Salvation vs : service.

[ozso]

Can't have one without the other, according to Matthew 7:24-27...

Sadly, I can believe I'm saying this, because nobody else seems to have read those verses... even when they quote from the verses above that one about fruit. In these verses, en masse, works are fruit. And the only way to tell tares from wheat is literally by its fruit.

I've seen Matthew 7:24-27 posted umpteen times of CF. The fruit Jesus speaks of in Matthew 7 is that of false prophets.

Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves. 16 By their fruits you will know them. Do you gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree produces good fruit, but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit. 18 A good tree can’t produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that doesn’t grow good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. Matthew 7:15-20

I believe Jesus then goes on to say what will become of these false prophets:

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will tell me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?’ 23 Then I will tell them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity." Mathew 7:21-23

"He who does the will of My Father who is in heaven" Matthew 7:21

“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:40

Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.” Matthew 7:24-27

 

[Sidon]

And there's nothing in the original Greek

There is no such thing as the "original greek", but dont let that stop you.

 

[Sidon]

(shrug) I still want to know why you said "Eternal life Hung on The Cross."

How to walk in the Spirit.

Is English your mother tongue?

Because Eternal life is not a time period, ligurian.
Eternal Life is JESUS, Himself.
This is why He told you, that if you will become born again, "i give unto you, Eternal Life".
How does he do that?
He comes to live INSIDE the "born again", and the born again become "One with God".

See that?
Thats how.

 

[ozso]

I’d suggest using a better Bible.

It seems people say that a lot, but they never seem to say which Bible they think is a better Bible.

 

[Sidon]

Eucharist is a Biblical term for something Jesus Christ commanded us to do to inherit eternal life .

Eating communion is not how you "inherit eternal life".
If that were true then a cookie and wine would have hung on the Cross for you.

Keep in mind that Jesus said to do it "in remembrance"..
Look that up.
"remembrance".
Thats symbolic....so, when a man or a denomination tries to make you believe that what is symbolic is EQUAL to the literal Cross and the Christ who hung on it, then : Galatians:1:8

 

[ozso]

Yep. It's "fear and trembling"... I don't even follow Paul anymore

Does that mean you don't follow Luke either, since he's the one who wrote all about Paul's ministry? Or Peter since he said, "And regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you". 2 Peter 3:15

 

[Sidon]

I identify myself on my CF.com profile, right to the left of my posts, as a Christian. If anyone asks, I am an adherent of traditional, high-church Congregational Christianity, possibly the only extremely high church congregationalist minister who is also a traditionalist; there are other high church liturgical Congregationalists, but they are in the UCC (for example, the clergy at the Cathedral of Hope in Dallas, who are liturgical, but theologically as far away from me as anyone could possibly get). I myself do not object to the existence of denominations or communions or churches, as I prefer to call them, except for those which teach false doctrine, but among the good churches, I celebrate their diversity.

These communions are more than a grouping of like minded churches, but also a promise: if I go to a parish of the Armenian Apostolic Church, Southern Baptist Convention, or the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, or the Orthodox Church in America, or the Anglican Province of Christ the King, or the Assyrian Church of the East, or the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, or the Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church, I know I am going to a traditional church which is pro life and teaches Biblical doctrine on human sexuality, and what is more, I also know the specifics of their beliefs and what their worship is going to be like. This makes them much more appealing than going to an anonymous Non-Denominational church.

There is also a mainline Protestant church called The Christian Church, which is related to another called The Disciples of Christ, so these generic terms are not as useful as you might think.

There are no denominations in Heaven.
Denominations are only found on earth, where man created them, and gave them interesting titles.

 

[Sidon]

So now it’s not necessary to even have faith?

Justified by faith, without the deeds of the law.

Its necessary to have that., if you want to go to heaven.

 

[Sidon]

It seems people say that a lot, but they never seem to say which Bible they think is a better Bible.

All the great preachers and all the great revivals are strictly related to the use of the KJV.
Find a great preacher....... study this, and you'll find that they were "called" when hearing someone preach from a KJV.
Every true revival, that has occurred since 1617, is connected to the preaching of the KJV.

The KJV, is the only Bible you can print for free, as the word of God should be free.

