Saved based on God's foreknowledge or God's random choice?

[TCassidy]

Because you've done nothing to prove it wrong.

It is a lie and that alone proves it is wrong.

 

[TCassidy]

I cited it, hoping you would give me your definition of limited atonement.

Asked and answered.

 

[TCassidy]

Plowing is a noble work.....why is the plowing of the wicked sin????

Due to a wrong motive. Why plow? So he can plant his crops. Why plant? So they will grow. Why grow? So he will have food to eat? Why eat? To keep up his strength? Why does he want to keep up his strength? So he can continue his rebellion against God!

 

[Alithis]

No "free will" there.

No "free will" there either.

Still no "free will."

You see, "free will" has nothing to do with making choices. We all make choices every day.

"Free will" is a denial of what Paul says in Romans 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death."

The lost man's will is not free, it is in bondage to the law of sin and death.

And the saved man's will is not free, it is bound to the law of New Life in Christ.

The will is not free. It is in bondage either to the law of sin and death or to the law of New Life in Christ.

Again, as Paul says, in Romans 7:18-23 "For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwells no good thing. For desire is present with me, but I don’t find it doing that which is good.
19 For the good which I desire, I don’t do; but the evil which I don’t desire, that I practice.
20 But if what I don’t desire, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the law, that, to me, while I desire to do good, evil is present.
22 For I delight in God’s law after the inward man,
23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.

He then asks that heart-felt question in Romans 7:24 "What a wretched man I am! Who will deliver me out of the body of this death?"

Then he answers his own question in Romans 7:25 "I thank God through Jesus Christ, our Lord! So then with the mind, I myself serve God’s law, but with the flesh, sin’s law."

All of the above is written to those who had already repented and now obey the Gospel.
Yes.Yes.the gospel is to be obeyed

 

[Pneuma3]

Regarding Romans 8:29, I just see too much individual in that verse. It says "firstborn of many brethren" not "birthed Head of a many-membered body," though both are true. So much of Romans 8 wouldn't pertain if you collectivized it. "For if you live after the flesh, you will die; but if through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live" (Romans 8:13) is individual. "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God" (Romans 8:16) while collective is certainly referring to the Spirit bearing witness to each individual. Each of us should have that same Witness speaking to us, if we are truly His. Throughout the chapter, He is talking in the collective about the individual, not in the collective about the body as members of the whole.

Well who do you believe is the firstborn of many brethren?
And who is the many brethren?

There are individuals in the many membered body of Christ, they make up the neck, shoulders, arms, torso, legs and feet, but collectively they are one body.

And it is this body, head to feet, that God foreknew and foreordained not the individuals in the body.

Thus this body is the firstfruit, which is the promise of the whole harvest.
Thus it is not just the body that will be saved but the whole harvest.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Well who do you believe is the firstborn of many brethren?
And who is the many brethren?

There are individuals in the many membered body of Christ, they make up the neck, shoulders, arms, torso, legs and feet, but collectively they are one body.

And it is this body, head to feet, that God foreknew and foreordained not the individuals in the body.

Thus this body is the firstfruit, which is the promise of the whole harvest.
Thus it is not just the body that will be saved but the whole harvest.

So there is our difference. I think Jesus was made the firstborn and all who are truly "of His body" are also His brethren.

As far as the rest being saved, after punishment, I am still re-investigating.

 

[Loren T.]

Asked and answered.

Where? This is the closest thing I can find, and it's the same as the Calvinists:
"Atonement is sufficient for all but efficient only for believers. When you say "given the opportunity" what do you mean? What opportunity? To accept the Atonement? Can't be. The Atonement is offered to the offended party. God did not offend us so He does not offer us the Atonement. We offended God by sinning so Christ offered to the Atonement to God on our behalf."

Yes, the atonement is only efficient for believers, but under limited atonement, one believes solely because he has been predestined to belief. Which means only those individuals who are pre selected are truely offered salvation. In fact, if you take this to it's logical conclusion, the atonement is irrelevant in your system. God simply pre selected people before creation to be saved. It's a form of fatalism. Whatever will be will be. Under Calvinism, there is no use claiming God is just, because everything is about control, not justice.
This is why Wesley said it makes God out to be worse than the devil because it has God claiming to be no respecter of persons, while at the same time favoring only a select few with an irresistible grace. And damning the rest, through no fault of their own, since they were pre selected for hell.

