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Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Johnny4ChristJesus, Oct 23, 2018.

  1. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    By these three prepositions Paul ascribes the universe (ta panta) with all the phenomena concerning creation, redemption, providence to God as the...

    Ex= The Source

    Di= The Agent

    Eiv= The Goal

    The Koine, ta pavnte, is the strongest word for all in the Scriptures; it literally means the all.

    Romans 11:36=

    ta pavnte/ ta panta, "in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the all things, the universe, and, everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming."

    It is not in the limited sense of "nearly all", "pavnte" minus "ta

    The final preposition [eiv) reveals the ultimate goal of all that is. What has been provided in Christ is a re-turn, a re-storation, a re-newing, a re-demption, a re-concilation, a re-surrection, a re-stitution.

    The prefix "re" means back again, again, anew--and all the words with this prefix speak of something that left its place and has now made its circuit and come back to the point of its beginning.

    In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;.... down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis
     
  2. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    God does desire that all be saved but those who go on to perdition have exaused the patience of God. The wholebworld will be saved but only after the children of perdition are consigned to the lake of fire. Universalism has but one doctrine and it's a profoundly flawed false hope, that all will be saved. This runs contrary to the clear testimony of Scripture that the wicked are raised to everlasting shame and contempt. When Lucifer is cast into the fires of perdition God does not rejoice, he grieves. You can't believe the New Testament doctrine of final judgment and still maitain a belief in universalism, to two worldviews are mutually exclusive.
     
  3. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Mark: It is so distressing contemplating the Eternal One unable to bring His desires into completion.

    "This truth is sure, and worthy of acceptance by all; for on account of it we labour and contend for the prize; because we hope on a living God, Who is a Saviour of all men, especially of faithful. Command and teach these things."

    "Faithful is this saying and deserving of universal acceptance:and here is the motive of our toiling and wrestling, because we have our hopes fixed on the ever-living God, who is the Saviour of all mankind, and especially of believers. Command this and teach this."

    "We place our whole confidence in the living God, the saviour of all men, and particularly of those who believe in him. These convictions should be the basis of your instruction and teaching."
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
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  4. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Mark: Perhaps equations will be more comprehensive for you?

    "For as by one man's disobedience the polus were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall the polus be made righteous."

    Note

    The identical mass made sinners in the first Adam, made righteous in the Last.

    Adam1 the polus made sinners>>>>>>>>

    Last Adam the polus made righteous.

    Every last one!
     
  5. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I did. You posted a website. Staring me in the face was the first bullet. So, when a guy leads with a lie, which that undoubtedly is--since JESUS HIMSELF SAID THE OPPOSITE, I don't have to read further.

    Here's the problem. Whether you or I or anyone else likes it, JESUS came to earth and spoke. When JESUS spoke, the Apostles recorded what JESUS said, whether they liked it or not, as well. JESUS spent time talking about a place called Gehenna while here. JESUS talked about branches of a vine that were once necessarily part of a vine being cut off and burned. JESUS warned that if part of your body was sinning, it was better to cut it off than for your whole body to go to Gehenna. JESUS said other things, too, including giving a glimpse of Hades (not Gehenna, but certainly a place of suffering)and Paradise (Abraham's bosom, which was a place that the rich man desired to be, but couldn't go, according to Abraham, because of a FIXED GULF between the two that prevented either from crossing to the other side).

    JESUS, then, came back and gave Revelation to John. in Revelation, a representative for JESUS talked about the Lake of Fire, called it the Second Death, and shared that everyone not written in the LAMB's Book of Life being cast into it with hades, (the first) death, the devil, the beast, and the false prophet.

    Furthermore, Jesus says things like this: "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. I can do nothing by Myself; I judge only as I hear. And My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me." (John 5:28-30)

    Things like that certainly seem to support the other things that JESUS said regarding consequences.

    I don't need there to be a hell/Gehenna/Lake of Fire. I'm just happy God chose to wake me up. I certainly didn't deserve it. But, if what I believe is not true, JESUS Himself, through His Word, led me to believe it. He didn't have to say a word about the topic, if it wasn't true. And, my Bible says that God is not a man that He should lie. Even when Moses asks to see God's face and God announces HImself, He includes "and will by no means clear the guilty...." (Exodus 34:7) Why would His only begotten Son lie or intentionally deceive me into believing their was going to be a place of punishment if there wasn't? And, if this is all a big mis-translation, then God please forgive me, because of my language and translation deficiencies. But, my focus has always been to be with Him, not to escape hell. I do my best, regardless of whether others are looking or not, to live a life before Him that demonstrates my desire and the focus of my life is to be with Him. When I get to be with Him, I'm not going to make sure there was hell. I am quite sure that I won't care, because it has no bearing on my relationship with God. My focus will be on Him, even moreso than it is now, based on what I read in Scripture. Whether or not others get hell has no bearing on whether or not I love Him. I can accept Him as all that He is, either way, because I understand He is God and I am not. And, frankly, because He is God, whether I accepted Him as He is or not, won't change Him one iota, it only has ramifications for me!

