Salvation is a free gift but only to those who want it above all else.

[d taylor]

Why would you ask such a question? What does the bible tell us? Eternal life is a free Gift of God through Jesus Christ.

-
​

Because you wrote.
We accept it through the willingness to obey and surrender of our wills to Christ.
and this
but it requires a sincere desire that leads to a willingness to give up everything God asks of us.

If a person has to obey and give up everything, then eternal life is not free.

 

[Paleouss]

Thank you for your response.

Paleouss said:
I'm assuming you will hold to a "Christ died for all" position. Are you aware of the distinction between "Atonement Accomplished" and "Atonement Applied"?

Then Mercy Shown said:

This is a theologian's parsings. The Bible teaches that God reconciled Himself to the whole world and set us as ambassadors of that reconciliation. We are called to make God's appeal to the unsaved to be reconciled to God. People will die in their sins needlessly simply because they refuse to accept the reconciliation God offers them.

I agree, it is a theologian's parsing. A good one, IMO, and based on biblical referencing. I think it would be in your best interest to study it. Why? Because it can support some of your claims.

The parsing is the distinction that that Atonement has a contingent criteria. That is to say, it distinguishes between the Scriptures account of the accomplished work at the cross by Christ (atonement accomplished) and the Scriptures account of when that atonement is applied (at faith). This distinction is important in your debate against Hard Calvinist. For a very in depth and objective biblical research of this topic, see David Allen.

In regard to who would hold to such a distinction... (1) Hard Calvinists would deny the distinction of accomplished and applied. They would claim that when Christ died the atonement was accomplished and applied at the same moment. They need to claim this to deny that Christ died for the sins of all. Thus, they try and deny the distinction. (2) Soft Calvinist and (3) Non Calvinist would recognize the distinction and claim that there is Atonement Accomplished (which is payment of debt on the cross) AND Atonement Applied (which is the contingent condition of faith for that debt to be applied).

By the use of my quotes of Calvin, I'm trying to suggest to you that Calvin was more of a Soft Calvinist (by today's standards). And that Calvin himself could be used in some arguments against Hard Calvinists. Particularly regarding unlimited atonement (not to be confused with universalism). (Some Calvinist that held to unlimited atonement...post-Reformation scholars such as John Davenant, Amyraut, Jean Daille, Bishop Ussher, and Richard Baxter, along with modern scholars such as R. T. Kendall, Alan Clifford, Charles Bell, Curt Daniel, Kevin Kennedy, and David Ponter.)

We all, if we are actually seeking God's truth and not the dogmas we have constructed for ourselves, must reconcile predestination, election, and the contingent choice of faith. The Holy Scriptures clearly teaches all of them. God is sovereign and in control of all things. But of course how each, Hard, Soft, and Non interpret it may be slightly different. For me, election and predestination are real...AND...choice and contingent faith is real (meaning we are in control and responsible for our faith). Reconciling how the two can work together, well, sometimes that takes faith.

I would like to end this post with one biblical example of Atonement Accomplished and Atonement Applied.

In 1Cor 5:7 we are told that "Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed." There should be none that deny that this verse is telling us that the Passover account is a shadow of Christ's work on the cross to come and that Christ is the Passover lamb.

So let's look at the picture that God gave the OT Jews. In Exo 12:5...

(Exo 12:5-6 NKJV)
5 'Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year. You may take [it] from the sheep or from the goats. 6 'Now you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month. Then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at twilight.

So the procedure for the Jewish people was that they must take a lamb "without blemish" (that's Christ) and kill it at twilight (that's also Christ). Thus, innocent blood has been shed to pay the price, the lamb sacrificed, the Atonement Accomplished.

But wait, God's instructions are not done. Even though the sacrifice was done, the price of innocent blood had been shed, and atonement accomplished...the application of that atonement, so that death would pass over you, contained a contingent step.

(Exo 12:7 NKJV)
7 'And they shall take [some] of the blood and put [it] on the two doorposts and on the lintel of the houses where they eat it.