 

[TCassidy]

So, do you believe everybody will be saved?

Or do you limit the atonement to believers only?

 

[Loren T.]

Yes, the atonement is only efficient for believers,

Christ
115. Do we believe that the atonement is objective?

We do believe that the atonement is a once-for-all objective act, but we say that it is the basis for forgiveness; it doesn’t secure our forgiveness automatically.

116. Was Christ our Substitute?

Christ was our substitute. “He was wounded for our transgressions . . . He died the just for the unjust . . . (Isaiah 53, I Peter 3:18).

117. How would you define the atonement?

The atonement is that gracious act of God whereby Christ, the sinless God-man, demonstrating God’s love for man and hatred for sin, suffered in the place of all mankind, giving His life’s blood to fully satisfy the justice and holiness of God, propitiating for sin, then rising from the dead, destroying the power of sin and death, overcoming the devil, and thereby making it possible that all who repent and believe will be forgiven instead of being punished for their sins, sanctified and (ultimately) glorified.


The unconditional benefits of the atonement are the continued existence of the human race, salvation of infants, and prevenient grace, making salvation possible for all persons.

121. What are the conditional benefits of the atonement?

The conditional benefits of the atonement include justification, regeneration, adoption, the witness of the Spirit, and entire sanctification.

122. Did Christ die for everyone?

Jesus Christ died for everyone. The atonement is universal. I John 2:2 says that Christ made propitiation not only for our sins, but also for the sins of the whole world. 2 Cor 5:15 says that He died for all. Romans 14:15 says that He died for those that may perish. I Tim 4:10 says that Jesus is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

123. Does this mean that everyone will be saved?

Universal atonement does not mean universal salvation. John 3:16 says that God gave His Son . . . so that whoever believes would not perish but have everlasting life. Salvation is conditioned upon our faith.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

based? - maybe there's a better word.

Each of us choose ... God having foreknowledge knows what our choice will be.

Random? That don't even make logical sense to me ... much less spiritual. I mean is God the roulette wheel of humanity?

I agree with you. But, for those who don't believe we choose and who don't believe what we do or don't do has any bearing on His selection, they are left with some selection process that doesn't include either. Random was the only word I could think of that described a process where no foreknowledge (of what you do or don't do, choose or don't choose, think or don't think, say or don't say) has any bearing on the selection.

 

[eleos1954]

I agree with you. But, for those who don't believe we choose and who don't believe what we do or don't do has any bearing on His selection, they are left with some selection process that doesn't include either. Random was the only word I could think of that described a process where no foreknowledge (of what you do or don't do, choose or don't choose, think or don't think, say or don't say) has any bearing on the selection.

My friend .....

Then that eliminates something extremely important ...

God hates sin but loves the sinner.
Romans 3:23

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Psalm 5:5
The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers

Revelation 2:6
Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

God is love - One can not have true love without choice. No one can force one to love another ... we know that among ourselves ... so it is with God. All His created being have choice. He gives mankind choice ... and with that choice he gave His only son to be sin for us that we might be saved through Him. We have the choice to love Him ... or not.

2 Corinthians 5:21

For our sake he made him (Jesus) to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (out of Love -- but it is our choice)

1 John 4:16

And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

Psalm 86:15

But you, O Lord, are a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness.

John 3:16

For God so loved the world (loves everyone that has ever lived and ever will live on this earth), that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (with Him in perfect Love)

Romans 5:8 God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (out of Love)

Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved. (out of Love)

1 John 4:9-11 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

Without Love, by choice .... everything would be meaningless and because of His foreknowledge He knows who will choose love and who will not ... but the choice is ours ... choose true love ... God is love.

May the Lord bring the understanding of His complete, unselfish and divine Love of all mankind. It is not random, it is not forced.

In Jesus name ... Amen

May God Bless you.

 

[Pneuma3]

So there is our difference. I think Jesus was made the firstborn and all who are truly "of His body" are also His brethren.

