying that God created robots that will choose Him and robots that couldn't choose Him--even if they wanted to. I fail to see how that brings God glory.

It isn't a work for me to choose Him. The fact that He allowed and even planned for me to have that choice is itself a Divinely Sovereign work. Jesus said "If I am lifted up, I will draw all men to Myself." And, yet, not all men come, to be saved, by their God-given choice. Paul said to Timothy that God wants "all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth." Peter said similar when he said that God is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." Yet, Jesus reports a different result in His foretelling of what is going to happen in the end of this age, both through the Gospels and in Revelation.

The most amazing part of God's Absolute Sovereignty to me is that He could force everyone, but what would He gain? But, allowing people to choose--something He speaks of over and over again (OT and NT)--and still able to bring about what He promises for those who do choose Him is an absolute show of how powerful and how amazing He truly is! Wow!!!!!! I stand in awe of Him!

 

[Dave L]

I disagree. It makes God even more glorified to have people who willfully choose Him than having people who do it simply because they were designed that way. I believe to say that some are simply designed to choose Him and some are designed to reject Him is a glorified way of saying that God created robots that will choose Him and robots that couldn't choose Him--even if they wanted to. I fail to see how that brings God glory.

It isn't a work for me to choose Him. The fact that He allowed and even planned for me to have that choice is itself a Divinely Sovereign work. Jesus said "If I am lifted up, I will draw all men to Myself." And, yet, not all men come, to be saved, by their God-given choice. Paul said to Timothy that God wants "all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth." Peter said similar when he said that God is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." Yet, Jesus reports a different result in His foretelling of what is going to happen in the end of this age, both through the Gospels and in Revelation.

The most amazing part of God's Absolute Sovereignty to me is that He could force everyone, but what would He gain? But, allowing people to choose--something He speaks of over and over again (OT and NT)--and still able to bring about what He promises for those who do choose Him is an absolute show of how powerful and how amazing He truly is! Wow!!!!!! I stand in awe of Him!

Good people = less sin = less grace = less glory for God in salvation = you rob God of his glory.

 

[Pneuma3]

In answer to your questions:

(1) NO! He just knows what is going to happen before it does. And, in fact, He knew it before the foundation of the world.

We are close to being in agreement here.
When God plans out or predestinates something that something is from eternity past and is sure to come to pass just as He planned it all out.

However where man is concerned Gods foreknowledge of mans choice of life or death, keeping His commandments or not, is based on testing and search out the hearts of men. God does not know which choice man will make until the testing.

Think of Abe and the test he went through and it was not until abe passed the test did God ssy unto him, NOW I KNOW, you will withhold nothing from me.

(2) Great question. This is what I believe:

"For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

I believe based on God's foreknowledge, He foreordained individuals. Though this is just coming to me as I respond, I am reminded of King David as a type/shadow of us. He was, within time, foreordained/anointed to be king before he actually became king. God told Samuel that He looks at the heart when He chose David to be the future king.

Why do you see that verse as applying to individuals?
I see it as applying to Christ which is a many membered body.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

There are plenty of people who study their Bible with preconceived notions and end up just as wrong after studying as they were before they started.

This doesn't negate the necessity of biblical study.

 

[Pneuma3]

I believe based on God's foreknowledge, He foreordained individuals.

I disagree. It makes God even more glorified to have people who willfully choose Him than having people who do it simply because they were designed that way.

are these not conflicting thoughts?

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

the truly infinite doesn't have the luxury of random choice

Why would He want "random choice"? He wants those who want Him (Heb 11:6, John 4:21-24, Jer 29:13, for example).

I fail to see how it is a luxury, in the context of what God says through His Word. If all came to repentance and gained the knowledge of the Truth (1 Tim 2:4), would He then want to randomly choose from among them who was going to be saved? Why?

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

This doesn't negate the necessity of biblical study.

Oh, I agree with you. Do you think I would pose such a question without having a Biblically and Spirit-informed perspective?

 

[joshua 1 9]

But, if God writes every page of the book of our life before we are born, how do we truly have choice?

We do not have to follow the book. Some people believe that everyone's name is written in the book of life before the foundations of the world. So their name has to be blotted out of His book in order for people to perish.

Rev3:5 "The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels."

