Salvation is a free gift but only to those who want it above all else.

[Rescued One]

I might read this long thread someday but I doubt it.

 

[maxamir]

This is quite a post. Any man who would put themselves in the place of God to make such spiritual judgments about another person has demonstrated from whence they are inspired.

You have put God in man’s place, and you stepped up on the throne of judgment to condemn others for not believing what you believe.

Here you would use examples from the Old Testament to portray God as a person in heaven who created men to be wicked and some to be good and then had a hatred and anger for that which He created to be what it was.

You’ve intellectually painted yourself into a corner; however, I don’t think that your bias would allow you to realize it. If you were going to use the old Testament to get a proper picture of God, then you must agree that God can do things that he later regrets because the Old Testament says that’s true. In fact, you could go so far is to say God repents because that’s what the old testament says he did in several occasions.

You would also have to admit that God is not omniscient, but must come down from heaven to see what’s going on as his portrayed when he came down to examine the tower of Babel or when he came to examine the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Of course, your bias will filter those things out and use the other instances that support what you believe as proof texts.

Because you inserted your conclusion into your hypothesis and would not use all of the old Testament to paint a complete picture of God, but only the few selected parts that support your bias. You have impeached the rest of this post.

thank you for further proving that you do not yet know the God of Holy Scripture who is supremely sovereign, all powerful, all present and does whatever He pleases (Psa 115:3, 135:6) including having mercy and hardening whomever He wills (Rom 9:18) and does not repent (Num 23:19) because He does not change (Mal 3:6).

You need to stop dragging God into your finite box of time and learn what Anthropomorphism and Anthropopathism is. God sometimes communicates in a manner to man on his level to give him understanding of who He is, unless you somehow think that God literally has hands, eyes etc and a mind like man?

God is light and in Him is no darkness. He decreed that evil should come into this world which He created very good, by the choice of man at the temptation of the devil to demonstrate His holy hatred of evil to the praise of the glory of the goodness of His eternal justice and to demonstrate His holy .love in saving His people from that evil in Christ to the praise of the glory of His eternal grace. Man would not have known any of these attributes unless God had decreed these things which work for His greater glory and the greater good of His people as Joseph found out.

Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Do not wait for God to humble you like He did Nebuchadnezzar for him to come to understanding and confess the following.

Dan 4:34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

I condemn no person and have lovingly warned you of your error according to Scripture, as all Christians are commanded to do and know that is only God who can show you the truth, so I will continue to keep you in my prayers and hope He gives you absolutely no peace until you are humbled to His plain truth and hope that you would do the same for me if you think I am in error.

 

[Mercy Shown]

thank you for further proving that you do not yet know the God of Holy Scripture who is supremely sovereign, all powerful, all present and does whatever He pleases (Psa 115:3, 135:6) including having mercy and hardening whomever He wills (Rom 9:18) and does not repent (Num 23:19) because He does not change (Mal 3:6).

You need to stop dragging God into your finite box of time and learn what Anthropomorphism and Anthropopathism is. God sometimes communicates in a manner to man on his level to give him understanding of who He is, unless you somehow think that God literally has hands, eyes etc and a mind like man?

God is light and in Him is no darkness. He decreed that evil should come into this world which He created very good, by the choice of man at the temptation of the devil to demonstrate His holy hatred of evil to the praise of the glory of the goodness of His eternal justice and to demonstrate His holy .love in saving His people from that evil in Christ to the praise of the glory of His eternal grace. Man would not have known any of these attributes unless God had decreed these things which work for His greater glory and the greater good of His people as Joseph found out.

Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Do not wait for God to humble you like He did Nebuchadnezzar for him to come to understanding and confess the following.

Dan 4:34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

I condemn no person and have lovingly warned you of your error according to Scripture, as all Christians are commanded to do and know that is only God who can show you the truth, so I will continue to keep you in my prayers and hope He gives you absolutely no peace until you are humbled to His plain truth and hope that you would do the same for me if you think I am in error.

Your insults and condemnation is not something the Lord would want me to continue in. If you have the ability to post your points in a polite manner, I will respond but I have no desire to cast pearls.

 

[Dan1988]

I realize that you do not quiet grasp what is involved in translating text from one language to another but suffice it to say interpretation is an Intregal part of the process since sentence structure, punctuation and word equality are issues which must be resolved. Each translation is also an interpretation of the text.


This is a silly statement, you are tacitly claiming to know what all 45,000 denominations teach. Do you have anything of substance to add? Let’s pick a single point to discuss rather than trade innuendos. If we can’t do that then there is no point to having an insult food fight. God does not want this.