In other words, if the Jew sacrificed the lamb and didn't then APPLY the blood to the door posts and lintel, then his first born would die. But how can that be? Wasn't the perfect lamb slain, its blood shed that death pass over the house? Yes it was...but there is one more step. Man's faith to then apply it to the door and lintel. The sacrifice and atonement was God's part, man's part is to apply that blood by faith to their own home.

(Rev 3:20 NKJV)
20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

And finally in Exodus 12:13, it says that after the application of the blood, "when I see the blood" "I will pass over you". If the Jewish people would have just sacrificed the lamb and not had the next step of faith to also apply it to the doorpost...then death would befall their home. Atonement accomplished and Atonement Applied.

So too is the blood of Christ, accomplished at the cross and applied at the point of faith.


Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure

 

[Apple Sky]

So, you reckon the vast majority of mankind will reject the free offer of eternal paradise and choose eternal torment in the lake of fire.

The vast majority either don't know about this or don't believe.

 

[Soyeong]

Salvation is a free gift, yet it’s often treated as if it could be earned. You can acquire this precious gift in this divine marketplace without spending anything. Everyone can access the blessings of heaven, as the door to truth is open to all. There’s no barrier to entering this door; the Savior and the voice within invite us to come. Christ urges us to seek His refined gold, making us truly rich.

The gospel is a blessing available to everyone, regardless of wealth. Even the poorest can obtain salvation, as it can’t be bought with money. We accept it through the willingness to obey and surrender of our wills to Christ. High education doesn’t bring one closer to God by itself. The Pharisees, despite their advantages, were spiritually blind and poor.

Salvation can't be earned, but it requires a sincere desire that leads to a willingness to give up everything God asks of us. God will not complete the good work in us against our will. God wants your willing obedience, shows us our deficits, and empowers us to turn away from our sins to him as long as we submit to him.

Our obedience to God’s law has nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation from God, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of His law is the way that He is giving us Hid gift of salvation (Titus 2:11-13).

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Our obedience to God’s law has nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation from God, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of His law is the way that He is giving us Hid gift of salvation (Titus 2:11-13).

Yes... a twofold salvation. Saved from the effects of sin and saved from the power of sin. We now have the potential to not sin, which was absent in our pre-salvation condition.

 

[Dan1988]

The vast majority either don't know about this or don't believe.

Or how about this, the vast majority are dead in their sin and God doesn't quicken them to life, so they can't receive the free gift of salvation.
What can a dead man do?????...... hint, nothing........... he can't even receive a free gift

 

[maxamir]

Your insults and condemnation is not something the Lord would want me to continue in. If you have the ability to post your points in a polite manner, I will respond but I have no desire to cast pearls.

I utterly condemn your false doctrine but have nowhere condemned you. Your reluctance to engage with the Scriptures that have been given you proves that you have placed your man-centred theology above Scripture. If you feel offended by me for doing so then I thank God that he is answering my prayers for you to have absolutely no peace from Him until you are humbled to submit to Him and His truth which is made plain to the humble but hidden from the proud who do not desire correction in any way.

If you choose not to respond at all, then I have dutifully warned you of your error and your blood is not upon me, but please note that if you continue to pervert the glorious Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and die in your sin, then not I but Scripture confirms that you are doubly accursed for doing so, have the blood of all men upon you, will wish you were never born at all and will prove yourself to be reprobate, eternally and justly hated by God.

 

[Mercy Shown]

I utterly condemn your false doctrine but have nowhere condemned you. Your reluctance to engage with the Scriptures that have been given you proves that you have placed your man-centred theology above Scripture. If you feel offended by me for doing so then I thank God that he is answering my prayers for you to have absolutely no peace from Him until you are humbled to submit to Him and His truth which is made plain to the humble but hidden from the proud who do not desire correction in any way.

If you choose not to respond at all, then I have dutifully warned you of your error and your blood is not upon me, but please note that if you continue to pervert the glorious Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and die in your sin, then not I but Scripture confirms that you are doubly accursed for doing so, have the blood of all men upon you, will wish you were never born at all and will prove yourself to be reprobate, eternally and justly hated by God.