We can live a victorious life or we can choose to be defeated. Some say we can live as an overcomer or we can choose to be overcome. God provides a way for us to live in and through Christ Jesus and the Blood of Jesus. Poured out for us for the remission of sin. (Matthew 26:2)

The bottom line is always going to be the same. We have to produce fruit: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self Control. We are told that the tree or the branch that does not produce fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "produce fruit worthy of repentance" (Luke 3:8)

 

[Mark Quayle]

Absolutely nothing works if we do not have free will. WE have many choices that God requires us to make. We choose life or death, blessing or curse, sickness or health, poverty or prosperity. Everyone of God's promises for us is a choice because we have to do our part and then we can be sure God will do His part of the covenant.

God can not have a covenant with someone that does not have choice. He does write every page of the book of our life before we are born. The Angels and the Holy Spirit helps us to follow that book and God's plan for us. Some people choose not to follow God and they use their gifts, talents and abilities to serve themselves or to server the serpent.

Random really does not exist. Everything in the natural world follows the fibonacci sequence (3 5 8 13) For example sea shells follow this sequence to deal with the forces of gravity. Plants follow this sequence to make best use of the energy from light.

"Free Will" is a much misused term. There is no such thing for mankind, if it means absolute sovereignty. In fact no creature has that.

Only God is absolutely sovereign. He is not subject to anything but himself. Thus the teaching that he is faithful, consistent, etc etc.

I find it curious that even believers admit to being subject to many principles and influences, yet we draw the line at God influencing us, apparently because "he must not" or we don't have free will. Since when is such a "free will" more scriptural than God's sovereignty?

 

[royal priest]

If my will is free, then I am not a sinner.
If I am a sinner and my will is free, then I will that I should no longer sin.
It just doesn't work.
The only thing that works accords with those Scriptures which assert that God chose to free my will from bondage to sin.
Ephesians 2:1-5,
"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive..."

 

[Mark Quayle]

the truly infinite doesn't have the luxury of random choice

True. Nor the excuse of random choice.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Do you believe that you will be saved based on God's foreknowledge of your ultimate choice? OR
Based on God's random choice/selection?

What do you based that on?

You seem to think that those are the only beliefs, and mutually exclusive.

Consider the possibility that for God to foreknow is to forecause. God does not operate within our order of things, perhaps the most relevant to this subject being the fact that he is not subject to time as we are, he being the "inventor" of time for his own purposes.

 

[A_Thinker]

Do you believe that you will be saved based on God's foreknowledge of your ultimate choice? OR
Based on God's random choice/selection?

What do you based that on?

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

are these not conflicting thoughts?

Not at all. Foreknowledge of what we will do/choose is not the same as choosing for us what we will do.

I wholeheartedly believe that some people who have murdered, used drugs, committed adultery, etc, will be found in the Kingdom of God. By Jesus' definitions, I have been guilty of all three (and probably all 10 of the 10 commandments in my lifetime). God didn't foreordain them (or me) to make those choices to violate His commands; but God knew that by their (our) end here on earth, those individuals (and me) when confronted with a choice to make about Him would, repent and come to Him in spirit and in truth and that we would remain in His love. God looks at the heart (1 Sam 16:7), and God can see our end from our beginning or middle.

I would venture to say there are others who have gotten the same grace and the same opportunities that I have gotten. Some may have chosen to come to Him earlier. Some later. And for some, all the opportunities will never drive them into the Word, never drive them to diligently seek God, never drive them to repent. It may actually have the opposite effect to harden them. But, that won't be God's fault, because somehow He foreordained them to reject Him. He will have known they were going to reject Him in the end, so He didn't choose to foreknow them or foreordain them, and in essence simply allowed them, by their ultimate choice, to be vessels fitted for destruction. God knew what Judas was going to do. He even foretold it; but He didn't make Judas make that choice. satan did and God allowed it. When Peter was sifted like wheat, God didn't make Peter reject Jesus. Jesus simply told Him what was going to happen--that satan was going to sift him and that he would reject Jesus. When Jesus blots a name out of the Book of Life (like discussed in Rev 3:5), He will respond to them "I never knew you" (Matt 7:21-27, Matt 25:12). But, for them to be in the Book of Life, He must have known them at some point. God thinks differently than we do. His thoughts and His ways are much higher than ours and His Word never returns void! (Isa 55)