Salvation vs : service.

[Ligurian]

While I’ve done more research on the Kingdom Gospel, one problem that comes up when the gospels of Jesus and Paul are separated is that a few will end up regarding Paul as a complete apostate while possibly misconstruing and wrongly emphasizing the role of the law, while others will view Jesus as preaching an Old Covenant gospel of law without grace to a different audience and Paul as preaching a gospel of grace that they may even take to mean that man’s no longer required to fulfill his obligation to be personally righteous. And neither are true. The whole purpose of the gospel is for us to come to see that we cannot fulfill our obligation to be righteous, to be who we were created to be, to be lawful (without the necessity of even being aware of the law), apart from grace. “Apart from Me you can do nothing”- John 15:5. That’s the essence of the New Covenant.

And the church, for its part, moved centuries ago from the idea of a millennial reign of Christ on earth even though, for a while, such a theocracy actually might’ve seemed to be happening as the church spread and grew in temporal power in earlier times. This turned out to be a mixed blessing, of course, and more of a curse in fact as the church would eventually learn the hard way. But either way while the idea of a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth had many early proponents and opponents in the church, ever since Augustine, who changed his own views on the matter, until today, it’s had virtually no support within the Catholic church and has been denounced in fact, FWIW. It’s taught that evil will increase towards the end and the church will be persecuted before Christ’s 2nd coming after which His reign will be eternal, His kingdom not being of this earth to begin with. Then the kingdom is completely fulfilled. But His kingdom is everywhere, and beginning here, among us. We're to work to bring it about now in any case, opposing evil and spreading and realizing the gospel of His love that He's authored within us.

First of all I commend you for your courage.
Second, those who think that what Jesus taught is 613 laws of the OT are delusional, since every place Jesus speaks the words, "But I say unto you..." He is changing that law, if not replacing it. All throughout the OT, God was testing them by what He allowed... I think Moses kept up that testing by what Jesus says was allowed.

But the changes Jesus made can all be summed up in the meaning behind "My yoke."

Matthew 11:28-30 Come unto Me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For My yoke [is] easy, and My burden is light.

yoke = pair of balances; easy = better, gracious;
burden = task or service; light = smaller.

The same Greek word translated yoke above is in this following verse:

Revelation 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

And so, I began to believe that this rider is the false prophet.

Back to church history. Ephesus' love waxes cold because of what she roots out. Smyrna has martyrs. Pergamos has martyrs and the devil, idols and a hierarchy. Thyatira has Jezebel and the deep things. Sardis is not quite dead... Philadelphia is the church of the open door. The "church of the Laodiceans" (named for the people) where Jesus stands outside.

Revelation 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. ... 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
(same Greek word)
Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Not just any woman/wife, since Jesus says only those to whom celebacy is given can keep it... so the obvious intent is the strange women Solomon talked about... meaning other religions = idolotry. This same theme runs through the churches of Revelation, but skips Smyrna and Philadelphia... is this what Ephesus rooted out?

Yeah, I know... but I was on a roll.

 

[Ligurian]

Ligurian, I have not seen anything wrong with your doctrine, and your responses to arguments show me you Spiritually understand what you are stating.

You appear to think there are different Gospels being preached between what Lord Jesus taught and what the Apostle Paul taught. I do not see that difference, and I believe Paul agrees with you more than you think.

However, even if you do reject the writings of Paul, and hold onto the teachings in the Gospels and that of Peter, John, James, and Jude, you still have the compete Gospel, and so you do not err in that regard.

Three Passages I believe you would like of Paul are as follows:

Romans 1:5 (NIV) 5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

Romans 16:25-26 (NIV) 25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith

Acts 26:20 (NIV)
20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.

This would agree with Lord Jesus' command to preach a Gospel of faith in obedience to all nations

Matthew 28:19-20 (WEB) 19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

A true Christian walks in the light of God's Spirit, only these are cleansed by the Blood of Jesus.

1 John 1:6-7 (WEB) 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

disciples of Lord Jesus are Christians

Blessings

I cannot take stand-alone verses from two different gospels and make them into one coherent doctrine. Either all of the pieces fit or some have to be mangled... ... Take two boxes of jigsaw puzzles and make all of the pieces into one picture, with no pieces left over and no holes in the picture... This last scenario would be far easier than the first one.

 

[setst777]

I cannot take stand-alone verses from two different gospels and make them into one coherent doctrine. Either all of the pieces fit or some have to be mangled... ... Take two boxes of jigsaw puzzles and make all of the pieces into one picture, with no pieces left over and no holes in the picture... This last scenario would be far easier than the first one.