View attachment 354358

sadly, you have proven by your response that you do not yet know the thrice holy God of Scripture who hates evil so much that He justly killed every man, woman, child and animal in the flood bar the remnant in the ark which is a picture of Christ whom God killed at the hands of evil men to demonstrate His righteousness and holy hatred for evil and holy love in saving His people from that evil as He decreed before He created all things which included the wicked for the day of doom (Pro 16:4). And because you do not truly know God yet, you do not either truly know who man is yet as God see's Him.

Twice, you accuse me of not knowing God. This is a gross judgment you can't possibly know; instead of addressing the subject matter and refuting my position, your first sentence addresses me personally and is a condemnatory ad hominem attack. It is a provocation that tempts me to get down in the mud and wrestle, but the Spirit checks me and I can't disobey.

...nevertheless I am not ashamed. For I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that Day. 2 Tim 1:12

(If you wish to have a civil discussion, I am eager to respond to any of your points with out the clutter of personal attacks.

 

[Mercy Shown]

Our obedience to God’s law has nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation from God, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of His law is the way that He is giving us Hid gift of salvation (Titus 2:11-13).

Well said.

 

[Mercy Shown]

Thank you for your response.


Then Mercy Shown said:

I agree, it is a theologian's parsing. A good one, IMO, and based on biblical referencing. I think it would be in your best interest to study it. Why? Because it can support some of your claims.

I do not trust man's parsing of scripture, but I am open to what you say.

The parsing is the distinction that that Atonement has a contingent criteria. That is to say, it distinguishes between the Scriptures account of the accomplished work at the cross by Christ (atonement accomplished) and the Scriptures account of when that atonement is applied (at faith). This distinction is important in your debate against Hard Calvinist. For a very in depth and objective biblical research of this topic, see David Allen.

I think we are saying the same thing; only I use the term accepted. Until I accept a gift, it is not mine. The gift of God's reconciliation cannot work in my life nor apply to me until I accept it by submitting to it. Thus it is not applied until it is submitted to. God does not force it on us.

In regard to who would hold to such a distinction... (1) Hard Calvinists would deny the distinction of accomplished and applied. They would claim that when Christ died the atonement was accomplished and applied at the same moment. They need to claim this to deny that Christ died for the sins of all. Thus, they try and deny the distinction. (2) Soft Calvinist and (3) Non Calvinist would recognize the distinction and claim that there is Atonement Accomplished (which is payment of debt on the cross) AND Atonement Applied (which is the contingent condition of faith for that debt to be applied).

Yes

By the use of my quotes of Calvin, I'm trying to suggest to you that Calvin was more of a Soft Calvinist (by today's standards). And that Calvin himself could be used in some arguments against Hard Calvinists. Particularly regarding unlimited atonement (not to be confused with universalism). (Some Calvinist that held to unlimited atonement...post-Reformation scholars such as John Davenant, Amyraut, Jean Daille, Bishop Ussher, and Richard Baxter, along with modern scholars such as R. T. Kendall, Alan Clifford, Charles Bell, Curt Daniel, Kevin Kennedy, and David Ponter.)

We all, if we are actually seeking God's truth and not the dogmas we have constructed for ourselves, must reconcile predestination, election, and the contingent choice of faith. The Holy Scriptures clearly teaches all of them. God is sovereign and in control of all things. But of course how each, Hard, Soft, and Non interpret it may be slightly different. For me, election and predestination are real...AND...choice and contingent faith is real (meaning we are in control and responsible for our faith). Reconciling how the two can work together, well, sometimes that takes faith.

Yes, to a great degree, I have come to understand some of it by God's grace. But that is another thread.

I would like to end this post with one biblical example of Atonement Accomplished and Atonement Applied.

In 1Cor 5:7 we are told that "Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed." There should be none that deny that this verse is telling us that the Passover account is a shadow of Christ's work on the cross to come and that Christ is the Passover lamb.

So let's look at the picture that God gave the OT Jews. In Exo 12:5...

