Salvation is a free gift but only to those who want it above all else.

[Brightfame52]

Maybe I am splitting hairs, but isn't it a free git to everyone, but those who are not saved have rejected it?

Salvation is a free gift to all who become saved by it.

 

[Mercy Shown]

Salvation is a free gift to all who become saved by it.

You just made this up or else you believed someone else who made it up because there are about zero scriptures that say it.

It is such a sorry depiction of God.

 

[Brightfame52]

You just made this up or else you believed someone else who made it up because there are about zero scriptures that say it.

It is such a sorry depiction of God.

If thats what you wanna believe, fine with me. There are about zero scriptures that say it isnt true, not that you could believe scripture anyway

 

[maxamir]

What is the support for your argument here? Are you familiar with Hitchens's razor?

Yes, but you have claimed that the light that lights every man is this natural light. But that is not the case.

John 1:9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

As you can see, this light was not natural; it was a man: Jesus Christ. It is in His light that we can understand the Old Testament record of God given in the books of history.

Your strawmen are procreating. Soon, you will have an army of them. Hey, go for it and beat the straw out of them. If you get tired, you can try to refute my position instead.

Smash those strawmen. Wouldn't you rather discuss what I have stated? I would love to hear your explanation of how you believe in one set of OT texts that describe God and yet dismiss another set of texts that describe God.

There is an answer in Jesus Christ.

“If they don’t understand you, some people will attack you. This is a sign of profound ignorance, which should never be tolerated.”
― Wayne Gerard Trotman

This is not an argument as much as it is an opinion.

The interesting point is that we choose to believe or not to. If we cry, "Lord, I believe, help thou my unbelief." God hears and saves us. If we say, "Almost thou persuadest me..." we will fall back into death.

By their own choice. The wrath of God is being out of His presence. "...from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," It is not an angry God stomping around, torturing people for all eternity. Without His presence, we are dead and have no life.

I did mention before that it is only special revelation that saves and not general revelation or natural law but like usual you seem to ignore this and not realise that the Gospel which is commanded to go forth into all the world is an aroma of life unto life to some but to others which are the great majority it goes forth as an aroma of death unto death ( 2 Cor 2:14-16) meaning the Gospel saves some but condemns most as Christ affirmed when He said "many are called but few are chosen".

I know you do not accept this biblical view because it doesn't meet your requirements of God loving every single person and sincerely desiring all to be saved as your synergistic theology espouses which was cast out as heresy by the Synod of Dordt as being Pelagian.

It is interesting that you sought to retort to the doctrine of original sin and its consequences, which are the reason for Christ coming, as being a strawman fallacy. Please stop evading questions given to you and let everyone here in the forum know plainly, do you believe in the doctrine of original sin or not?

You then went a step further and did the same thing to what was said about God being sovereign in all things and labelled that also a strawman fallacy. Please let everyone here in the forum know plainly, do you believe that God is supremely sovereign or not?

Instead you attempt to strawman me by insinuating that I dismiss Scripture about God, which is blatantly false for Scripture interprets Scripture and all Scripture is inspired, inerrant and infallible which you are yet to affirm. If you fail to do so then you have no benchmark for truth and this conversation is fruitless if you can't back up what you claim with Scripture.

The Lord Jesus Christ is truly God and truly man, therefore to not faithfully proclaim who God truly is and who man truly is as clearly defined in Holy Scripture is to pervert who Christ is and His Gospel.

You then proclaim that what I said about reprobation is merely an opinion when it is clearly seen in Scripture below, which you once again reject as it doesn't fit into your man-centred theology. Please tell me, do you believe in a literal Hell and does God justly cast people there and torment them forever or not?

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Psa 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
2Co 13:6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Rom_1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

2Ti_3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

Tit_1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

1Pe 2:8 and "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

Jud 1:4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Mercy Shown]

If thats what you wanna believe, fine with me. There are about zero scriptures that say it isnt true, not that you could believe scripture anyway

Not a chance.
Start with John 3:16, combine with 1 John 2:22.

 

[Brightfame52]

Not a chance.
Start with John 3:16, combine with 1 John 2:22.