Thanks for your reply.

I have studied Paul's writings, and I can say to you that I do see coherency and complete harmony in the Gospel Doctrine that Paul taught, when read in context.

What stumps a lot of people about Paul's letters is that Paul compartmentalizes his teachings into separate parts in his letters, which Bibles put into chapters. But if you read each of his letters from beginning to end, as all letters should be read, I see nothing different in his presentation of the Gospel than Lord Jesus or any of the other Apostolic Writers.

Blessings

 

[Ligurian]

Because Eternal life is not a time period, ligurian.
Eternal Life is JESUS, Himself.
This is why He told you, that if you will become born again, "i give unto you, Eternal Life".
How does he do that?
He comes to live INSIDE the "born again", and the born again become "One with God".

See that?
Thats how.

Jesus says that the Father's commandment is life everlasting, John 12:50.

John 14:15-17 If ye love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:24 He that loveth Me not keepeth not My words: and the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father's which sent Me.

 

[The Liturgist]

There are no denominations in Heaven.

That’s partially true, in that the Church Triumphant is united, but the church militant is divided needlessly because of pointless doctrinal disputes over things the early church settled more than 1,000 years ago.

However, this division is not related to the denominations, many of which exist in full ecumenical fellowship and full communion and merely represent different traditions of worship, all of which are beautiful and special, and these beautiful forms of worship, all of which are correct worship (orthodoxologia), I believe will continue in the eschaton.

 

[Ligurian]

Does that mean you don't follow Luke either, since he's the one who wrote all about Paul's ministry? Or Peter since he said, "And regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you". 2 Peter 3:15

Luke isn't a Galilean Apostle.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;

 

[fhansen]

Ligurian, I have not seen anything wrong with your doctrine, and your responses to arguments show me you Spiritually understand what you are stating.

You appear to think there are different Gospels being preached between what Lord Jesus taught and what the Apostle Paul taught. I do not see that difference, and I believe Paul agrees with you more than you think.

However, even if you do reject the writings of Paul, and hold onto the teachings in the Gospels and that of Peter, John, James, and Jude, you still have the compete Gospel, and so you do not err in that regard.

Three Passages I believe you would like of Paul are as follows:

Romans 1:5 (NIV) 5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

Romans 16:25-26 (NIV) 25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith

Acts 26:20 (NIV)
20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.

This would agree with Lord Jesus' command to preach a Gospel of faith in obedience to all nations

Matthew 28:19-20 (WEB) 19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

A true Christian walks in the light of God's Spirit, only these are cleansed by the Blood of Jesus.

1 John 1:6-7 (WEB) 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

disciples of Lord Jesus are Christians

Blessings

And more from Paul:
“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.”Rom 8:12-13

 

[fhansen]

Second, those who think that what Jesus taught is 613 laws of the OT are delusional, since every place Jesus speaks the words, "But I say unto you..." He is changing that law, if not replacing it. All throughout the OT, God was testing them by what He allowed... I think Moses kept up that testing by what Jesus says was allowed.

Some specific laws He taught included the Ten Commandments, which, along with other of His commands, the ancient churches continued to affirm as obligatory to this day. And the greatest commandments, which He taught all the law and prophets hang on anyway, and again, which the ancient churches have continued to teach as obligatory. They, as Jesus, uphold the basic moral law which God wrote on tablets of stone apart from the rest of the Mosaic law.

 

[setst777]

And more from Paul:
“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.”Rom 8:12-13

Yes. There are so many Passages like that from Paul in almost every letter he wrote, including warnings to the believers against sinful acts with the threat that such would not be saved.

One such Scripture, out of many:

1 Corinthians 10:1-12 (WEB)
10 Now I would not have you ignorant, brothers and sisters, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 and were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ. 5 However with most of them, God was not well pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should
not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.”Exodus 32:6 8
Let us not commit sexual immorality, as some of them committed, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell.
9 Let us not test Christ, as some of them tested, and perished by the serpents.
10 Do not grumble, as some of them also grumbled, and perished by the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened to them by way of example, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands be careful that he does not fall.

To “fall” is to be lost.

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB)
11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that Rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

 

[Ligurian]

Thanks for your reply.

I have studied Paul's writings, and I can say to you that I do see coherency and complete harmony in the Gospel Doctrine that Paul taught, when read in context.

What stumps a lot of people about Paul's letters is that Paul compartmentalizes his teachings into separate parts in his letters, which Bibles put into chapters. But if you read each of his letters from beginning to end, as all letters should be read, I see nothing different in his presentation of the Gospel than Lord Jesus or any of the other Apostolic Writers.