My bibles are all English translations, I don't need to learn Hebrew or Aramaic or Greek. All of the scriptures have already been translated into the English language. Now we have the luxury to choose from 900 different English translations, so why would I waste my time learning languages that less than 1% of the world speaks today.

Just like you, I'm not qualified to teach the scriptures because God has not appointed me to be a Shepherd, so I'm just an ordinary sheep like you. There's nothing worse than an ordinary garden variety Sheep pretending to be a Shepherd, it's like a pastry chef attempting to perform brain surgery.

The problem us ordinary Sheep face is finding a faithful Shepherd to teach us and watch our us and give account God for what they teach us, so our blood won't be on our own hands. All Sheep have itching ears, we all look for Shepherds to tickle our ears, in other words we set ourselves up as the final authority when choosing a Shepherd to teach us.

Each of the 45,000 Christian denominations departed from the original Church, there are 45,000 reasons for their departures. By far the most common reason is over authority, some Ministers set themselves up as the final authority in all matters and others do so to varying degrees. So the vast majority share the power and authority with God, effectively making themselves equal with God.

Very few serve God and give Him all the power and glory He deserves. Most Ministers love power and money, more than they love God, so they sell the gospel like a consumer product. They promise their followers health and prosperity if they give them their money, so most Churches are are run like a business. They set budget targets and give that the highest priority, instead of putting the spiritual health of their Church first.

If an ordinary Sheep goes out searching for a Church , using his or her wisdom and intuition to discern what a faithful Shepherd and Church should look like, they have a 97% chance of being deceived by a wolf in Sheep's clothing. The only way an ordinary sheep will find a faithful Church, is if God leads them to it. It's not something we can do on our own, because nobody likes to hear the truth because the truth of the gospel is awful, so we would never choose to sit under the preaching of the truth by our own choice.

I was Church shopping for two years, before I finally gave up and asked God to find a faithful Church. So He led me to the Church where He wants me to be, and I came to realize that I was looking for the wrong thing.

As for our discussion, I'd just like to ask you advice on how an ordinary Christian can determine if what I believe about the gospel is true, or if I have been deceived. I would first need to know what's true before I knew if what I'm being taught is true, so it's not a straight forward case of reading black and white scripture.

 

[ozso]

In my opinion there's more to salvation than what happens after we die. Salvation is supposed to save us in this world too. There's pitfalls in this life that I haven't become trapped in because of my salvation. There's good that I have done that I wouldn't have done without salvation. And bad that I have not done because of my salvation. Salvation gives us the ability to resist evil and strive towards holiness.

 

[Mercy Shown]

My bibles are all English translations, I don't need to learn Hebrew or Aramaic or Greek. All of the scriptures have already been translated into the English language. Now we have the luxury to choose from 900 different English translations, so why would I waste my time learning languages that less than 1% of the world speaks today.

Just like you, I'm not qualified to teach the scriptures because God has not appointed me to be a Shepherd, so I'm just an ordinary sheep like you. There's nothing worse than an ordinary garden variety Sheep pretending to be a Shepherd, it's like a pastry chef attempting to perform brain surgery.

The problem us ordinary Sheep face is finding a faithful Shepherd to teach us and watch our us and give account God for what they teach us, so our blood won't be on our own hands. All Sheep have itching ears, we all look for Shepherds to tickle our ears, in other words we set ourselves up as the final authority when choosing a Shepherd to teach us.

Each of the 45,000 Christian denominations departed from the original Church, there are 45,000 reasons for their departures. By far the most common reason is over authority, some Ministers set themselves up as the final authority in all matters and others do so to varying degrees. So the vast majority share the power and authority with God, effectively making themselves equal with God.

Very few serve God and give Him all the power and glory He deserves. Most Ministers love power and money, more than they love God, so they sell the gospel like a consumer product. They promise their followers health and prosperity if they give them their money, so most Churches are are run like a business. They set budget targets and give that the highest priority, instead of putting the spiritual health of their Church first.

If an ordinary Sheep goes out searching for a Church , using his or her wisdom and intuition to discern what a faithful Shepherd and Church should look like, they have a 97% chance of being deceived by a wolf in Sheep's clothing. The only way an ordinary sheep will find a faithful Church, is if God leads them to it. It's not something we can do on our own, because nobody likes to hear the truth because the truth of the gospel is awful, so we would never choose to sit under the preaching of the truth by our own choice.

I was Church shopping for two years, before I finally gave up and asked God to find a faithful Church. So He led me to the Church where He wants me to be, and I came to realize that I was looking for the wrong thing.