And ? Salvation is a free gift to all who become saved by it.

 

[Mercy Shown]

I did mention before that it is only special revelation that saves and not general revelation or natural law but like usual you seem to ignore this and not realise that the Gospel which is commanded to go forth into all the world is an aroma of life unto life to some but to others which are the great majority it goes forth as an aroma of death unto death ( 2 Cor 2:14-16) meaning the Gospel saves some but condemns most as Christ affirmed when He said "many are called but few are chosen".

What you say is true, but it’s all predicated on choice. Some decide to receive the special revelation, which, by the way, includes the great commission. Others reject the special revelation and choose to go their own way. As far as general revelation goes, the Bible indicates that some people who by nature do the things written in the law are righteous before God, so that kind of puts a monkey wrench in your argument.

I know you do not accept this biblical view because it doesn't meet your requirements of God loving every single person and sincerely desiring all to be saved as your synergistic theology espouses which was cast out as heresy by the Synod of Dordt as being Pelagian.

This is a diabolical view, not a biblical view because it ends up making God responsible for all the evil in the universe. This is, in essence, is what Satan did in the garden of Eden by accusing God of not having Adam
and Eve’s best interest in mind.

It also makes God responsible for all the damned rather than their own poor choice. I cannot stress how diabolical this is.

It is interesting that you sought to retort to the doctrine of original sin and its consequences, which are the reason for Christ coming, as being a strawman fallacy. Please stop evading questions given to you and let everyone here in the forum know plainly, do you believe in the doctrine of original sin or not?

I never labeled it a strawman fallacy.

You then went a step further and did the same thing to what was said about God being sovereign in all things and labelled that also a strawman fallacy. Please let everyone here in the forum know plainly, do you believe that God is supremely sovereign or not?

I stated so clearly. I made a point by point explanation which you still seem to have trouble with. I will try to simplify it here even more.

1. You use the old testament to define God‘s justice and anger
2. But you reject the old testament when it comes to God having regrets and repenting. You can’t have it both ways so which is it?

Instead you attempt to strawman me by insinuating that I dismiss Scripture about God, which is blatantly false for Scripture interprets Scripture and all Scripture is inspired, inerrant and infallible which you are yet to affirm. If you fail to do so then you have no benchmark for truth and this conversation is fruitless if you can't back up what you claim with Scripture.

You still have not answered the question.

The Lord Jesus Christ is truly God and truly man, therefore to not faithfully proclaim who God truly is and who man truly is as clearly defined in Holy Scripture is to pervert who Christ is and His Gospel.

Now you’re going off topic. I hope you’re not trying to avoid the dichotomy.

You then proclaim that what I said about reprobation is merely an opinion when it is clearly seen in Scripture below, which you once again reject as it doesn't fit into your man-centred theology. Please tell me, do you believe in a literal Hell and does God justly cast people there and torment them forever or not?

Still asking more questions don’t side step the issue. Do you believe that God has regrets and repents? If you don’t, then you impeach your witnesses

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Since you believe this. Then you must also believe that God has regrets and repents. Either the Old Testament clearly defines God to us in every way or it does not.

Psa 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:

Yes, the wicked are so by their own choice.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
2Co 13:6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Yes, if we choose to receive Christ, we are not reprobates, but if we refuse, we become reprobates.

Rom_1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Yes, God gave them what they chose, and that was to be reprobates because they love darkness more than light.

2Ti_3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

Yes, these two chose to be reprobates. They chose to rebel against God just as adam and eve did.

Tit_1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Yes, this is the natural result of choosing to reject God‘s salvation.

Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

Yes, who prepared them for destruction? They prepared themselves by their choice.

1Pe 2:8 and "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

Yes, they were disobedient to the word to which they were appointed. It is a sad thing when people decide to be disobedient to the word of God to which they were appointed. This is a sure text that shows that people who are appointed can choose a different path.

Jud 1:4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes, those who reject God’s salvation are marked for condemnation. If we neglect so great salvation there is nothing left for us except judgment.