So the procedure for the Jewish people was that they must take a lamb "without blemish" (that's Christ) and kill it at twilight (that's also Christ). Thus, innocent blood has been shed to pay the price, the lamb sacrificed, the Atonement Accomplished.

But wait, God's instructions are not done. Even though the sacrifice was done, the price of innocent blood had been shed, and atonement accomplished...the application of that atonement, so that death would pass over you, contained a contingent step.

In other words, if the Jew sacrificed the lamb and didn't then APPLY the blood to the door posts and lintel, then his first born would die. But how can that be? Wasn't the perfect lamb slain, its blood shed that death pass over the house? Yes it was...but there is one more step. Man's faith to then apply it to the door and lintel. The sacrifice and atonement was God's part, man's part is to apply that blood by faith to their own home.

And finally in Exodus 12:13, it says that after the application of the blood, "when I see the blood" "I will pass over you". If the Jewish people would have just sacrificed the lamb and not had the next step of faith to also apply it to the doorpost...then death would befall their home. Atonement accomplished and Atonement Applied.

So too is the blood of Christ, accomplished at the cross and applied at the point of faith.


Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure

I think we are saying the same thing.

 

[Mercy Shown]

-
​

Because you wrote.
We accept it through the willingness to obey and surrender of our wills to Christ.
and this
but it requires a sincere desire that leads to a willingness to give up everything God asks of us.

If a person has to obey and give up everything, then eternal life is not free.

So you feel that willingness is a payment? How can that be? At Christmas time, I must be willing to accept all of the free gifts I am offered. I was once out on the water when my boat engine died. A very generous man came along and offered to tow me in. Of course, I said yes, but I do not see my willingness to let him help me as a payment for his services.

Now, how can it be a gift if it is forced on me when I am not willing?

 

[maxamir]

Twice, you accuse me of not knowing God. This is a gross judgment you can't possibly know; instead of addressing the subject matter and refuting my position, your first sentence addresses me personally and is a condemnatory ad hominem attack. It is a provocation that tempts me to get down in the mud and wrestle, but the Spirit checks me and I can't disobey.

...nevertheless I am not ashamed. For I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that Day. 2 Tim 1:12

(If you wish to have a civil discussion, I am eager to respond to any of your points with out the clutter of personal attacks.

I have simply pointed out that you do not yet know the God of Holy Scripture because you have claimed that He is not sovereign in all things, that He loves everyone and desires everyone to be saved, that He does not justly cast people into Hell, that man is not spiritually dead and can therefore choose God without first being made alive.

I have used Scripture to show you that your man-centred theology is wrong but you have not bothered to reply using Scripture and have instead made false accusations against myself which I have grown used to from those who have no valid arguments to make.

It is my God given responsibility to defend the truth of the Gospel from perversion which is so adamant today and if you truly love the Gospel you would seek to test all things but it seems like you can not be bothered to do so.

If I am wrong in my assumption then please tell me who is man according to Scripture, for this is the bed rock of understanding of why people need Christ. Did God lie in Genesis 2:17 when He said they would die that day, for Adam ended up living to the ripe old age of 930?

 

[Dan1988]

Our obedience to God’s law has nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation from God, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of His law is the way that He is giving us Hid gift of salvation (Titus 2:11-13).

Who are the "us" that God is graciously teaching to be a doer of His law.

God only made two different covenants. The first was "the covenant of law" and it only applied to Adam and Eve.
The second was "the covenant of grace", which applies to everyone after Adam.

Why have you shunned the covenant of grace and gone back to the covenant of law, don't you realize that nobody has ever been able to keep the law, because the law was given to curse all those who try to keep it.

Your Arminian gospel, is a curse. Nobody is saved by works, God says your best works are filthy stinking rags, and you believe God will accept your filthy rags as a payment for your sin. Well you've got another thing coming, and it will sound like "depart from Me, for I never knew you".

 

[Soyeong]

Who are the "us" that God is graciously teaching to be a doer of His law.

Those who need salvation.

God only made two different covenants. The first was "the covenant of law" and it only applied to Adam and Eve.
The second was "the covenant of grace", which applies to everyone after Adam.

