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setst777

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I believe it can be taken to extremes if there's little to no balance. I think there's a problem if faith and salvation seems to be mainly or only defined as works and performance though self reliance.

My messages were directed to Sidon, who is clearly teaching a very liberal Christianity. So, naturally, I was attempting to show him his error by dialogue and Scripture.

However, the good Christian that you say you are, you took occasion to start opposing me for upholding the faith. And, not only that, but I repeatedly quote several Scriptures about the blood of Christ, and explained to Sidon about the ransom that Christ purchased for us.

One of those Scriptures was:

1 John 1:6-9 (WEB) 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and do not tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

I must have quoted that Scripture at least five times in my replies to Sidon.

Yet, you opposed me for upholding the Gospel, and the Gospel Faith. I wonder why you would do that?

In a previous dialogue I had with a universalist, you opposed me against him as well.

So, I wondered about your claim of obedience and perseverance, and hoped you had finally converted to the Truth. Yet, here you are, still opposing me and others who are warning and teaching about the Gospel Faith in Lord Jesus, accusing me, and them, of extremism, just because I am defending the faith.

I do not need you to judge me. If you were truly as obedient and committed to Christ Jesus as you say you are, we should be working together to uphold the faith in these dangerous times. But that is not what I am seeing from you.
 
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GOD Shines Forth!

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ozso

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My messages were directed to Sidon, who is clearly teaching a very liberal Christianity. So, naturally, I was attempting to show him his error by dialogue and Scripture.

Seems to me he's teaching pretty much what Dr. Charles Ryrie and Dr. Charles Stanley teaches. I've never heard of them being referred to as liberal Christians.

However, the good Christian that you say you are, you took occasion to start opposing me for upholding the faith. And, not only that, but I repeatedly quote several Scriptures about the blood of Christ, and explained to Sidon about the ransom that Christ purchased for us.

Sidon is just as convinced that he's the one upholding the faith. And I've questioned and challenged him as well in other threads. Any objection to that?

One of those Scriptures was:

1 John 1:6-9 (WEB) 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and do not tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

I must have quoted that Scripture at least five times in my replies to Sidon.

Yet, you opposed me for upholding the Gospel, and the Gospel Faith. I wonder why you would do that?

In a previous dialogue I had with a universalist, you opposed me against him as well.

So, I wondered about your claim of obedience and perseverance, and hoped you had finally converted to the Truth. Yet, here you are, still opposing me and others who are warning and teaching about the Gospel Faith in Lord Jesus, accusing me, and them, of extremism, just because I am defending the faith.

I do not need you to judge me. If you were truly as obedient and committed to Christ Jesus as you say you are, we should be working together to uphold the faith in these dangerous times. But that is not what I am seeing from you.

I found that to be rather extreme was well.
 
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ripple the car

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The funny thing is I sounded Orthodox years before I joined the OCA, because in seminary I focused on Patristics and also took some exchange courses to get away from the majority of elective courses that focused on various liberal theologies, and to avoid the cognitive dissonance of being a conservative in a liberal denomination I created an Orthodox-inspired bubble around myself, and instead of writing sermons, edited the various ancient homilies by the likes of St. Chrysostom, St. Gregory Nazianzus, St. Ephrem the Syrian, and others, as well as more recent sermons by Protestants I like, such as John Wesley, compacting them so as not to exceed 15 minutes (my notoriously short sermons were short because of the attention span of modern congregants; my theory was if I could fit a usable and coherent message, taken from an ancient homily, either part of it or the whole thing, or in the case of some short metrical homilies by the likes of St. Ephrem or Jacob of Sarugh, more than one, into 15 minutes, it would likely work, and if it failed, at least the boredom of the people would be limited.

Just out of curiosity, are you a Maronite Catholic or a convert to Orthodoxy from the Maronite church? Because one ministry I have considered, based on my enthusiasm for all forms of Lebanese, Arabic and Syriac Christianity, is forming a Maronite Orthodox Vicarate, (which would tick all three boxes) like the Western Rite Vicarates in the Antiochian church and ROCOR, not because of any disrespect for Maronite Catholics, but rather, because in the United States, I have found it incredibly hard to find Maronite parishes with traditional liturgies, and while I am not myself Maronite or even Lebanese, I love the Maronite people, and I can’t be the only one who finds this frustrating.

Also, they’ve been promising to bring back the Liturgy of Peter (Sharar) for decades now, and it still hasn’t happened, and young people will forget it, and the traditions associated with it, which are unique because unlike the other Maronite anaphoras, it is East Syriac rather than Antiochene in form, like the Assyrian or Chaldean liturgies. So if I could find a dozen or so Maronites who want the liturgy to be celebrated with traditional music, with the same reverence one associates with Antiochian Orthodox or Syriac Catholic or Chaldean liturgics, in a city with no Maronite parish that is respectful of traditional Maronite worship, including A Capella harmony and the use of some West Syriac in the liturgy, I would do it, mainly because if it was a success it would cause the Maronite churches in the Diaspora to make their liturgics more on a par with those in the Old Country.

