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Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Johnny4ChristJesus, Oct 23, 2018.

  1. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    For those who think God's plan is to save the world, why did Jesus pray only for those God gave Him and those who would believe in Him through their word? (John 17)
     
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  2. Jeshu

    Jeshu Bought by His Blood Supporter

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    Humanities Salvation

    Psalms 86: 11-13 "Teach me your way, Lord, that I may rely on your faithfulness; give me an undivided heart, that I may fear your name. I will praise you, Lord my God, with all my heart; I will glorify your name forever. For great is your love toward me; you have delivered me from the depths, from the realm of the dead."

    Every Christian believer knows that God is Spiritual. Not many realise; however, that we have a spiritual side as well. We are a spirit existing in and through the life giving Spirit of God. Not only did God make us living beings, as humans we all proceed from Him, truthfully all people are His offspring (Acts 17:28)

    Genesis 2:7 "Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."

    It is for this reason that The Word warns us about what kind of spirituality we walk with. For not only is God Spiritual, the devil is spiritual too and we can grow our life in his spirituality as well. Now life in The Spirit of God is Eternally Good and life giving, but the spirituality from the devil is mortal, debase, dysfunctional and deadening.

    It should therefore come as no surprise that death and dying is being cut off from the life giving Spirit of God. Indeed our lives can only have existence in Him; however spirituality from satan has been thrown out of Heaven and can only have existence for a life span on this earth after which it is judged and thrown in the pool of fire.

    Revelation 20:11-15 "Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

    The truth is that our lives belong to God. He has given shape to us and invested much time and effort in us! (just see Psalms 139) Not only that, He paid for us (1 John 2:2) and saved us from eternal hell.

    1 Timothy 4:9-10 "This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance. That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe."

    I believe that God harvests the human spirit from all the good spirituality that people have heeded. Spirituality that had originally been sown by His Spirit into peoples hearts. Loving and caring spirituality , for example, or times of compassion or kindness - all good comes from Him and so God harvests each soul where all that is good in a persons life is taken from them! While bad is left behind to receive judgement. (Matthew 25)

    More than that! An unbelieving person has existence in lies, lies that kill true being and raise false being up instead. The righteous die but no one takes notice! Isaiah mourns in Chapter 57. Indeed the righteous die to be spared from evil but the offspring of the wicked stands condemned!

    Isaiah 57:1-4 "The righteous perish, and no one takes it to heart; the devout are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil. Those who walk uprightly enter into peace; they find rest as they lie in death. “But you—come here, you children of a sorceress, you offspring of adulterers and prostitutes! Who are you mocking? At whom do you sneer and stick out your tongue? Are you not a brood of rebels, the offspring of liars?"

    When God harvests our souls then He judges untrue being and brings true being back to life. So effectively, He saves even the soul of the atheist by judging the atheist who had life in lies and putting that spirituality to death. After which He raises the true person, which the lies of Satan killed, from the dead and gives that one charge over the spiritual being that God saved through Jesus Christ. In this way the atheist will still be judged for his or her foolish beliefs and for killing the chosen! Nevertheless the true person that the atheist had put to death within receives all the good things that the atheist had stolen from him or her when Christ resurrects the true person. Untrue being punished and gone, true being restored and in charge. (Rev 19-20) In this way every person has been saved! Psalms 22:27-31, Psalms 64:9, Isaiah 25:7-8, Daniel 7:14, Luke 3:6, John 12:31-32, Acts 3:25, Romans 5:18, 1 Timothy 2:4, 1 Timothy 4:9-10, Titus 2:11, Colossians 1:20 and 1 John 2:2. (All praise to Jesus for making all things right!)

    So that The Word speaks true when it prophecies that;

    Romans 14:10-12 "You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgement seat. It is written: “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’

    So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God. However, in this way, all that has life in lies dies and is washed off, so nothing of the unbelieving person's reality is saved. Rather what the unbelieving person had put to death or had stolen within their own God given lives – because they believed/loved satan lies – is now raised to life and given kingship over such a soul again.

    Revelation 20 :1-6 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

    As Paul teaches Timothy, the fact that God has saved humanity has special benefit to us believers. For now we can die to the spirituality of the lie and come to life in God's Spirit instead of satan's. To be born again means that your soul is being shaped by faith in Jesus, where bad life has turned to good life for salvation. Jesus is the saviour of all people. Yet not one sinner will escape judgement. All sinners will be judged for their ungodly lives and for murdering the chosen within them. Our God is a just God, who repays people in accordance with what they have done. The wicked will not get away with perverting the hearts and minds of people, rather they shall be judged for it. Isn't Judgement Day going to be a great Day? When all of us become true beings again, where all untrue self is done away with! I can't wait for that great day of liberation – the liberation of God's children.
     
  3. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This prayer is not said to be for salvation but unity:

    John 17:20 But I do not ask for these only, but also for those believing in Me through their word, 21 that all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

    The purpose of that unity is "that the world may believe that You sent Me".

    IOW the purpose of the prayer in v.20 is that the world may be saved. Will that prayer be answered?