Why have you shunned the covenant of grace and gone back to the covenant of law,

In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace trough faith, which means that the Mosaic Covenant is a covenant of grace and law. Likewise, in Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting His law in our mind and writing it on our hearts, so the New Covenant is also a covenant of grace and law, along with all of God's other covenants.

don't you realize that nobody has ever been able to keep the law, because the law was given to curse all those who try to keep it.

In Romans 10:5-8, it references Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! The Bible reportedly says that obedience to God's law is the way to be blessed, so you are denying that word of faith that we proclaim.

Your Arminian gospel, is a curse. Nobody is saved by works,

Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we continued to live in sin, so here must an aspect of our salvation from sin that we are experiencing in the present by being a doer of God's law. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is the aspect of His gift of salvation that we are experience in the present. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous of for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20).

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom.

God says your best works are filthy stinking rags, and you believe God will accept your filthy rags as a payment for your sin.

God is not a commander of filthy rags, but rather the righteous deeds of the saints are like fine white linen (Revelation 19:8). In Isaiah 64:6, it is not God speaking, but rather it is the people hyperbolically complaining about God not coming down and making His presence known.

Well you've got another thing coming, and it will sound like "depart from Me, for I never knew you".

The Father has straightforwardly made His will known through what He has commanded in His law (Psalms 40:8) and in Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he would tell those who are works of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so we are required to be works of lawfulness.

 

[d taylor]

So you feel that willingness is a payment? How can that be? At Christmas time, I must be willing to accept all of the free gifts I am offered. I was once out on the water when my boat engine died. A very generous man came along and offered to tow me in. Of course, I said yes, but I do not see my willingness to let him help me as a payment for his services.

Now, how can it be a gift if it is forced on me when I am not willing?

-
​

Can you show me one verse that states a person receives salvation by "as you wrote": We accept it through the willingness to obey and surrender of our wills to Christ.

In The Bible a person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation by belief in Jesus. Which is the only condition required by God to be met, to receive Eternal Life.
Believing that Jesus is the promised Messiah, only begotten Son of God and He, Jesus is the resurrection and the life.

A willingness to obey and surrender, is an action of a believer that wants to live a Christ like life. It is not something an unbeliever must do to become a permanent born again child of God.

 

[Mercy Shown]

I have simply pointed out that you do not yet know the God of Holy Scripture because you have claimed that He is not sovereign in all things, that He loves everyone and desires everyone to be saved, that He does not justly cast people into Hell, that man is not spiritually dead and can therefore choose God without first being made alive.

You’re incorrect. Perhaps you’ve not been following all of my posts. Man is born dead spiritually to God. Am I now supposed to stoop to your level and tell you that you don’t know God yet who set you up as judge and how are you so sure of your judgment?

I have used Scripture to show you that your man-centred theology is wrong but you have not bothered to reply using Scripture and have instead made false accusations against myself which I have grown used to from those who have no valid arguments to make.

You have not proven that my position is wrong. I do not view the Old Testament's definition of God as complete. It is a primitive view of God. Jesus came to enlighten us and show us the Father. Instead of using selected texts to support a biased view of God from the Old Testament, let's look at a more complete picture of God from the Old Testament. Now, I assume you believe that God purposed all things from before the world was created? But you also seem to hold that God gets angry and starts killing people when they do not do what He purposed they should. You also seem to equate God's wrath with the emotions a human would experience. But you leave out two other aspects of God as portrayed in the Old Testament.

1. God needs to come down and have a look at things to see what is going on. Gen11:5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building.
2. God regrets and grieves over his previous actions. Genesis 6:6 says, "And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart." 1 Samuel 15:11 “I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me and has not performed my commandments.” And Samuel was angry, and he cried to the Lord all night.

So, the complete picture of God from the OT is one of a partial God who selects a few to be saved. He kills people who displease him and provoke him enough. He gets angry over people acting in ways that He purposed. He makes mistakes, like selecting Saul as the first king of Israel. He is not omnipotent and must come down to see the tower.