Of course, it would be ideal if I could find a disaffected Maronite Priest or Deacon or a Maronite convert to the Antiochian church (my understanding is Maronites and Syriac Orthodox don’t get along well, like Copts and Assyrians, there is some rivalry), who shared my interest, who spoke Arabic, and who I could empower financially and otherwise (I am on good terms with bishops who would support such a venture and receive or ordain someone who wanted to do it).

But before I do that, I have to either complete my current mission of setting up a traditional Congregational church using the beautiful 19th-20th century ultra high church liturgy of Reverend John Hunter of the King’s Weigh House, to set right what the UCC is doing wrong and to atone perhaps for my not leaving the UCC sooner; it was the comma advertising campaign that made me want to leave, but due to misguided loyalty I hung on until the impending retirement of the senior pastor, so he would have time to select a replacement junior pastor and thus partially compensate for the likely very different beliefs of his replacement. But I think I should have thrown in the towel as soon as the Comma advertising campaign started, and then immediately pursued another career working for a different church.

So… I think there’s a safety in the Catholic Church and within the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches which we simply can not have or replicate by trying to piece together our own church based on traditional things which appeal to us. Or which we want to see more of within an Apostolic Church, but don’t.

I really do think there is something God-given, Holy, authoritative, and True that has been given to and through these Churches. If you can come back to Eastern Orthodoxy, I would.

You can still appreciate the good stuff that many Protestants have gotten right over the years, and recognize them as fellow Christians. That’s what I do.
 
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Ligurian

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Salvation is God's blood making you righteous.

That is not your obligation, that is God's Gift of Jesus on the Cross.

You obligation, is to "work out your salvation, in awe and wonder".
This is your discipleship.
Its the entire time you are saved, and are breathing whereby you learn how to exist as a Son of God, on this earth, according to the Spiritual Law of the Kingdom of God that is DEFINED as : being "under Grace" and not 'Under Law".

So now it’s not necessary to even have faith? And if you were referring to Phil 2:12 there I’d suggest using a better Bible.

Yep. It's "fear and trembling"... I don't even follow Paul anymore and I still remember that verse off the top of my head. And there's nothing in the original Greek which would allow the words "awe and wonder" to be a substitute. Maybe Sidon's not a fan of the whole fear of God thing? Like I said... in for a rude awakening.

__________________
While we're at it, want to finish this conversation we were having? :
__________________________________
Ligurian said:

What do you do with Matthew 28:18-20?
__________________________________

To which you replied:
"You'll have to enlighten me here-I don't see the conflict so far."
How to walk in the Spirit.

My point is that the Kingdom Gospel was supposed to be preached in the whole world even after Jesus came back from Heaven after the Resurrection, because that's what Jesus was preaching from the time JohnB went to jail. The message to the circumcision stays the same.
 
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Ligurian

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Seems to me he's teaching pretty much what Dr. Charles Ryrie and Dr. Charles Stanley teaches. I've never heard of them being referred to as liberal Christians.



Sidon is just as convinced that he's the one upholding the faith. And I've questioned and challenged him as well in other threads. Any objection to that?



I found that to be rather extreme was well.

I quoted this:
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

To which Sidon replied:
"God is not interested in your "patience".
He only interested in your Faith in Christ.
He will accept you for no other reason."
How to walk in the Spirit.

Kinda too bad Romans uses the word patience, right?
 
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fhansen

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Yep. It's "fear and trembling"... I don't even follow Paul anymore and I still remember that verse off the top of my head. And there's nothing in the original Greek which would allow the words "awe and wonder" to be a substitute. Maybe Sidon's not a fan of the whole fear of God thing? Like I said... in for a rude awakening.

__________________
While we're at it, want to finish this conversation we were having? :
__________________________________
Ligurian said:

What do you do with Matthew 28:18-20?
__________________________________

To which you replied:
"You'll have to enlighten me here-I don't see the conflict so far."
How to walk in the Spirit.

My point is that the Kingdom Gospel was supposed to be preached in the whole world even after Jesus came back from Heaven after the Resurrection, because that's what Jesus was preaching from the time JohnB went to jail. The message to the circumcision stays the same.
Im sorry but I’ll have to research “Kingdom Gospel” a bit more now. I keep learning of more gospels! :)
 
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Ligurian

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setst777

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Seems to me he's teaching pretty much what Dr. Charles Ryrie and Dr. Charles Stanley teaches. I've never heard of them being referred to as liberal Christians.