    However, if your view is correct, it won't change anything for you. But, if there is a Gehenna/Lake of Fire and if it is the polar opposite to heaven, so you live in one of the two realms forever by your choice. And, if the that "forever" reality is as bad or worse than what the rich man was experiencing in the story Jesus told in Luke 16 (rich man and Lazarus), then think about some of the things you have said about God and called God Himself? If you find out there is such an unending place where people are subject to unending punishment, do you really want to be held accountable for what you have said about Him? And what will you stand on?
     
  6. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Goat Whisperer Supporter

    +6,594
    United States
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    Married
    US-Republican
    Obviously we know that all will not be saved because the Bible talks about the wide road going down to the hot place and the narrow road going up to heaven it ain't rocket science.
    M-Bob
     
  7. Kerensa

    Kerensa Well-Known Member

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    For me it comes down to this. There are verses in the Bible that, taken literally, say that some will be saved and some will be damned. There are verses in the Bible that, taken literally, say that ALL will be saved.

    Two statements that completely contradict each other can't both be true. We each have to decide for ourselves which should be accepted as the literal truth and which should be interpreted a different way.

    Given what I know firsthand (even if it's still only a little) of God's unending love and saving power, I know which of those options I believe, absolutely. :glowingstar:
     
  8. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    All of the promises made to Abraham are yes in Jesus. They include the salvation of the whole world, not just the Jews. So we must balance this against the fact most will perish. So we find the balance in the promises being said yes to in Christ. Jesus died for all who believe in him, paying their debt to sin fully. He did not die for those who do not believe in him, or else they would be free from the debt of sin.
     
  9. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +841
    Non-Denom
    Dear Kerenza: I have walked with the Glory One for many moons now. The Scriptures may seem contradictory but they are one expression of the One whose ways and Being far surpass all of us.

    The translation "damned", which some enjoy throwing around is found in the KJV & means judgement. There is a biggie difference in the two words in degrees of outstanding significance!

    Damnable, Damnation, and Damned - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

    I know this: The Father of all fathers, whose essence is LOVE/FIRE/SPIRIT/LIGHT & RECONCILIATION does all things well. The consummation of His great Plan brings satisfaction to His Heart & will ultimately bring fulfillment to every last broken wreck of Adam1, every last one, including all dimensions of the heavens, the earth & the underworld.

    My friend Jonathan Mitchell, author of the J.M. Translation has spent over 22 years of his life in this endeavor.

    The Word [is] full of faith (or: Faithful {Trustworthy} [is] the word) and worthy of all welcomed reception,

    10. for into this [end] are we constantly working hard unto weariness, and are continuously struggling in the contest (contending for the prize; other MSS: being reproached), because we have placed our expectation (hope) and thus rely upon a living God (or: upon [the] living God), Who is (exists being) [the] Savior (Deliverer; Rescuer; Restorer to health and wholeness) of all mankind ‑ especially of believers (of ones full of faith and trust; of faithful ones)!


    11. Be constantly announcing these things to those at your side, passing them along from one to another, and keep on teaching them!
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
  10. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +841
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    Dear Dave: The Master of Reconciliation is the propitiation for every last rebel, every last broken wreck of Adam. You may not know the difference between monon and malista, but alas there is a vast difference indeed!

    "He is [the] propitiation for our sins

    AND

    Not for our sins only/monos/monon

    BUT

    For the sins of the whole world."


    Yes Dave, the Master is the hilasmos of the holos.
     
  11. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +841
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    Dear Mountain: Obviously ta panta is wrong. Obviously the Source, Guide & Goal is not the all, but "panta" minus "ta": obviously!
     
  12. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Whole world = gentiles, not Jews only.
     
  13. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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  14. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why isn't everyone saved if he died for all sin. including the sin of unbelief?
     
  15. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

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    Christ is the light that lighteth EVERY MAN that cometh into the world. So who, alive, does not belong to Jesus? Who was not given to Christ?

    And Christ will not lose a one....save the son of perdition......
     
  16. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +841
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    Dear Dave: You must learn to be patient! The entire polus made sinners in Adam 1 are the exact polus "made righteous" in the Last, the Master of Reconciliation.

    "..the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you..."
     
  17. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So you believe everyone gets saved in the end?
     
  18. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Dave: In the end all lost sinners, every last rotten one of various degrees of depravity are reconciled, changed, transformed made righteous: the entire polus!

    Would you like me to present the scope of ta panta again?
     
  19. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Okaaaay. We have a universalist who cannot reconcile the loss of the many with the salvation of the few. So he ignores all the passages that mention the damnation of most.
     
  20. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

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    Does the thought of this sadden you? That one who comes in at the last hour would obtain the same reward you believe yourself to receive?
     
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