I do not see God that way through the lens of Jesus Christ, who came to reveal the Father to us and the whole world. In Michah 3:6 God says, "For I am the Lord, I change not." Yet today, we do not have the Lord directly destroying people or coming down to have a look around.

What does God regret? I would say he does not ever regret anything. So, what do we do with those texts from the Old Testament? Do you believe in progressive revelation?

The concept of progressive revelation asserts that God has gradually made Himself and His will known through the Scriptures as more and more of them were written. This means that later writings contain more information. As a result, knowledge is revealed by God progressively and in increasing measure throughout the Bible, from ancient times to later times. This concept is logical because we understand that God did not reveal all His knowledge to us at once. However, this does not imply that earlier portions of the Scriptures are lower quality or less important than later revelations. It simply means that the latter can clarify the former.

It is my God given responsibility to defend the truth of the Gospel from perversion which is so adamant today and if you truly love the Gospel you would seek to test all things but it seems like you can not be bothered to do so.

To defend your bias?

If I am wrong in my assumption then please tell me who is man according to Scripture, for this is the bed rock of understanding of why people need Christ. Did God lie in Genesis 2:17 when He said they would die that day, for Adam ended up living to the ripe old age of 930?

No, of course not. They were spiritually dead even as they bit into the fruit. Their sin was due to their choice to trust something other than God.

-
​

Can you show me one verse that states a person receives salvation by "as you wrote": We accept it through the willingness to obey and surrender of our wills to Christ.

To be clear, are you saying that God gives salvation to people who are unwilling to accept it and resistant to God's will?

Consder these scriptures:
Isaiah 1:19 If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land;
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine;

In Christ, when we will to do His will, we are counted as having done it. PTL, but God does not force His salvation on anyone.

In The Bible a person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation by belief in Jesus. Which is the only condition required by God to be met, to receive Eternal Life.

Why is this not a "payment" or a "work?"

Furthermore, what are we to believe? Why are we seeking Him in the first place? I would answer: Because we are convicted that we are disobedient sinners without hope but desperately desire to be obedient and are willing to submit to Him for salvation.

Believing that Jesus is the promised Messiah, only begotten Son of God and He, Jesus is the resurrection and the life.

You would not even care unless you knew that you were lost, and you would not know that you were lost unless you knew that you were afoul of God's will and disobedient to him. And if you did know but were unwilling to accept His salvation or obey Him, you would not receive it.

What I posted is true on the face of it. You must see that an unwilling and disobedient person will not accept the salvation God is offering. I think you actually agree with that. I think your argument is better served by moving it back a bit in the process and asking how we become willing because we surely aren't born that way.

A willingness to obey and surrender, is an action of a believer that wants to live a Christ like life. It is not something an unbeliever must do to become a permanent born again child of God.

 

[d taylor]

To be clear, are you saying that God gives salvation to people who are unwilling to accept it and resistant to God's will?

Consder these scriptures:
Isaiah 1:19 If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land;
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine;

In Christ, when we will to do His will, we are counted as having done it. PTL, but God does not force His salvation on anyone.


Why is this not a "payment" or a "work?"

Furthermore, what are we to believe? Why are we seeking Him in the first place? I would answer: Because we are convicted that we are disobedient sinners without hope but desperately desire to be obedient and are willing to submit to Him for salvation.

You would not even care unless you knew that you were lost, and you would not know that you were lost unless you knew that you were afoul of God's will and disobedient to him. And if you did know but were unwilling to accept His salvation or obey Him, you would not receive it.

What I posted is true on the face of it. You must see that an unwilling and disobedient person will not accept the salvation God is offering. I think you actually agree with that. I think your argument is better served by moving it back a bit in the process and asking how we become willing because we surely aren't born that way.

-
​

God's gives Eternal Life salvation to people who believe in Jesus.

The scriptures you posted are not addressing Eternal Life and how to receive life.

Belief is a work, a passive action that only requires a moment of time. The time it takes for a person to understand, it is belief in Jesus, as how a person receives Eternal Life.

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

There is a whole book in The Bible specifically written to tell people how to have life (eternal life), The Gospel of John.