Sidon is just as convinced that he's the one upholding the faith. And I've questioned and challenged him as well in other threads. Any objection to that?

My objection is that you think you have the right to challenge others about what you believe is a corruption of the faith, yet do not label yourself as an extremist as you do others who do the same.

I do not need you to judge me. If you were truly as obedient and committed to Christ Jesus as you say you are, we should be working together to uphold the faith in these dangerous times. But that is not what I am seeing from you.

I found that to be rather extreme was well.

Working together to uphold the faith against liberalism in not extremism, unless you think that Lord Jesus and the Apostolic Writers were extremists as well. If that is the case, then count me in as an extremist, because I am sold out to Lord Jesus.

My purpose in this life is to serve Him, even on this board. What is your purpose for living and being on this board? Don't say it is to defend and uphold the faith, because you have made it obvious to this board that this is extremism, which you oppose.

And no one is denying the cross, or hiding it. I did not hide it or deny it, but quoted about the ransom and the blood of Christ in my posts on this board, yet you included me in your accusation, calling it extremism.
 
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Ligurian

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Jesus said in John 15:7-9 "If you remain in Me and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. This is to My Father's glory that you bear much fruit, proving yourselves to be My disciples. As the Father has loved Me, so I have loved you. Remain in My love".

Jesus also said in John 15:4 "Remain in Me, and I will remain in you. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me".

He also warned in Matthew 7:19 that "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

St Paul wrote in Galatians 5:22-23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is joy, love, peace, forbearance, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law".

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these words of Mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

Context is everything.

Fruit in the Kingdom Gospel is works.

I agree with you in that we have to read the Bible in its proper context, but Jesus's message here is emphatic and very clear. We have to continue abiding in Him and remaining faithful to Him if we ever hope to be saved.

Of course... what did I say that would make you think otherwise?
Oh... I think it's probably what I didn't say, regarding Galatians 5:22-23.

The Kingdom Gospel says this is what the Holy Spirit does:

Matthew 3:16, Matthew 12:28, John 14:15-17, John 14:26, John 15:26-27, John 16:7-15. John 20:21-23, Revelation 11:11, etc.
 
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setst777

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Oh... I think it's probably what I didn't say, regarding Galatians 5:22-23.

You did well, but I would include Galatians 5:24-25 as well:

Galatians 5:22-25 (WEB) 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.
 
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Ligurian

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You did well, but I would include Galatians 5:24-25 as well:

Galatians 5:22-25 (WEB) 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

Which is a moot point for me, since I don't follow the apostle to the gentiles.
 
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setst777

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You won't find Paul's "my Gospel" in John, because he got it from Jesus by revelation, personally. No other apostle has a "my gospel".

Paul’s “My Gospel”

Are you saying the Gospel of John and Paul's Gospel are different?

For over three years while Lord Jesus was teaching His Disciples on earth, did not Lord Jesus reveal all things to the Apostles in secret that, after His glorification the Apostles were to proclaim openly?

Matthew 10:27 (WEB) 27 What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear whispered in the ear, proclaim on the housetops

Did not the Spirit remind and teach the Apostle John, and the other Apostles, of all Lord Jesus told them in secret and desired for him/them to know, so that what John wrote was God-breathed inspiration from the Holy Spirit?

John 14:26 (WEB) 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things, and will remind you of all that I said to you.

So what do you think Lord Jesus revealed to Paul that He did not fully reveal to His beloved Apostle John and the other Apostles?
 
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setst777

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Which is a moot point for me, since I don't follow the apostle to the gentiles.

Interesting. Do you feel the apostle to the gentiles taught a Gospel that was different than what the other apostles taught in their Gospels and letters?
 
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GOD Shines Forth!

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Are you saying the Gospel of John and Paul's Gospel are different?...So what do you think Lord Jesus revealed to Paul that He did not fully reveal to His beloved Apostle John and the other Apostles?

I linked that article because it explains it better than I can.
 
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ozso

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I quoted this:
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

To which Sidon replied:
"God is not interested in your "patience".
He only interested in your Faith in Christ.
He will accept you for no other reason."
How to walk in the Spirit.

Kinda too bad Romans uses the word patience, right?

Faith in Christ supersedes all else.
 
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ozso

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ozso

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James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Faith in Christ supersedes works. I can't believe I'm having to write that.
 
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Ligurian

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Faith in Christ supersedes works. I can't believe I'm having to write that.

Can't have one without the other, according to Matthew 7:24-27...

Sadly, I can believe I'm saying this, because nobody else seems to have read those verses... even when they quote from the verses above that one about fruit. In these verses, en masse, works are fruit. And the only way to tell tares from wheat is literally by its fruit.
 
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