Blessings

Having been there and done that, I am not stumped by Paul's writings. I just fail to see how saved by grace apart from works lest any man may boast has even one thing to do with the hearers of the law going on to doing the law and being therefore justified by works. Paul talks in a negative fashion about the latter... which is precisely what Jesus teaches in every place He tells us to keep His commandments. Most specifically in Matthew 7:24-25, with its polar opposite standing in Matthew 7:26-27... which pretty much sums up people like Sidon of Paul's group... especially with Matthew 7:23 saying they prophesied and cast out demons in Jesus' name... isn't that exactly what Paul teaches... and completely anomia, at that? Yes, it is. So how are those not two entirely different gospels to two very different peoples?

 

[Sidon]

Luke isn't a Galilean Apostle.

Good moot point.
I have not said Luke was anything.

 

[Sidon]

However, this division is not related to the denominations,.

Im not into denominations.
Im into something different.
This...John 8:32

So, if you want to chase denominations, then that is your free will.

 

[Sidon]

Jesus says that the Father's commandment is life everlasting, John 12:50.

Yes ......the word of God is never ending.

The WORD manifested in the flesh.... who is God, is Eternal Life.
Jesus is Eternal Life.
If you dont have Him in you, then you dont have eternal life.
Commandment keeping is not related to "The Gift of Salvation".

 

[Ligurian]

Yes. There are so many Passages like that from Paul in almost every letter he wrote, including warnings to the believers against sinful acts with the threat that such would not be saved.

One such Scripture, out of many:

1 Corinthians 10:1-12 (WEB)
10 Now I would not have you ignorant, brothers and sisters, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 and were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ. 5 However with most of them, God was not well pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should
not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.”Exodus 32:6 8
Let us not commit sexual immorality, as some of them committed, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell.
9 Let us not test Christ, as some of them tested, and perished by the serpents.
10 Do not grumble, as some of them also grumbled, and perished by the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened to them by way of example, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands be careful that he does not fall.

To “fall” is to be lost.

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB)
11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that Rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

And that's another thing that needs an explanation. If Paul is the apostle to the gentiles, how is it that he thinks the fathers of the gentiles were captives in Egypt? And please don't try to pass it off as spiritual fathers, because that dog won't hunt.

 

[Sidon]

Do you speak Hebrew and have an Hebraic copy of the New Testament?

I speak some Hebrew, and i have access to a Hebrew Old Testament and a Hebrew New Testament.

I dont use Hebrew on USA Forums, and i dont use the Hebrew Old or New Testament for personal study.

Its an interesting concept that you must consider..........its that when in Rome do as the Romans Do.

So, if this forum were Hebrew or Greek Speaking vs English Speaking, then that would suggest to our common sense why we would be using Hebrew or Greek texts.

And of course is the same reality found when you realize that if you dont speak Greek, and you show up on a christian forum trying to correct the English BIBLE with a language you dont read, then you are just being a fraud.
A Spiritual fraud.. (the worst type).
See, only a devout fakir is going to pretend to be a greek authority, when they can't even read Koine Greek.
Avoid them.

 

[Sidon]

It seemed you may’ve been suggesting otherwise in post #68 so I asked whether faith is an obligation or not.

Faith is not an obligation.

People do not go to the Cross feeling Obligated to give God their faith.
They go, because they have been made aware by the Holy Spirit that they are LOST, and that Jesus is the only WAY to get out of that situation.
So, they give God their FAITH in Christ, and He resolves their damnation, and replaces it with Eternal life.
This is the "Gift of Salvation".

 

[Sidon]

And that's another thing that needs an explanation. If Paul is the apostle to the gentiles, how is it that he thinks the fathers of the gentiles were captives in Egypt? And please don't try to pass it off as spiritual fathers, because that dog won't hunt.

Its your theology that is keeping you from the Truth.

Try this. Paul said that Abraham is the "father of our faith"., as "Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was counted to him AS Righteousness".

See that?
That is "Justification by Faith".

Welcome to Paul.

 

[setst777]

I just fail to see how saved by grace apart from works lest any man may boast has even one thing to do with the hearers of the law going on to doing the law and being therefore justified by works.

I understand the issue you are raising, but please read my reply in response to your concerns.

You referred to Ephesians 2:8-9, but you have to read through to verse 10 to get the full context Paul is conveying.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (WEB) 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, that no one would boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.