 

[Mercy Shown]

-
​

God's gives Eternal Life salvation to people who believe in Jesus.

The scriptures you posted are not addressing Eternal Life and how to receive life.

Can you support your claim other than just pronouncing it is so?

Belief is a work, a passive action that only requires a moment of time. The time it takes for a person to understand, it is belief in Jesus, as how a person receives Eternal Life.

So then, is there work to perform?

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

There is a whole book in The Bible specifically written to tell people how to have life (eternal life), The Gospel of John.

You are now the one saying that it is not a free gift. Of course, this all dovetails nicely with what I posted.

 

[maxamir]

You’re incorrect. Perhaps you’ve not been following all of my posts. Man is born dead spiritually to God. Am I now supposed to stoop to your level and tell you that you don’t know God yet who set you up as judge and how are you so sure of your judgment?

You have not proven that my position is wrong. I do not view the Old Testament's definition of God as complete. It is a primitive view of God. Jesus came to enlighten us and show us the Father. Instead of using selected texts to support a biased view of God from the Old Testament, let's look at a more complete picture of God from the Old Testament. Now, I assume you believe that God purposed all things from before the world was created? But you also seem to hold that God gets angry and starts killing people when they do not do what He purposed they should. You also seem to equate God's wrath with the emotions a human would experience. But you leave out two other aspects of God as portrayed in the Old Testament.

1. God needs to come down and have a look at things to see what is going on. Gen11:5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building.
2. God regrets and grieves over his previous actions. Genesis 6:6 says, "And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart." 1 Samuel 15:11 “I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me and has not performed my commandments.” And Samuel was angry, and he cried to the Lord all night.

So, the complete picture of God from the OT is one of a partial God who selects a few to be saved. He kills people who displease him and provoke him enough. He gets angry over people acting in ways that He purposed. He makes mistakes, like selecting Saul as the first king of Israel. He is not omnipotent and must come down to see the tower.

I do not see God that way through the lens of Jesus Christ, who came to reveal the Father to us and the whole world. In Michah 3:6 God says, "For I am the Lord, I change not." Yet today, we do not have the Lord directly destroying people or coming down to have a look around.

What does God regret? I would say he does not ever regret anything. So, what do we do with those texts from the Old Testament? Do you believe in progressive revelation?

The concept of progressive revelation asserts that God has gradually made Himself and His will known through the Scriptures as more and more of them were written. This means that later writings contain more information. As a result, knowledge is revealed by God progressively and in increasing measure throughout the Bible, from ancient times to later times. This concept is logical because we understand that God did not reveal all His knowledge to us at once. However, this does not imply that earlier portions of the Scriptures are lower quality or less important than later revelations. It simply means that the latter can clarify the former.

To defend your bias?

No, of course not. They were spiritually dead even as they bit into the fruit. Their sin was due to their choice to trust something other than God.

To be clear, are you saying that God gives salvation to people who are unwilling to accept it and resistant to God's will?

Consder these scriptures:
Isaiah 1:19 If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land;
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine;

In Christ, when we will to do His will, we are counted as having done it. PTL, but God does not force His salvation on anyone.


Why is this not a "payment" or a "work?"

Furthermore, what are we to believe? Why are we seeking Him in the first place? I would answer: Because we are convicted that we are disobedient sinners without hope but desperately desire to be obedient and are willing to submit to Him for salvation.

You would not even care unless you knew that you were lost, and you would not know that you were lost unless you knew that you were afoul of God's will and disobedient to him. And if you did know but were unwilling to accept His salvation or obey Him, you would not receive it.

What I posted is true on the face of it. You must see that an unwilling and disobedient person will not accept the salvation God is offering. I think you actually agree with that. I think your argument is better served by moving it back a bit in the process and asking how we become willing because we surely aren't born that way.

Wow, I can't believe you wrote the following! He makes mistakes, like selecting Saul as the first king of Israel. He is not omnipotent and must come down to see the tower. and you think you know God? Let your comment be a testimony against you before all on this forum!

