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Featured Save everyone?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Johnny4ChristJesus, Oct 23, 2018.

  1. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    IYO how does Jeshu see judgement? I believe God's judgements are always corrective & for the good of the offenders, not hopeless, endless, pointless, sadism.

    "Why does my whole being react with horror at such a belief?"

    "Because it’s such an evil position to delight in the suffering of others. It reveals the wicked heart and character of a person who would do so. Rather than the heavenly father being happy with the suffering in hell… rather than this suffering INCREASING His bliss, He is “not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.” "

    A Fearful Thing

    "That any should suffer forever, lingering on in hopeless despair, and rolling amidst infinite torments without the possibility of alleviation and without end; that since God can save men and will save a part, he has not proposed to save all-these are real, not imaginary, difficulties. . . . My whole soul pants for light and relief on these questions. But I get neither; and in the distress and anguish of my own spirit, I confess that I see no light whatever. I see not one ray to disclose to me why sin came into the world; why the earth is strewn with the dying and the dead; and why man must suffer to all eternity. I have never seen a particle of light thrown on these subjects, that has given a moment's ease to my tortured mind . . . I confess, when I look on a world of sinners and sufferers- upon death-beds and grave-yards- upon the world of woe filled with hosts to suffer for ever: when I see my friends, my family, my people, my fellow citizens, when I look upon a whole race, all involved in this sin and danger- and when I see the great mass of them wholly unconcerned, and when I feel that God only can save them, and yet he does not do so, I am struck dumb. It is all dark, dark, dark to my soul, and I cannot disguise it." -- Albert Barnes

    Practical Sermons Designed for Vacant Congregations and Families
    By Albert Barnes [p.123ff]
    Practical Sermons Designed for Vacant Congregations and Families

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
     
  2. Karola

    Karola Active Member

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    Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practise magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practises falsehood. Rev22:14&15

    Who are the people outside of the new Jerusalem?
     
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  3. JimBeta

    JimBeta Active Member

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    Gods plan is to save everyone, free will does not agree with that
     
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  4. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    I haven’t seen anything saying the world will be saved. John 3:17 says so that the world may be saved. Indicating everyone has the opportunity to be saved not that everyone will be saved.
     
  5. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    [QUOTE="bling, post: 73311827, member: 216174

    I agree it is more than just wishful thinking, something God is fond of, but really defining it is difficult since we have this:
    NASB Translation
    am...willing (1), am willing (3), delighting (1), delights (1), desire (14), desired (4), desires (4), desiring (2), intended (1), intending (1), like (3), maintain (1), mean (1), mean* (2), please (1), purposed (1), refused* (1), unwilling* (11), want (52), wanted (15), wanting (3), wants (8), will (5), willed (1), willing (15), wills (4), wish (24), wished (7), wishes (16), wishing (4), would (1).

    I see it more like this when talking about God's "want":

    God is doing everything possible to bring about the desired result, so God is not even partly to "blame" for the wrong happening.
    God "will" is for all mature adults to have enough autonomous free will to fulfill their earthly objective, but if they would not be happy in heaven God is not going to force them to go to heaven.[/quote]

    Dear Bling: God forces nothing! He also brings to pass His purposes in complete union with His desires flowing out of His essence. Furthermore He takes complete responsibility for the process from beginning to end.

    Thelo - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

    "It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you..."
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
  6. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Dear Bling: God forces nothing! He also brings to pass His purposes in complete union with His desires flowing out of His essence. Furthermore He takes complete responsibility for the process from beginning to end.

    Thelo - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

    "It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you..."[/QUOTE]

    Good to hear from you again, Fine Linen. Thanks for sharing what you believe!
     
  7. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Karola, thanks for sharing. I've wondered that, too. Could it be those who claimed Jesus, but chose to hang onto sin OR do you believe it is "all others"? If all others, then it includes Holy Spirit blasphemers and those who took the mark of the beast and worshipped the beast, right?

    So, then do you believe God circles around after the "second death" and then saves everyone else to the lower estate--on the outside?
     
  8. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do you think that "free will doesn't agree with that" in the absence of things Jesus Himself said? You speak of "free will" as a curse; but it isn't. It is a blessing to us and God. We aren't just robots, we get to choose Him! For Him, it makes worship genuine, not automated/controlled.
     
  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This states the purpose of Love Omnipotent's - divine will - in sending His Son:

    For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

    The IVA ("that") is used in Jn.3:17 above. BDAG says “In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the *divine will*…” ἵνα — с греческого на все языки

    The IVA also occurs in Phil.2:9-11:

    Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (NASB)

    What is the "world" in Jn.1:29; 3:17, 4:42 according to BDAG? According to BDAG by "world" in such verses is meant "humanity in general". Jesus Himself would be the only exception:

    The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (Jn.1:29)
    They said to the woman, "We now believe not only because of your words; we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man truly is the Savior of the world. (Jn.4:42)
    For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

    And BDAG again, re Rom.5:18, is quoted in this commentary:

    "Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter
    he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10
    ...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

    "Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108

    108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

    "The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's
    "obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"
    ...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor;
    (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which
    "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins
    ...Isa.53:11..."