As far as the rest being saved, after punishment, I am still re-investigating.

actually Johnny i think you must have been misunderstanding me.
I believe who God foreknew is the many membered body of Christ, head to feet, not the individuals in that body for God is no respecter of persons.

glad you are going to revisit all being saved, check out finelinens thread on the restitution of all things, many good post made in it.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

actually Johnny i think you must have been misunderstanding me.
I believe who God foreknew is the many membered body of Christ, head to feet, not the individuals in that body for God is no respecter of persons.

glad you are going to revisit all being saved, check out finelinens thread on the restitution of all things, many good post made in it.

We are handed down pieces of Scripture which are then used in ways that violate the fullness of the counsel of what God gave us.

God is no respecter of persons is one of those verses that has been twisted way out of how it was used by both Peter and Paul. Peter and Paul were consistent in their use. Most modern theology tries to use them opposite to how Peter and Paul used them:

"8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God. 12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves." (Rom 2:8-14)

"1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always. 3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God. 5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter: 6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do....9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: 10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, 11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. 14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven. 17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate, 18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there. 19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee. 20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them. 21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come? 22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee....28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. 29 Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me? 30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing, 31 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God. 32 Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee. 33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God. 34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." (Acts 10:1-6,9-22,28-35--selected verses to provide the full context within which the words were taken)

 

[Pneuma3]

.28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Johnny do you believe any man common or unclean is referring to only those who fear God?

The Jews believed God was a respecter of persons, and those persons God had respect for was the Jews themselves and God had no respect for anyone outside of Israel.

What Peter and Paul both show is that the Jews were in error, no man should be called common or unclean because God has people of every nation that worship him.

God is no respecter of persons, all that come to him via Jesus Christ he will in no wise cast out.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Johnny do you believe any man common or unclean is referring to only those who fear God?

The Jews believed God was a respecter of persons, and those persons God had respect for was the Jews themselves and God had no respect for anyone outside of Israel.

What Peter and Paul both show is that the Jews were in error, no man should be called common or unclean because God has people of every nation that worship him.

God is no respecter of persons, all that come to him via Jesus Christ he will in no wise cast out.

Not sure the point you are trying to make here. I don't see how this removes the individual responsibility to come to Christ? And any and all who do come to Him, by choice, God will accept, because He Himself has told us that He is no respecter of persons through both Peter and Paul.

Personally, I love how He shares it with us through Peter in Acts 10, because it shows how He changed Peter's heart on the subject leading to Peter's new understanding through a vision with Peter's protesting and then immediately coming circumstances. It is like Peter instantly has the blinders removed as Cornelius is explaining why he sent for Peter!

I can't help but think of what would have happened in Acts 15, if not for what God did earlier through Peter in Acts 10 and 11. I believe God started with the highly respected Peter for a reason. I stand in awe of God!

And it is these types of things that make me struggle with the concept of all being saved--even eventually after a time of punishment.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

We agree. That is why I commented that the logic I used " just doesn't work". The sinner's only hope of choosing salvation is for God to make him alive according to Ephesians 2.

But, I don't read Ephesians 2 that way. I don't believe God randomly decides who He is going to give the grace to see Him to. I believe God provides the prevenient grace to all to choose Him, but only those who will choose Him in the end (Based on His full foreknowledge of their life demonstrating the real choice they made with regard to Him not the immediately in-time often-emotional decision of a person) are given the subsequent grace of being born again by God.

Contrary to what some will claim, that doesn't make this a works salvation. I can't boast. Without God's major Gifts, I would still be dead in my trespasses and sins like everyone else. I couldn't have even made the choice without God giving me the grace to see Him and thereby choose Him. But, God doesn't give people His Word and His Spirit to walk like the rest of the world. His Word and His Spirit are not insufficient nor are they lacking effectiveness to do what God sends them out to do. For those who are truly His, not just professing to be for a season, He will accomplish their full salvation with their cooperation.

 

[Pneuma3]

Not sure the point you are trying to make here. I don't see how this removes the individual responsibility to come to Christ? And any and all who do come to Him, by choice, God will accept, because He Himself has told us that He is no respecter of persons through both Peter and Paul.

Morning Johnny, I'm on nights, why are you up so late or early?

We were talking about who God foreknew and foreordained, I see the body of Christ, you individual people. So let me ask you this: do you believe God foreknew you and predestinated you to be saved?

And it is these types of things that make me struggle with the concept of all being saved--even eventually after a time of punishment.

what specifically are you referring to Johnny and maybe I can be of some help. At the very least we can discuss it.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Morning Johnny, I'm on nights, why are you up so late or early?

