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Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Johnny4ChristJesus, Oct 23, 2018.

  1. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Laughter tells me you cede defeat in this matter.
     
  2. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

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    It has never changed locations..... I thought you have tasted of its fruit since you suggested, with a scripture, that you have obtained eternal life. I guess this is why few find the narrow way huh. We dont know where to look for it... or maybe we stop our search after reaching a certain point to turn around and consider the damned. Yet only those that endure to the end....the same shall be saved........
     
  3. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Dave: I repeat the polus "made sinners" are the identical polus "made righteous". All the passages you quoted totaled 1 (one). Perhaps you can present all the passages that "mention the damnation of most"?
     
  4. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. Luke 13:23–24


     
  5. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Dave: You have finally made a post that is correct. The fact is the vast, vast broken wrecks of Adam die in their sins, never knowing the Glorious One or experiencing His awesome Presence.

    Do you grasp what it means to be in/en Jesus? If you do, you will surely appreciate that every knee, every mouth, in every dimension of the universe of heavens & earth and underworld ultimately worships Him in willing worship of antiphonal chorus IN/En the Name of all names. This worship is NOT by perfunctory genuflections but unrestrained worship IN His mighty Name!
     
  6. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Including the reprobate angels.......on their way to hell.
     
  7. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Dave: Try to expand your limited borders of the limited god of yours and learn a new koine word.

    The word for today= ta panta. Not "panta" standing alone, but "ta" preceeding it.
     
  8. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

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    I guess it is easy to discuss the damned than to discuss the way to life.
     
  9. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    By these three prepositions Paul ascribes the universe (ta panta) with all the phenomena concerning creation, redemption, providence to God as the...

    Ex= The Source

    Di= The Agent

    Eiv= The Goal

    The Koine, ta pavnte, is the strongest word for all in the Scriptures; it literally means the all.

    Romans 11:36=

    ta pavnte/ ta panta, "in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the all things, the universe, and, everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming."

    It is not in the limited sense of "nearly all", "pavnte" minus "ta

    The final preposition [eiv) reveals the ultimate goal of all that is. What has been provided in Christ is a re-turn, a re-storation, a re-newing, a re-demption, a re-concilation, a re-surrection, a re-stitution.

    The prefix "re" means back again, again, anew--and all the words with this prefix speak of something that left its place and has now made its circuit and come back to the point of its beginning.

    In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;.... down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis
     
  10. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <Clem>...The IVA ("that") is used in Jn.3:17 above. BDAG says “In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the *divine will*…” ἵνα — с греческого на все языки
    The IVA also occurs in Phil.2:9-11:
    Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (NASB)<end>

    Now let us see what BDAG actually says about the "ina" in Phil 2:10 and following. see link above.

    ①ⓑThe fut. ind. is also used oft. when ἵνα has no final mng., esp. in Rv: 1 Cor 9:18 (ἵνα as answer, as Epict. 4, 1, 99); Rv 6:4, 11; 9:4, 5, 20; 13:12; 14:13; 22:14. Occasionally the fut. ind. and aor. subj. are found in the same sentence Rv 3:9; cp. also Phil 2:10f v.l.
    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 475–477). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

    NIV, ASV, ESV, ISV Php 2:10
    (10) that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
  11. Kerensa

    Kerensa Well-Known Member

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    I don't enjoy throwing that word around either — not least because I already do believe in universal salvation (as I was trying to imply earlier). :)
     
  12. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Karensa: I delight in speaking of the One who grasped me for Himself. There are many mansions in Father's House, or places of abode. These various dimensions of fellowship with Him & He with us, reach to areas beyond, beyond of being saved to the uttermost down to the broadest base of His Glory.

    Everything we possess in Him must come by the revelation of His Spirit as He moves us towards the Goal of knowing Him in unrestrained avenues of fellowship. May His mighty love & grace be yours today as one of the malista of His purposes!

    The whole of created life shall be delivered/set free/ emancipated from the tyranny of change & decay..
     
  13. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    There is nothing disressing about God's divine attributes or eternal nature. God's communicable attributes are the only way the sinner can come before God righteous, holy and blameless. Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the light, but so many refuse to come to the light because their deeds are evil. A message that doesn't preach repentance vcan never approach the gospel, it's predicated on man's guilt before God in the light of the revelation of the righteousness of God found only in Christ. Your peddling false hope, God's divine nature cannot change and some men love darkness rather then light. Tnhe whole premise is contrary to the most basic element of the gospel.
     
  14. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    “Do not add to his words, lest he reprove you, and prove you to be a liar.” (Proverbs 30:6)
     
  15. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Mark: Repentance is granted by the Lord. It begins not with us, but in the One who leads His broken and bruised home to Himself!

    This truth is sure, and worthy of acceptance by all; for on account of it we labour and contend for the prize; because we hope on a living God, Who is a Saviour of all men, especially of faithful. Command and teach these things."

    "Faithful is this saying and deserving of universal acceptance:and here is the motive of our toiling and wrestling, because we have our hopes fixed on the ever-living God, who is the Saviour of all mankind, and especially of believers. Command this and teach this."

    "We place our whole confidence in the living God, the saviour of all men, and particularly of those who believe in him. These convictions should be the basis of your instruction and teaching."
     
  16. Kerensa

    Kerensa Well-Known Member

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    No-one's adding to His words. "Ta panta" is in the original Greek of Romans 11:36 — meaning THE all (as in absolutely everything) is from Him and to Him and through Him.

    Same goes for Romans 5:19. It also has definite articles in the original, even though many translations don't. It actually reads "For by one man's disobedience [i.e. Adam] THE many [i.e. all people] were made sinners, so by the obedience of one [i.e. Christ] shall THE many [i.e. all people] be made righteous."

    How much more clearly could Paul have said it? "For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive." (1 Cor. 15:22)
     
  17. Solomon Smith

    Solomon Smith Active Member

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    It’s clearly not God’s plan to save the whole world otherwise the whole world would believe.

    God’s plan is to save the elect.
     
  18. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You need to balance what you think with the rest of the bible. Did God save the Canaanites? Sodom and Gomorrah? The Jews in Jerusalem in the great tribulation of 70 AD?
     
  19. Kerensa

    Kerensa Well-Known Member

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    How do we know what has happened to all those individuals since, or will in time to come? And which part of ALL don't you understand? :)
     
  20. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I hear what you are saying. Here is the problem. Show me one human who wasn't first born in or through the loins of Adam. All of us are born in the flesh through Adam. BUT...

    Jesus said: "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again." (John 3:3)

    What does that mean?

    Jesus answered: "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." (John 3:5-7)

    All in Adam (every human) All in second Adam (all who are born of the Spirit).

    Jesus continued: "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:14-18)

    So, if your understanding of Paul's writings are correct, why did Jesus suggest say that people would remain condemned and perish, if they didn't believe in Him?

    What do you interpret "apollumi" to mean, if not perish (for those who don't believe and therefore aren't born of the Spirit?

    So, that which is born of the flesh (in Adam) is flesh (in Adam)--which all humans are. AND,
    That which is born of the Spirit (in Christ) is spirit (in Christ)--which all true believers are.
     
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