 

[maxamir]

What you say is true, but it’s all predicated on choice. Some decide to receive the special revelation, which, by the way, includes the great commission. Others reject the special revelation and choose to go their own way. As far as general revelation goes, the Bible indicates that some people who by nature do the things written in the law are righteous before God, so that kind of puts a monkey wrench in your argument.

This is a diabolical view, not a biblical view because it ends up making God responsible for all the evil in the universe. This is, in essence, is what Satan did in the garden of Eden by accusing God of not having Adam
and Eve’s best interest in mind.

It also makes God responsible for all the damned rather than their own poor choice. I cannot stress how diabolical this is.

I never labeled it a strawman fallacy.

I stated so clearly. I made a point by point explanation which you still seem to have trouble with. I will try to simplify it here even more.

1. You use the old testament to define God‘s justice and anger
2. But you reject the old testament when it comes to God having regrets and repenting. You can’t have it both ways so which is it?

You still have not answered the question.

Now you’re going off topic. I hope you’re not trying to avoid the dichotomy.

Still asking more questions don’t side step the issue. Do you believe that God has regrets and repents? If you don’t, then you impeach your witnesses

Since you believe this. Then you must also believe that God has regrets and repents. Either the Old Testament clearly defines God to us in every way or it does not.

Yes, the wicked are so by their own choice.

Yes, if we choose to receive Christ, we are not reprobates, but if we refuse, we become reprobates.

Yes, God gave them what they chose, and that was to be reprobates because they love darkness more than light.

Yes, these two chose to be reprobates. They chose to rebel against God just as adam and eve did.

Yes, this is the natural result of choosing to reject God‘s salvation.

Yes, who prepared them for destruction? They prepared themselves by their choice.

Yes, they were disobedient to the word to which they were appointed. It is a sad thing when people decide to be disobedient to the word of God to which they were appointed. This is a sure text that shows that people who are appointed can choose a different path.

Yes, those who reject God’s salvation are marked for condemnation. If we neglect so great salvation there is nothing left for us except judgment.

thank you for confirming to all here on the forum that you did not answer even one of the very important questions I gave you, therefore I have to conclude that because of your false man-centred doctrine, you utterly deny the doctrine of man's true condition before God and need for a Saviour because you somehow think that God lied and man is not spiritually dead but only sick and can choose to do good when God Himself says otherwise.

You also deny that God is God for if God is not sovereign then man can thwart what God decrees and prophecy would be impossible, the promises of God would be invalid and prayer would be useless! You foolishly, to your greater condemnation unless granted grace by God, proclaim that Christ did not come to save anyone but only made salvation possible for anyone who decides to press the button to save themselves and therefore you rob a perfectly jealous God of the glory of His salvation and hand it over to the choice of wicked men!

You also prove that you have no concept of the holiness or perfect justice of God which demands perfect judgement and therefore do not yet understand why Christ came into this world and what He came to save His people from for you by not answering my question confirm that you do not believe in Hell because you have twisted the love of God and brought it to your level and somehow think He is altogether like you!

It is no wonder that you think this way because you have proven by not answering my question on Scripture that you do not believe that the Scriptures are inspired, inerrant and infallible which is evidenced in your continuous claim that God changes and therefore you do not trust His word either.

Based upon your responses you have given me and those you have chosen not to respond to, I can only sadly conclude that you are not yet born again for those who are regenerated, do not look to themselves and their faith for salvation but to the person and work of Christ alone and seek to hear and hunger for the milk of God's Word and obey it and I see no evidence of this yet, no matter how much theological knowledge you may have or how holy you may claim yourself to be. I do not say these things in spite but in genuine love which seeks to warn according to the discernment given to me based upon Holy Scripture.

I pray that God gives you absolutely no peace until you are humbled by Him to submit to the plain truth of Scripture which proclaims who God is so that you may see who you truly are before Him and in turn see your desperate need for Christ Jesus who came to secure salvation for His people and not simply make salvation possible. Cry out to Him to give you a new heart and spirit so that you can obey His just command given to all to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, while He still gives you breath.