We were talking about who God foreknew and foreordained, I see the body of Christ, you individual people. So let me ask you this: do you believe God foreknew you and predestinated you to be saved?

I believe the Scriptures. I also believe I have the witness of the Spirit talked about in Romans 8:16.

I was just explaining this to another, so here is what I believe:

I don't believe God randomly decides who He is going to give the grace to see Him to. I believe God provides the prevenient grace to all to be able to choose Him, but only those who will choose Him in the end (based on His full foreknowledge of their life demonstrating the real choice they made with regard to Him not the immediately in-time often-emotional decision of a person) are given the subsequent grace of being born again by God. In time, it may look instantaneous, like "I made a decision and was born again." But, God isn't in time and He already knows our ending. There are many who made a similar decision to mine that will have looked every bit like me for a season, but then will walk permanently away from the faith for whatever reason. If the gifts and calling of God are truly without repentance (or not revoked) as we are told in Romans 11:29, then you can't become unsaved. And, if saving simply made in a one-time momentary decision, then, even if someone renounces God a moment later, God's salvation wouldn't be taken away and they would be bound by their one-time decision. I don't believe that. I believe God wants willing worshippers and isn't desperate to fill heaven with people who pastors and evangelists manipulated once-upon-a-time, but who don't really want Him.

Contrary to what some will claim, that doesn't make this a works salvation. I can't boast. Without God's major Gifts, I would still be dead in my trespasses and sins like everyone else. I couldn't have even made the choice without God giving me the grace to see Him and thereby choose Him. But, God doesn't give people His Word and His Spirit to walk like the rest of the world. His Word and His Spirit are not insufficient nor are they lacking effectiveness to do what God sends them out to do. For those who are truly His, not just professing to be for a season, He will accomplish their full salvation with their cooperation.​

 

[MDC]

But, I don't read Ephesians 2 that way. I don't believe God randomly decides who He is going to give the grace to see Him to. I believe God provides the prevenient grace to all to choose Him, but only those who will choose Him in the end (Based on His full foreknowledge of their life demonstrating the real choice they made with regard to Him not the immediately in-time often-emotional decision of a person) are given the subsequent grace of being born again by God.

Contrary to what some will claim, that doesn't make this a works salvation. I can't boast. Without God's major Gifts, I would still be dead in my trespasses and sins like everyone else. I couldn't have even made the choice without God giving me the grace to see Him and thereby choose Him. But, God doesn't give people His Word and His Spirit to walk like the rest of the world. His Word and His Spirit are not insufficient nor are they lacking effectiveness to do what God sends them out to do. For those who are truly His, not just professing to be for a season, He will accomplish their full salvation with their cooperation.

So Gods grace is merited? So God foresees whether a sinner is genuine in his “choice” and actions as being the basis for receiving this (subsequent) grace? How is this not works salvation? Did you just not flip the meaning of grace on its head? Titus 3:4-7. Faith itself is the result of being regenerated and saved by Gods grace upon hearing the gospel of Christ. How can a spiritually dead sinner go against his own nature apart from God graciously being merciful to him by opening his heart to receive the gospel of Christ? Prevenient grace according to free will theology = NO grace at all

 

[Loren T.]

So Gods grace is merited? So God foresees whether a sinner is genuine in his “choice” and actions as being the basis for receiving this (subsequent) grace? How is this not works salvation? Did you just not flip the meaning of grace on its head? Titus 3:4-7. Faith itself is the result of being regenerated and saved by Gods grace upon hearing the gospel of Christ. How can a spiritually dead sinner go against his own nature apart from God graciously being merciful to him by opening his heart to receive the gospel of Christ? Prevenient grace according to free will theology = NO grace at all

Why does the requirement we are given over and over again in scripture-belief-somehow merit salvation? It doesn't. God is merciful to us, he does open the eyes of our heart. That doesn't mean we can't refuse his mercy. It doesn't mean we can't harden our hearts against him. Faith is not a work. We are saved by grace, (God does all the work) through faith, (which is simply trusting him to do the work) we are not saved by works, unless you are talking about God's work. The idea that this somehow lessons grace, because we merely say "Yes" to the One pulling us out of the pit is silly.