As for our discussion, I'd just like to ask you advice on how an ordinary Christian can determine if what I believe about the gospel is true, or if I have been deceived. I would first need to know what's true before I knew if what I'm being taught is true, so it's not a straight forward case of reading black and white scripture.

The Father draws us to Christ, and we have the most intimate relationship with God as we submit to the Father. He is our abba because Christ made a way for us through the veil to the most holy pace. That is why the temple veil, a curtain 30 feet high and 4 inches thick, was torn in two from the top down.

Jesus sends us the Holy Spirit, and Jesus is the truth, not man. Once a person has the Holy Spirit, there will be results. A person cannot have the Holy Spirit and have no change in their life. They will begin to bear much fruit: peace, joy, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, self-control, and love. We cannot achieve this by our own effort; it grows from The Spirit living in us and our daily submission to Him. That is why Jesus said, "Take up your cross and follow Me." The cross is for crucifixion, and in this case, it is the crucifixion of self by the Holy Spirit's power.

Religion will save no one. A church can't save anyone, either. Only Christ can save. Once we are saved, finding fellow Christians to fellowship with is what God wills for us. The truth isn't in doctrines or creeds; it is in Christ alone, and if you seek him and keep on seeking, you will find him.

But the short answer to your question is if your relationship with Christ is producing the fruit of the spirit in you, you can be assured that you are saved, if it is not, then seek the Father through Christ and ask and keep on asking and it shall be given onto you. Some times, I cry, "Abba, save me." He always hears.

 

[Mercy Shown]

The necessity of God's special revelation a despicable doctrine? The bible says:

“"All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and [the one] to whom the Son wills to reveal [Him].” (Mt 11:27 NKJV)

“15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called [me] through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood,” (Ga 1:15-16 NKJV)

How did you conflate "special Revelation" With the doctrine of predestination?

 

[Mercy Shown]

Hello Mercy Shown. Thank you for responding to my post.

Umm, I'm not sure the quote you gave is from John Calvin. The quote is actually point #4 from "The Remonstrance" (1610) that was part of the Arminians declaration against some Calvinist doctrine. I'm not suggesting Calvin didn't believe something like point #4 states, just that it is not his quote. Although your point is the same, I suspect.

Looking over your other posts to others, it looks like what you are trying to say is ...

You are correct; the point remains the same.

To summarize, you are asserting that God wishes all to be saved and sent His Son to die for the sins of the world . Is that correct? Here is something from J.C. Ryle (Anglican Bishop 1800s)...

Calvin writes, “As the whole matter of our salvation must not be sought any where else than in Christ, so we must see whence Christ came to us, and why he was offered to be our Savior. Both points are distinctly stated to us: namely, that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish.

Yes, and he is correct. I noticed Ryle using " offered. " This generally raises the hackles for Calvinists.

And another quote from Calvin regarding Isa 53:12... “As the whole matter of our salvation must not be sought any where else than in Christ, so we must see whence Christ came to us, and why he was offered to be our Savior. Both points are distinctly stated to us: namely, that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish.

This is another example of Calvin's twisted theology. From what I can untangle, there was a catch. Even though Christ died for all, only the predestined would receive God's power to hear it and be saved, while the damned were denied this advantage. How else do you explain this quote from Calvin?

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. [John Calvin. Institutes of the Christian Religion, ed. John T. McNeill, trans. Ford Lewis Battles, 2 vols. (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1960), 3.21.5.]

I'm assuming you will hold to a "Christ died for all" position. Are you aware of the distinction between "Atonement Accomplished" and "Atonement Applied"?

This is a theologian's parsings. The Bible teaches that God reconciled Himself to the whole world and set us as ambassadors of that reconciliation. We are called to make God's appeal to the unsaved to be reconciled to God. People will die in their sins needlessly simply because they refuse to accept the reconciliation God offers them.

The Bible only says atonement.

A final question so I understand your position you are arguing. Do you hold that the Bible teaches any form of election/predestination? I don't need to know it in detail, just whether you hold the Bible teaches such.

Peace be with you my brother

Yes, it is there for all to read. Predestination is the act of setting one's destination ahead of time. God may have set my destination ahead of time, but I still miss it because I refused to get on the train. If God would that all men should be saved, then has he not set the destination of all men to salvation? If so then why will so many be lost?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Too much meanness up in here. I am going for an ice cream.

2 Timothy 2:23-26 KJV
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

 

[Dan1988]

The Father draws us to Christ, and we have the most intimate relationship with God as we submit to the Father. He is our abba because Christ made a way for us through the veil to the most holy pace. That is why the temple veil, a curtain 30 feet high and 4 inches thick, was torn in two from the top down.