 

[concretecamper]

Salvation is a free gift, yet it’s often treated as if it could be earned. You can acquire this precious gift in this divine marketplace without spending anything. Everyone can access the blessings of heaven, as the door to truth is open to all. There’s no barrier to entering this door; the Savior and the voice within invite us to come. Christ urges us to seek His refined gold, making us truly rich.

The gospel is a blessing available to everyone, regardless of wealth. Even the poorest can obtain salvation, as it can’t be bought with money. We accept it through the willingness to obey and surrender of our wills to Christ. High education doesn’t bring one closer to God by itself. The Pharisees, despite their advantages, were spiritually blind and poor.

Salvation can't be earned, but it requires a sincere desire that leads to a willingness to give up everything God asks of us. God will not complete the good work in us against our will. God wants your willing obedience, shows us our deficits, and empowers us to turn away from our sins to him as long as we submit to him.

Four mentions of works in a post that says works aren't needed You can't make this stuff up

 

[Mercy Shown]

thank you for confirming to all here on the forum that you did not answer even one of the very important questions I gave you, therefore I have to conclude that because of your false man-centred doctrine, you utterly deny the doctrine of man's true condition before God and need for a Saviour because you somehow think that God lied and man is not spiritually dead but only sick and can choose to do good when God Himself says otherwise.

You also deny that God is God for if God is not sovereign then man can thwart what God decrees and prophecy would be impossible, the promises of God would be invalid and prayer would be useless! You foolishly, to your greater condemnation unless granted grace by God, proclaim that Christ did not come to save anyone but only made salvation possible for anyone who decides to press the button to save themselves and therefore you rob a perfectly jealous God of the glory of His salvation and hand it over to the choice of wicked men!

You also prove that you have no concept of the holiness or perfect justice of God which demands perfect judgement and therefore do not yet understand why Christ came into this world and what He came to save His people from for you by not answering my question confirm that you do not believe in Hell because you have twisted the love of God and brought it to your level and somehow think He is altogether like you!

It is no wonder that you think this way because you have proven by not answering my question on Scripture that you do not believe that the Scriptures are inspired, inerrant and infallible which is evidenced in your continuous claim that God changes and therefore you do not trust His word either.

Based upon your responses you have given me and those you have chosen not to respond to, I can only sadly conclude that you are not yet born again for those who are regenerated, do not look to themselves and their faith for salvation but to the person and work of Christ alone and seek to hear and hunger for the milk of God's Word and obey it and I see no evidence of this yet, no matter how much theological knowledge you may have or how holy you may claim yourself to be. I do not say these things in spite but in genuine love which seeks to warn according to the discernment given to me based upon Holy Scripture.

I pray that God gives you absolutely no peace until you are humbled by Him to submit to the plain truth of Scripture which proclaims who God is so that you may see who you truly are before Him and in turn see your desperate need for Christ Jesus who came to secure salvation for His people and not simply make salvation possible. Cry out to Him to give you a new heart and spirit so that you can obey His just command given to all to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, while He still gives you breath.

Why do you turn to personal attacks rather than stick to the theology we discussed? I am not willing to have an ad hominem war with anyone, and I certainly am in no position to judge another Christian on their walk with God. At this point, all I can say to you is what Paul declared in 2 TIm 1:12 ... I am not ashamed. For I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that Day.

 

[Mercy Shown]

Four mentions of works in a post that says works aren't needed You can't make this stuff up

I do not consider "willingness" work, and it is rather unreasonable to suggest that it is. One can be willing to mow the lawn and yet not have a lawn mower. That does not mean that they worked at all. But it does indicate that if given a suitable mower, they would mow the lawn. "Willingness" is a state of mind, not an action.

It is pretty easy to "win" a debate when one makes up one's own definitions of words. Also, scorn is not an intellectual argument.

 

[concretecamper]

I do not consider "willingness" work, and it is rather unreasonable to suggest that it is. One can be willing to mow the lawn and yet not have a lawn mower. That does not mean that they worked at all. But it does indicate that if given a suitable mower, they would mow the lawn. "Willingness" is a state of mind, not an action.