Sadly, you have admitted to believing that God is like man which is what God foretold people such as you would do.

Psa 50:21 These things you have done, and I kept silent; You thought that I was altogether like you; But I will rebuke you, And set them in order before your eyes.

I am a New Covenant Christian and believe that all of the shadows and types of the old were pointing to Christ in the New Covenant and through its lens everything in the old is made clear but that does not mean that God is double-minded as you falsely seem to assume. I suppose you also think that the Scriptures which indeed have rhetorical paradoxes within them to bring forth clarity somehow also contain logical paradoxes?

It seems you have not bothered to read what I have previously wrote to you about God speaking to man on his level or accountability before God for it seems that you have not yet grasped what Christ meant when He said "For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required" (Luk 12:48) and the more goodness a person receives in this life, the more accountable they are before God who has declared in both testaments that He kills people in the same way He always has because the soul which sins shall die (Eze 18:4,20) and the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23) which demonstrates the goodness of His perfectly holy, righteous, just and eternal wrath, which you must think is a flaw in God and somehow contradicts the goodness of His perfectly holy, righteous, just and eternal grace granted to those He chose before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4-6).

Please make it clear right now, whether you believe the Scriptures are inspired, inerrant and infallible? For, if you do not think they are then this conversation is over until God humbles you to submit to Him and His Word which is what He does to all of His children when He makes them willing in the day of His power (Psa 110:3), just as He did to Saul on the road to Damascus against his will.

Lastly, getting to the point of the question I gave you. God is Spirit (John 4:24), therefore how can man whom you have admitted is spiritually dead, choose God when as far as I am aware, dead people can do nothing except be dead and stink?

 

[Mercy Shown]

Wow, I can't believe you wrote the following! He makes mistakes, like selecting Saul as the first king of Israel. He is not omnipotent and must come down to see the tower. and you think you know God? Let your comment be a testimony against you before all on this forum!

I do not believe that you are that ignorant. If you think that is what I believe then you have missed the point by a mile.

Sadly, you have admitted to believing that God is like man which is what God foretold people such as you would do.

Psa 50:21 These things you have done, and I kept silent; You thought that I was altogether like you; But I will rebuke you, And set them in order before your eyes.

I am a New Covenant Christian and believe that all of the shadows and types of the old were pointing to Christ in the New Covenant and through its lens everything in the old is made clear but that does not mean that God is double-minded as you falsely seem to assume. I suppose you also think that the Scriptures which indeed have rhetorical paradoxes within them to bring forth clarity somehow also contain logical paradoxes?

It seems you have not bothered to read what I have previously wrote to you about God speaking to man on his level or accountability before God for it seems that you have not yet grasped what Christ meant when He said "For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required" (Luk 12:48) and the more goodness a person receives in this life, the more accountable they are before God who has declared in both testaments that He kills people in the same way He always has because the soul which sins shall die (Eze 18:4,20) and the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23) which demonstrates the goodness of His perfectly holy, righteous, just and eternal wrath, which you must think is a flaw in God and somehow contradicts the goodness of His perfectly holy, righteous, just and eternal grace granted to those He chose before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4-6).

Please make it clear right now, whether you believe the Scriptures are inspired, inerrant and infallible? For, if you do not think they are then this conversation is over until God humbles you to submit to Him and His Word which is what He does to all of His children when He makes them willing in the day of His power (Psa 110:3), just as He did to Saul on the road to Damascus against his will.

Lastly, getting to the point of the question I gave you. God is Spirit (John 4:24), therefore how can man whom you have admitted is spiritually dead, choose God when as far as I am aware, dead people can do nothing except be dead and stink?

Please address the point I made rather than ranting on about your straw man. I you need me to. I can break it down for you in simpler terms. You are so far off my position on this that I almost think you can’t grasp the concept I presented.

What I outlined was the fact that you and a few of the more radicle Calvinists live to quote only certain OT text to support their version of God but then refuse to acknowledge the other text that such as God’s regrets as also mentioned in the OT.

I am still floored by your total misreading of my post I just can’t believe you actually can’t understand what I wrote.