Jesus sends us the Holy Spirit, and Jesus is the truth, not man. Once a person has the Holy Spirit, there will be results. A person cannot have the Holy Spirit and have no change in their life. They will begin to bear much fruit: peace, joy, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, self-control, and love. We cannot achieve this by our own effort; it grows from The Spirit living in us and our daily submission to Him. That is why Jesus said, "Take up your cross and follow Me." The cross is for crucifixion, and in this case, it is the crucifixion of self by the Holy Spirit's power.

Religion will save no one. A church can't save anyone, either. Only Christ can save. Once we are saved, finding fellow Christians to fellowship with is what God wills for us. The truth isn't in doctrines or creeds; it is in Christ alone, and if you seek him and keep on seeking, you will find him.

But the short answer to your question is if your relationship with Christ is producing the fruit of the spirit in you, you can be assured that you are saved, if it is not, then seek the Father through Christ and ask and keep on asking and it shall be given onto you. Some times, I cry, "Abba, save me." He always hears.

That's all well and good for those who are already saved, but how would you convince someone who is not converted or saved to "seek the Father". We all agree that saved people receive all those blessings you mentioned, but we can't convince an unbeliever to seek the Father through Christ.

God must draw the unbeliever to Himself and regenerate him from his dead state and quicken him to life and convert him and sanctify him and transform him and give him a new nature and give him the gift of repentance and give him the gift faith so he can continue to believe, and give him the gift of the Holy Spirit so he can persevere and endure to the end of the race and when he dies God gives him the gift of the mind of Christ and an immortal, glorified, sinless body and then the person is finally saved forever.

The bible states plainly that salvation is all of the Lord, from start to finish so we have nothing to boast about.
But the gospel message is rejected by most professing Christians because they insist that salvation is not all of the lord, but it's a joint effort between God and man. This view suggests that Jesus didn't finish the work of salvation on the cross and He needs our help to get the job done, but this position is not supported by the bible.

So we can talk about all of the blessing, a believer receives from God but none of it applies to unbelievers. The only thing they get from God is His wrath and hatred and judgement. It's our duty to share the gospel with everyone and the way we live our lives should bare a good testimony to all those around us. There's no point in sharing the gospel with unbelievers if we don't don't live according g to what we preach, they say our actions speak louder than words.

If you believe that God is almighty, all powerful, all knowing and omnipresent, then you will have no trouble believing that we are saved by Gods grace and He is those One who chooses to save some people and leave others in their sin.
He does use the means of preaching to draw His chosen people to Himself, and we don't know who He has chosen to save, so we have to proclaim the gospel to everyone.

 

[Dan1988]

In my opinion there's more to salvation than what happens after we die. Salvation is supposed to save us in this world too. There's pitfalls in this life that I haven't become trapped in because of my salvation. There's good that I have done that I wouldn't have done without salvation. And bad that I have not done because of my salvation. Salvation gives us the ability to resist evil and strive towards holiness.

From our human perspective, salvation is a slow and painful process. But from Gods perspective, the deal was signed, sealed and delivered before He created the world.

So it can be said we are being saved and we are already saved, at the same time. It just depends on which perspective we look at it from.

 

[Dan1988]

Too much meanness up in here. I am going for an ice cream.

2 Timothy 2:23-26 KJV
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

OK, so you're better than us foolish garden variety Christians who ask foolish questions. Shouldn't you show us mercy and loving correcting us by showing us which questions are foolish and unlearned.

You may be smarter and wiser than us, but mocking us and throwing us under the bus doesn't serve any good purpose.

 

[Mercy Shown]

That's all well and good for those who are already saved, but how would you convince someone who is not converted or saved to "seek the Father". We all agree that saved people receive all those blessings you mentioned, but we can't convince an unbeliever to seek the Father through Christ.

We can't, but God can. The best we can do is what Christ told the demoniac to do after He was redeemed from his demons. Go and tell others what Christ has done for you. Pray for opportunities and wisdom to see those opportunities. God's word through you will not return empty onto Him.

We may never see the results of God using us until we are in heaven.

God must draw the unbeliever to Himself and regenerate him from his dead state and quicken him to life and convert him and sanctify him and transform him and give him a new nature and give him the gift of repentance and give him the gift faith so he can continue to believe, and give him the gift of the Holy Spirit so he can persevere and endure to the end of the race and when he dies God gives him the gift of the mind of Christ and an immortal, glorified, sinless body and then the person is finally saved forever.