    John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

    John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself.


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  4. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thanks for the continued challenge to look at things differently, ClementofA. So, then, do you see judgement as Jeshu sees it in the response above yours?
     
  5. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "Saved" means what to you?
     
  6. Jeshu

    Jeshu Bought by His Blood Supporter

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    That God's own will not be lost but will be resurrected from the death to reign with Him.
     
  7. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Jn 3:16

    And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
    1Jn 4:14

    He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 1Jn 2:2

    Enough said?
     
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  8. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't see that. I see God's will as always done.
     
  9. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So why is there a judgment of the wicked from your perspective?
     
  10. Jeshu

    Jeshu Bought by His Blood Supporter

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    Yes God's will must be done and it is His will that all people be saved.

    1 Tim 2:4
    "who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."
     
  11. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    Because God is just.
     
  12. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Wants and will are different things. Competing desires lead to priorities. God wants people who will worship Him in spirit and truth. That requires free will. Robots without free will can lift their arms and sing, but that isn't worship in spirit and truth, because they have no control over their actions. They are making no choice to worship Him.

    Jesus could have said: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son so that ALL would be saved." (an alternative John 3:16) BUT, He didn't.
     
  13. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We can talk circles around this all day.

    I believe God is just. I also believe God is Absolutely Sovereign, so that nothing can happen without His permission. He makes the rules. He chose that those who truly believed in His Son would receive the atonement He made for sin and those who didn't would receive judgment. So, God is enforcing what He said He was going to enforce. He is just to do that. But, if He wanted to save everyone in the whole world, then not including that requirement to believe would have ensured His desire for all to be saved and come to a knowledge of Him would be fulfilled, period.
     
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  14. grasping the after wind

    grasping the after wind That's grasping after the wind

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    Since He is who He will be, nothing we opine changes anything. I must assume that we aren't meant to know with surety exactly what God intends in detail. I am satisfied with the knowledge God has decided to allow us access to. It is sufficient for His purposes and for our individual salvation or we would be privy to more. If he has decided to save all, I would be pleased, but I cannot say that He has or has not decided anything he has not specifically told us in no uncertain terms and what he has told us leads to a degree of uncertainty on that. Just exactly what He has decided and how he has decided His will be carried out may well be too complicated for us to understand and therefore knowing only a shadow of the complete picture, we cannot come to a consensus on the subject due to a lack of certain, unambiguous knowledge of every detail. In the end what we can be certain of on this subject of whether or not all humanity will eventually be saved is not of vital importance as our knowledge of something has no effect on God's will for that thing.
     
  15. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Jeshu: The passage you have quoted is a mite stronger than "wants"! The koine is thelo" God wills all mankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth.

    I personally am inclined to believe The Will of all wills prevails!

    The Last Adam, the Lord Christ, restores the mass (the polus) "made sinners" in the 1st Adam and makes that same mass (the polus) "righteous".

    From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists & in Him the all ends..

    Not only panta, but "ta" preceding it.

    Romans 8:20 - For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2018
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  16. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Johnny: there is a small word in the following you should consider.

    "Especially"= malista

    "God is [the] Saviour of ALL mankind"

    ESPECIALLY

    those who believe/trust in Him. Command this & teach this."

    "It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him.And you..."
     
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  17. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    [/QUOTE]
    I agree it is more than just wishful thinking, something God is fond of, but really defining it is difficult since we have this:
    NASB Translation
    am...willing (1), am willing (3), delighting (1), delights (1), desire (14), desired (4), desires (4), desiring (2), intended (1), intending (1), like (3), maintain (1), mean (1), mean* (2), please (1), purposed (1), refused* (1), unwilling* (11), want (52), wanted (15), wanting (3), wants (8), will (5), willed (1), willing (15), wills (4), wish (24), wished (7), wishes (16), wishing (4), would (1).

    I see it more like this when talking about God's "want":

    God is doing everything possible to bring about the desired result, so God is not even partly to "blame" for the wrong happening.
    God "will" is for all mature adults to have enough autonomous free will to fulfill their earthly objective, but if they would not be happy in heaven God is not going to force them to go to heaven.
     
  18. Halbhh

    Halbhh The wonder and awe of His Creation! Supporter

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    Only those truly willing to do "love one another" (at least truly willing, even if imperfect right now) could possibly be able to do well in an eternal life (harmony instead of conflict). And only with a willingness to forgive, trust (faith is a powerful form of trust), could they continue to do well in an eternal life. He calls with love, and only some will answer the call of ultimate love. Those truly wanting that eternal love. For those answering that, this world has plenty of suffering (for the open hearted), and we need His prayer in John 17.
     
  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If He had it would have been redundant, since that is what verse 17 implies:

    John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

    John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself.
     
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

    Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

    Conclusion: All will be saved

    True or false?

    Supporting verses:

    Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases(THELO) (Psalm 115:3).

    Whatever the LORD pleases(THELO), He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps (Psalm 135:6).

    "So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire(THELO), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).

    1 Timothy 2:4 + God does all He desires = all will be saved?
     
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