It is pretty easy to "win" a debate when one makes up one's own definitions of words. Also, scorn is not an intellectual argument.

" We accept it through the willingness to obey and surrender of our wills to Christ"

I see. We ought to be willing to surrender and obey, but we don't really need to. Are you sure you want to go there?

 

[Mercy Shown]

" We accept it through the willingness to obey and surrender of our wills to Christ"

I see. What ought to be willing to surrender and obey, but we don't really need to. Are you sure you want to go there?

God works in us and awakens from spiritual death. Eph 2:5. The dead cannot choose to live but the living can choose to die. Read Galations. O, foolish Galatians who has bewitched you... So as you see, you must be willing to obey and surrender.

 

[maxamir]

Why do you turn to personal attacks rather than stick to the theology we discussed? I am not willing to have an ad hominem war with anyone, and I certainly am in no position to judge another Christian on their walk with God. At this point, all I can say to you is what Paul declared in 2 TIm 1:12 ... I am not ashamed. For I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that Day.

All Christians are called to submit to God's Word and each other by making judgements not according to their own opinions or emotions but upon Scripture alone and I sincerely hope and pray that you would come to realise that I only sought to correct you according to the Scriptures in love for it is given for this very reason.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

[Mercy Shown]

All Christians are called to submit to God's Word and each other by making judgements not according to their own opinions or emotions but upon Scripture alone and I sincerely hope and pray that you would come to realise that I only sought to correct you according to the Scriptures in love for it is given for this very reason.

Please don't fool yourself. I mean that seriously. If we examine our hearts before God, we will clearly see the hubris and condescension. "O, wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from this body of death?

Jesus Christ.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

I also tried to correct you, but that was a fool's errand, for no one can convince another of their peers of anything. I know God is not responsible for evil, nor did He purpose it. The whole exercise of the cross was to protect humanity's free will to either submit and serve him or remain in their death.

God did not want companion bots predestined to love him. God's sovereignty includes the sovereign ability to grant mankind the choice.

 

[maxamir]

Please don't fool yourself. I mean that seriously. If we examine our hearts before God, we will clearly see the hubris and condescension. "O, wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from this body of death?

Jesus Christ.

I also tried to correct you, but that was a fool's errand, for no one can convince another of their peers of anything. I know God is not responsible for evil, nor did He purpose it. The whole exercise of the cross was to protect humanity's free will to either submit and serve him or remain in their death.

God did not want companion bots predestined to love him. God's sovereignty includes the sovereign ability to grant mankind the choice.

obviously you are judicially blinded by a perfectly jealous God from seeing the truth for robbing Him of the glory of His salvation and giving it to the choice of wicked men and nothing I tell you can change your mind unless God has eternally decreed to do so.

I know that He uses his truth to either save some or fatten others up unto His just slaughter but that is not the God you have created in your mind to suit your sins and the truth you have heard will either continue to fatten you up unto your greater condemnation or humble you sometime in the future. I sincerely hope and pray it is the latter and that you have absolutely no peace in your life until He does so.

 

[Mercy Shown]

obviously you are judicially blinded by a perfectly jealous God from seeing the truth for robbing Him of the glory of His salvation and giving it to the choice of wicked men and nothing I tell you can change your mind unless God has eternally decreed to do so.

This an ad hominem fallacy has no support, therefore it may be dismissed without support.

I know that He uses his truth to either save some or fatten others up unto His just slaughter

Ez 33:11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’

Here, God is giving His people a free will choice and pleading with them to make the right one.

2 Cor 5:20 Therefore we are ambassadors of the Messiah; in effect, God is making his appeal through us. What we do is appeal on behalf of the Messiah, “Be reconciled to God!

Here we see God making His appeal through us. He is not programing people to be saved and lost.

but that is not the God you have created in your mind to suit your sins and the truth you have heard will either continue to fatten you up unto your greater condemnation or humble you sometime in the future. I sincerely hope and pray it is the latter and that you have absolutely no peace in your life until He does so.

I will pray that He will convict you about judgementalism and give you a heart of love like His own.