Even now, we can let this mind be in us, which was in Christ Jesus, by submitting to God, praying, and studying. We have no pressure because Jesus does it all. We are the Glove, and God is the hand. Even though He gives the same opportunity for all to submit to HIm, he knows those who are his before they were ever born. That is where predestination comes in.

When we were in Africa, we grew corn to feed the hungry. We planted 4 seeds per hill, and when they sprouted, we thinned the crop by picking out the yellow stalks. Even though we gave all the seeds water and fertilizer, we did the work for the harvest.

The bible states plainly that salvation is all of the Lord, from start to finish so we have nothing to boast about.
But the gospel message is rejected by most professing Christians because they insist that salvation is not all of the lord, but it's a joint effort between God and man. This view suggests that Jesus didn't finish the work of salvation on the cross and He needs our help to get the job done, but this position is not supported by the bible.

It is not a joint effort. Salvation is of the Lord, period. Most religions, including a good many Christian camps, believe that it is in this sequence.

Repent ---> Come to Jesus ---> Do good work --->Recieve salvation. But the New Testament reveals that this is baas backward. It teaches us that it is this sequence.

Jesus comes to us and quickens us ---> Salvation is given us --->We choose to submit in repentance--->Good works naturally follow.

So we can talk about all of the blessing, a believer receives from God but none of it applies to unbelievers. The only thing they get from God is His wrath and hatred and judgement. It's our duty to share the gospel with everyone and the way we live our lives should bare a good testimony to all those around us. There's no point in sharing the gospel with unbelievers if we don't don't live according g to what we preach, they say our actions speak louder than words.

Unbelievers receive what they want most: independence from God. But the end of that is death since life can only come from God.

If you believe that God is almighty, all powerful, all knowing and omnipresent, then you will have no trouble believing that we are saved by Gods grace and He is those One who chooses to save some people and leave others in their sin.

No, He would never do that. God is love, and God is fair. It is man's choice to reject God that destroys them.

He does use the means of preaching to draw His chosen people to Himself, and we don't know who He has chosen to save, so we have to proclaim the gospel to everyone.

He would that all men should be saved. Anyone who does not resist will be saved.

Jesus used way to many "if's for there not to be a choice."

 

[Mercy Shown]

From our human perspective, salvation is a slow and painful process. But from Gods perspective, the deal was signed, sealed and delivered before He created the world.

So it can be said we are being saved and we are already saved, at the same time. It just depends on which perspective we look at it from.

Yes. This is so. But this does not negate our free choice. It simply means that God could see all time at once.

 

[Mercy Shown]

Too much meanness up in here. I am going for an ice cream.

2 Timothy 2:23-26 KJV
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Why not bring some kindness into it?

 

[Mercy Shown]

-
​

So actually you believe salvation is not free.

Why would you ask such a question? What does the bible tell us? Eternal life is a free Gift of God through Jesus Christ.

 

[All Becomes New]

Well said, OP.

 

[Dan1988]

Yes. This is so. But this does not negate our free choice. It simply means that God could see all time at once.

Your one line response, perfectly sums up the Synergistic Arminian gospel interpretation. But the Church is divided between those who hold to this interpretation and those of us who hold to the Monergistic Calvinist view of the gospel. Every Christian denomination holds to one of these two interpretations.

It should be noted that the printing press wasn't invented until around 550 years ago, so bibles were not available. There were only around 5 Christian denominations up until the 1500's when Martin Luther and the other Reformers broke away from the Roma Catholic Church. Since that time, the Church has disintegrated into some 45,000 denominations.

The debate over which gospel interpretation is the biblically correct one, has been raging for the past 500 years and instead of resolving the debate, it has caused more denominations to break away and the number is set grow even larger. Jesus established One Church, but denominations came about when some in the Church departed to form their own denomination, because they didn't agree with each other.

http://heavenslight.org/wp-content/...vinism_and_Arminianism_TULIP_Chart_1_2007.pdf

 

[Apple Sky]

Salvation is like a reservation, the room has been booked for you free of charge & it's up to you whether you accept it or not.

 

[Dan1988]

Salvation is like a reservation, the room has been booked for you free of charge & it's up to you whether you accept it or not.

So, you reckon the vast majority of mankind will reject the free offer of eternal paradise and choose eternal torment in the lake of fire.

I can't imagine why the most gifted, intelligent people can't figure out that eternal paradise is better than eternal torment in the lake of fire.

If you believe the worlds greatest minds are that stupid, then I a have fresh batch of snake oil, going for just $500 per bottle. And I'll throw in a opera house for the first 20 customers.