Paul is saying that no works we can do can justify us before God. However, if one truly believes in God, then, by faith, we have repented, and now live to obey God. Those who do not believe will not obey God.

In fact, a person cannot even receive the Holy Spirit until they first believe in (to love) Lord Jesus demonstrated by obeying Him.

Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

Acts 2:38 (WEB) 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John 14:15-17 (WEB). . . 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth

John 14:23 (WEB) 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

Only by Faith, like unto Abraham, does God justify. God accredits righteousness to those who believe.

Genesis 15:6 (NIV)
6 Abram believed the Lord, and He credited it to him as righteousness.

So, what does faith mean? That is the question. To have faith in God is to love God. In the New Testament Gospel, a true faith in God is to believe in (to listen to and follow) His Son.

Faith includes repentance, which is demonstrated by a complete change of mind and purpose for living). The believer denies the old life of selfish ambitions, and now commits to become a slave of God, holy (being separate or sanctified) onto God for the purpose of obeying Him, living a righteous life of Love. This is what Paul taught throughout all his letters. For instance, see:

Romans 6; Romans 13:11-14; Romans 12:1-2; 1 Corinthians 9:22-27; 1 Corinthians 10:1-12; 1 Corinthians 15:1-2; 2 Corinthians 13:5; Galatians 5:13-25; Galatians 6:7-9; Ephesians 5:1-20; Philippians 2:14-16; Philippians 3:7-12; Colossians 3:1-17; 1 Timothy 4:16; 1 Timothy 5:11; 2 Timothy 2:19; Hebrews 3:6; Hebrews 3:12-15; Hebrews 3:14; Hebrews 12:14-17, and so many more Passages of instruction all through Paul’s letters.

Paul talks in a negative fashion about the latter... which is precisely what Jesus teaches in every place He tells us to keep His commandments.

Yes; however, the “US” that Lord Jesus is telling to keep His commandments are those who believe in Him.

Do we not see all through the Gospels how the Lord Jesus commands and admonishes the people to repent and to believe in Him to receive eternal life?

Lord Jesus clarifies what He means by “believe” by saying that those who believe are the same ones who are His disciples, which is, to listen to and follow Him, obeying all things He commands of us.

Faith is demonstrated by following Jesus, resulting in eternal life. This is the same exact teaching of The Apostle Paul.

Most specifically in Matthew 7:24-25, with its polar opposite standing in Matthew 7:26-27... which pretty much sums up people like Sidon of Paul's group... especially with Matthew 7:23 saying they prophesied and cast out demons in Jesus' name... isn't that exactly what Paul teaches... and completely anomia, at that? Yes, it is. So how are those not two entirely different gospels to two very different peoples?

Many Christians say they have faith in "Jesus," but will not demonstrate their faith by following Lord Jesus into a sanctified life of righteousness and love. That is not the faith of the Gospel, nor of the Apostle Paul.

• Those who put their faith in Lord Jesus will listen to Him, and will follow Him.
• An unbeliever will not listen to the Words of Lord Jesus, and will not follow Him. Faith is demonstrated in obedience.
• Unbelief is demonstrated in resisting God, and refusing to follow Him.
• This is the teaching of Lord Jesus, and is the same teaching of the Apostle Paul.

Blessings

 

[setst777]

And that's another thing that needs an explanation. If Paul is the apostle to the gentiles, how is it that he thinks the fathers of the gentiles were captives in Egypt? And please don't try to pass it off as spiritual fathers, because that dog won't hunt.

Paul is not saying the Gentiles were captives in Egypt; rather, as Paul stated, the disobedient Jews of that time are an example to the Church of what God detests, and so not to follow in their ways.

 

[Sidon]

However, if one truly believes in God, then, by faith, we have repented, and now live to obey God. Those who do not believe will not obey God.

Why would you think that any new Christian would not understand that after they are saved, they are supposed to live for God.

However, the baby Christian is often deceived by a dark light, who ruins their faith, by convincing them that they have to keep commandments and produced constant self effort, or they will lose their salvation.
So, when a person is trying to be good, and do a lot, so that God will keep them, then this person is "fallen from Grace" and is "in the Flesh".

Discipleship, is what we do because we have been eternally accepted by God, based in His shed blood.

When a dark light flips this Grace, into, "now here is the next step, so that you dont lose your salvation" then this person is controlled by the Devil.
See, its the devil who wants you under the commandments and the law, as if you are back in the Old Testament.

God does now want you there, and that is why He authored the New Testament, with His Blood that redeems you from all self effort to try to get God to accept you and keep you.