    "It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."

    (Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
     
  10. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    From 1-3 above it follows that

    4. God didn't create anyone capable of ever becoming unsavable
    5. God will continue to seek & to save the lost postmortem
    6. Love Omnipotent will continue to seek & to save the lost in Hades & the LOF ("hell").
    7. God didn't predestine anyone to be lost forever
    8. God didn't foreknow anyone would be lost forever
    9. God has made it impossible that anyone could reject Him forever
    10. God will continue to seek & to save the lost till the last lost one is saved.

    Love Omnipotent has all eternity to wait & keep trying to save people. And given His willingness & ability to draw men to Himself an infinite number of times through eternity, it is mathematically impossible for anyone to reject Him an infinite number of times. Each time the man has a free choice to choose or reject God there is a chance he will choose God. Given an infinite number of such chances, the odds are impossible that he will not eventually choose God. So all will be saved.

    "God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

    ------------------------

    “He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

    “How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols

    -----------------


    "God did not leave anything to chance, he's not a gambler he's an investor and that investment reaps dividends every time, if it takes a fundamentalist eternity to so."

    "Who is stronger? Man with his free will or God who will have all men to be saved?"

    According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.

    Love will conquer all.

    If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

    Proof for the Teaching of Christian, Biblical Universalism:
    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
     
  11. Eloy Craft

    Eloy Craft Myth only points, Truth happened! Supporter

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    Is it possible that God could reveal Himself to someone in as much as they can receive Him and they still reject Him? Yes. The Jewish leaders were doing just that to Jesus. If God reveals Himself fully and is yet rejected, what more can God do? This is the unforgivable sin. The sin of the fallen angels and men.
     
  12. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As you know, I disagree with your conclusions, though I am certainly still re-examining some facets of the issue. I went to the website marked "web-online help" and the first claim was "Christian hell is a hoax". Frankly, it is hard to take a website seriously that directly contradicts the words of Jesus--words He didn't have to speak, if they weren't true.
     
  13. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I understand your beliefs. I just don't agree that is what Scripture teaches. It isn't a matter of who is stronger. There is no question that God is. God is the one who wanted us to have free will so we could choose Him. If He had created man without free will, we wouldn't even be considering this topic. None ever would have fallen short, we wouldn't have needed rescue. We would just do what was wired into us. When God wanted us to choose Him, God chose to let us do the opposite as well. He was clear about the consequences either way. Nobody will be able to blame God. He even has ordained a way to circle back for those who He didn't know. I just haven't heard any convincing evidence yet that it includes ALL humanity. Jesus certainly paid the price for all, but God didn't let it be without catch.

    You tried to claim John 3:17 says something it doesn't. The world is already judged. We were all on our way to hell. God provided a way that we all don't have to go there. But, He didn't make that way "fool proof" and I believe He chose not to do that intentionally! If someone wants to reject Him outright, after all God did for us, then they deserve to live without everything that is from God--all good gifts, including life. I am still shocked that some people want to circle back and blame God for the obnoxious ignorance of some men. That isn't God's fault. They got to make their choice and probably more than once.
     
  14. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Premise #1 is correct. It is Scripture.

    Premise #2 is not correct and is not backed in Scripture. In fact, there are many things that God desires to do that He refrains from doing that Scripture speaks to. The fact that He says He is long-suffering should make that clear.

    Therefore, the conclusion, at least based on those premises is not supported.
     
  15. Devin P

    Devin P Well-Known Member

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  16. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Did you read only the link title "Christian hell is a hoax" without clicking on it & reading any part of the article? The very first things it says are:

    "Exhaustive Verse-by-Verse Examination of the Hell Scriptures"

    "Introduction: I Dont Ignore Any Scriptures"

    Web Online Help

    BTW, just because i links to an article or website does not indicate i am in 100% agreement with everything it says, even when i quote from one, which i didn't in this case. I suggest, instead, addressing what i have posted on the forum.
     
  17. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    My post you were responding to didn't mention John 3:17. Neither did you state - how - i tried to claim it says something it doesn't. No quote of mine was provided by you to substantiate that claim. Moreover where did i ever claim anything about John 3:17, let alone what you say?
     
  18. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    It's what you left out that tells the whole story:

    John 3: NASB

    14“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

    16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”
     
  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Premise #2 was exactly - word for word - what Scripture says. Yet you claim it is "not correct and is not backed in Scripture", while providing no Scriptural evidence to support your claim.

    Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

    Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

    Conclusion: All will be saved

    True or false?

    Supporting verses:

    Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases(THELO) (Psalm 115:3).

    Whatever the LORD pleases(THELO), He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps (Psalm 135:6).

    "So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire(THELO), And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:11).
     
  20. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Jim: God not only has a plan to save everyone; His plan is to make the mass of mankind (the polus) "made sinners" in Adam 1 righteous. This is the equation>>>>>the polus made sinners are the identical polus "made righteous" in the Last Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Free Will

     
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