I use it for many reasons i wont state here, except for this one...... i was called using it.

 

[fhansen]

It seems people say that a lot, but they never seem to say which Bible they think is a better Bible.

Ive said it once, mimicking the practice of the OP incidentally, and the reason should be obvious enough in this case to anyone who’s read more than one version, including the KJV. It’s easy enough to check out. And as a side note while I appreciate the KJV for its literary value, red flags go up whenever I find someone obsessed with it as having superior value for understanding the Christian faith.

 

[fhansen]

A convert to preaching commitment, obedience and perseverance, while leaving the Cross, the Blood and the Resurrection of Christ out of the message? No.

I practice commitment, obedience and perseverance, and I encourage others to do likewise. But to me the Cross, the Blood and the Resurrection of Christ comes first and foremost.

As it should, we can’t find it within ourselves to commit, obey, and persevere without the atonement.

 

[fhansen]

Justified by faith, without the deeds of the law.

Its necessary to have that., if you want to go to heaven.

It seemed you may’ve been suggesting otherwise in post #68 so I asked whether faith is an obligation or not. It seems now that we agree that it is an obligation. Either way I’d maintain that working out our salvation is likewise an obligation, while both are also gifts -grace that we can refuse to act upon.

 

[ozso]

As it should, we can’t find it within ourselves to commit, obey, and persevere without the atonement.

I like it when I act against my nature, because I know it's God working through me.

 

[ozso]

Ive said it once, mimicking the practice of the OP incidentally, and the reason should be obvious enough in this case to anyone who’s read more than one version, including the KJV. It’s easy enough to check out. And as a side note while I appreciate the KJV for its literary value, red flags go up whenever I find someone obsessed with it as having superior value for understanding the Christian faith.

Twas just a little joke. I prefer the NKJV and NSAB myself. But I like to read the Psalms in KJV because they seem more familiar and poetic that way. Sometimes I'll go over to The Message to see how Eugene Peterson interpreted a passage.

 

[fhansen]

While we're at it, want to finish this conversation we were having? :
__________________________________
Ligurian said: ↑

What do you do with Matthew 28:18-20?
__________________________________

To which you replied:
"You'll have to enlighten me here-I don't see the conflict so far."
How to walk in the Spirit.

My point is that the Kingdom Gospel was supposed to be preached in the whole world even after Jesus came back from Heaven after the Resurrection, because that's what Jesus was preaching from the time JohnB went to jail. The message to the circumcision stays the same.

While I’ve done more research on the Kingdom Gospel, one problem that comes up when the gospels of Jesus and Paul are separated is that a few will end up regarding Paul as a complete apostate while possibly misconstruing and wrongly emphasizing the role of the law, while others will view Jesus as preaching an Old Covenant gospel of law without grace to a different audience and Paul as preaching a gospel of grace that they may even take to mean that man’s no longer required to fulfill his obligation to be personally righteous. And neither are true. The whole purpose of the gospel is for us to come to see that we cannot fulfill our obligation to be righteous, to be who we were created to be, to be lawful (without the necessity of even being aware of the law), apart from grace. “Apart from Me you can do nothing”- John 15:5. That’s the essence of the New Covenant.

And the church, for its part, moved centuries ago from the idea of a millennial reign of Christ on earth even though, for a while, such a theocracy actually might’ve seemed to be happening as the church spread and grew in temporal power in earlier times. This turned out to be a mixed blessing, of course, and more of a curse in fact as the church would eventually learn the hard way. But either way while the idea of a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth had many early proponents and opponents in the church, ever since Augustine, who changed his own views on the matter, until today, it’s had virtually no support within the Catholic church and has been denounced in fact, FWIW. It’s taught that evil will increase towards the end and the church will be persecuted before Christ’s 2nd coming after which His reign will be eternal, His kingdom not being of this earth to begin with. Then the kingdom is completely fulfilled. But His kingdom is everywhere, and beginning here, among us. We're to work to bring it about now in any case, opposing evil and spreading and realizing the gospel of His love that He's authored within us.

 

[ozso]

The word Gospel is derived from the Anglo-Saxon term god-spell, meaning “good story,” a rendering of the Latin evangelium and the Greek euangelion, meaning “good news” or “good telling.”

The Gospel is the Good News of the salvation made possible by the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[Ligurian]

There is no such thing as the "original greek", but dont let that stop you.

Do you speak Hebrew and have an Hebraic copy of the New Testament?

 

[Ligurian]

The word Gospel is derived from the Anglo-Saxon term god-spell, meaning “good story,” a rendering of the Latin evangelium and the Greek euangelion, meaning “good news” or “good telling.”

The Gospel is the Good News of the salvation made possible by the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The Good News of the Kingdom of God.

Interlinear Greek to English says this:
euaggelion from eu 2095 and aggelos 32; a good message, gospel.
2095 eu = good, well (done).
32 aggelos = angel, messenger.

It's not Anglo-Saxon or Latin.

 

[Ligurian]

I've seen Matthew 7:24-27 posted umpteen times of CF. The fruit Jesus speaks of in Matthew 7 is that of false prophets.

Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves. 16 By their fruits you will know them. Do you gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree produces good fruit, but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit. 18 A good tree can’t produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that doesn’t grow good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. Matthew 7:15-20

I believe Jesus then goes on to say what will become of these false prophets:

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will tell me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?’ 23 Then I will tell them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity." Mathew 7:21-23

"He who does the will of My Father who is in heaven" Matthew 7:21

“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:40

Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.” Matthew 7:24-27

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.

anomia = from anomos 459; illegality, i.e. violation of law or (genitive case) wickedness:--iniquity, X transgress(-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.

459 anomos = from a (as a negative particle) and nomos 3551; lawless, i.e. (negatively) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by implication, a Gentile), or (positively) wicked:--without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.

3551 nomos = law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), genitive case (regulation), specially, (of Moses (including the volume); also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle):--law.

See why there are two completely different gospels yet?

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do Mine own will, but the will of Him that sent me.

John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me, but on him that sent Me. 45 And he that seeth Me seeth Him that sent Me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear My words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His Commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.

Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee(Moses), and will put My words in His mouth; and He shall speak unto them all that I shall command Him. 19 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever will not hearken unto My words which He shall speak in My name, I will require [it] of him.

Now do you see the two different gospels?
Jesus spoke the words of the Father.
Paul applied what Jesus did to the followers.
Can you keep both gospels without guile?

 

[setst777]

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.

anomia = from anomos 459; illegality, i.e. violation of law or (genitive case) wickedness:--iniquity, X transgress(-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.

459 anomos = from a (as a negative particle) and nomos 3551; lawless, i.e. (negatively) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by implication, a Gentile), or (positively) wicked:--without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.

3551 nomos = law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), genitive case (regulation), specially, (of Moses (including the volume); also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle):--law.

See why there are two completely different gospels yet?

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do Mine own will, but the will of Him that sent me.

John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me, but on him that sent Me. 45 And he that seeth Me seeth Him that sent Me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear My words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His Commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.

Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee(Moses), and will put My words in His mouth; and He shall speak unto them all that I shall command Him. 19 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever will not hearken unto My words which He shall speak in My name, I will require [it] of him.

Now do you see the two different gospels?
Jesus spoke the words of the Father.
Paul applied what Jesus did to the followers.
Can you keep both gospels without guile?

Ligurian, I have not seen anything wrong with your doctrine, and your responses to arguments show me you Spiritually understand what you are stating.

You appear to think there are different Gospels being preached between what Lord Jesus taught and what the Apostle Paul taught. I do not see that difference, and I believe Paul agrees with you more than you think.

However, even if you do reject the writings of Paul, and hold onto the teachings in the Gospels and that of Peter, John, James, and Jude, you still have the compete Gospel, and so you do not err in that regard.

Three Passages I believe you would like of Paul are as follows:

Romans 1:5 (NIV) 5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake.

Romans 16:25-26 (NIV) 25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith

Acts 26:20 (NIV)
20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.

This would agree with Lord Jesus' command to preach a Gospel of faith in obedience to all nations

Matthew 28:19-20 (WEB) 19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

A true Christian walks in the light of God's Spirit, only these are cleansed by the Blood of Jesus.

1 John 1:6-7 (WEB) 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

disciples of Lord Jesus are Christians

Blessings