Sacrifice and Catholic teaching

[FireDragon76]

There is a great deal of substantial agreement between Lutherans and Catholics on the Mass, as outline in ecumenical agreements. I think the issue is that our tradition is uncomfortable with some of the language Catholics use, because we believe it potentially could obscure the relationship between our works and the gratuity of God's gifts. But we do indeed understand the Mass sacrificially, to some extent.

However, Masses still are offered for the souls in Purgatory and other intentions, meaning that the Mass has to be a sacrifice in theory for it to have a sacrificial effect, not just a representation or symbol.

I see this as potentially a distinction without much difference. Lutherans also offer prayers on behalf of their community and the world during our Eucharist (and we are not doctrinally opposed to praying for the dead). It really comes down to whether private masses are proper. Lutherans would say no, the Mass is not the private act of a priest. I believe the tendency among many Catholics now days is to emphasize the communal aspect as well.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

So worship in the Baptist Church and let the Roman Church be. Your opinion isn't going to change our worship service.

Its nothing to do with "opinion", but what the Holy Bible teaches. Or does this not matter?

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

From a Catholic prospective, outside the Catholic and Orthodox Church's, the bread and wine remain bread and wine. So the answer to your question is no.

Its not about the "Catholic prospective", or any other "prospective", but what the Holy Bible, the Infallible, Inerrant Word of Almighty God says! The so called "traditions" of the church are not as important as what the Scriptures teach, unless you don't really care what God says on any issue?

 

[mikeangel]

The sacrifice that Christ offered to His Father on the Cross at Golgotha is an eternal sacrifice, my Brother...
The re-enactment of that Sacrifice in the breaking of the Bread by the Body of Christ constitutes the participation of His Body, the Church, in that Sacrifice, and their receiving of the Communion of His Body and Blood, for as Christ Himself is recorded as saying, IF you do NOT eat My Body and drink My Blood, you have NO Life IN you...

The Divine Liturgy that consecrates the Body and Blood of our Lord is an eternal and ongoing Liturgy at the Throne of the Lamb, to which the Body of Christ joins itself on earth in obedience to Christ's command that we do so...

So to your question: "Is there ANY moment...?" I would enjoin you to consider: THAT one moment encompasses EVERY moment where the Master's Body and Blood are consecrated according to His commands... He consecrated His Own Body and Blood BEFORE He had been lifted up upon the Cross, which is a clue to its timelessness... And He instructed that we do so ourselves as a remembrance - eg a re-living - of Him sacrificing Himself on the Cross...

Any help?

Arsenios

#1 Thanks for trying. But still, you are not reading the statement made by the Catholic Encyclopedia about this. I know what I was taught. The same thing you are trying to relate to me. That at the mass, you are celebrating the one sacrifice at Calvary. That its like you go back to the same one moment 2000+ yrs ago to the moment he died. But, the Catholic Encyclopedia states, " it is not just a mere relation, but is "IN ITSELF A REAL SACRIFICE" . Its like you all are not reading what this says, but are quoting the party line over and over. This states that it doesn't just relate to Calvary, like one sacrifice over and over like you postulate, but is "In Itself a real sacrifice".

#2 In the Eucharistic prayers, The Priest says "May my sacrifice and yours be acceptable to God" (the consecration about to be done). If what you say is true, wouldn't it be "May our connection to our Lords Sacrifice be made complete" or something similar?

#3 Also, if the Cannon definition to this, is it is the same as on Calvary except it is unbloody, if you are taught that it is the Very Blood of Christ, not a symbol?

 

[mikeangel]

It seems like you are describing an endless sacrifice, not a once-and-for-all sacrifice. This is not what scripture says Jesus is doing.

"Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." Heb 10:11-13

Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father waiting for all enemies to be made his footstool - not engaging in a liturgy consecrating his already Holy and sinless blood. Christ's blood is holy and consecrated by His own nature as God. Why would He need to purify it further or continue to purify it? Has it ever been tainted or unholy or not set apart?

"God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood--to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished." Rom 3:25

Do we receive the blood of the sacrifice by reliving the sacrifice? No. We receive the atonement by faith that Christ was the once-and-for-all sacrifice.

"All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world." Rev 13:8

"He was known before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in the last times for your sake." I Pet 1:20

Christ and His sacrifice was part of the plan from the foundation of the world, which was revealed to man at the appropriate time by one physical death on the cross.

"In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.""

The wine doesn't represent a physical actualization of a single sacrifice over and over - it's a sign of the new covenant. We proclaim the Lord's death whenever we partake - not because He dies again or some aspect of His death is happening at that moment, but because we declare that His was the once-for-all and only death which could atone for our sins.

Once for all. You got the point of what Paul was saying. The very passage in Hebrews is what started me on this strange journey out of my "normal life", because that did not make sense to me at all in line with what I was taught for 45 years. Peace

 

[mikeangel]

Its not about the "Catholic prospective", or any other "prospective", but what the Holy Bible, the Infallible, Inerrant Word of Almighty God says! The so called "traditions" of the church are not as important as what the Scriptures teach, unless you don't really care what God says on any issue?

Like you , I believe in the word of God, and it is our guide. It is King. (JOHN 1:1). He was the word made flesh, and we hang on every word that he said, and what his, and his Fathers spirit have inspired and demonstrated through out history as recorded in the Bible.
I noticed you are Baptist. And in the UK. In the USA, the Baptist here state that Communion is a symbol, not literal, and just a "memorial" meal. But Jesus said, "this is my body". Also he took wine, and gave it to them to drink. Not grape juice. Not much alcohol in the wine back then, but it was wine. Most Baptist here say that drinking any type of Alcohol is wrong, and is why they use grape juice alone. If the Bible is King and inerrant, then why do Baptist practice communion like this? Peace

 

[mikeangel]

Jesus does not get sacrificed again. The mass is done in memory of what happened. It's like the retelling of a story. No sacrifice happens!

The bread and wine become the body and blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Some great info here and the real truth about the Catholic mass and the Eucharist.

Is the Mass a Sacrifice? | Catholic Answers

I read some of this........
At one point, it states-
"He appears in heaven in the state of a victim not because he still needs to suffer but because for all eternity he re-presents himself to God appealing to the work of the cross,"

No. He is sitting at right hand of God, waiting for his enemys to be made his footstool. And this directly contradicts what is written in the Book of Hebrews, that it was a once and forever, once and for all, sacrifice. Re-Presenting himself to God????? Does he get up, walk out of the firey Temple, and walk back in and out over and over each mass? Are you kidding? You need scripture to make your points. Not fantasy or opinion. Thank you. Peace

 

[mikeangel]

I notice that there are many on these forums that don't like being proved wrong, especially when it comes to Catholic questions etc. They refuse to see it in a Catholic light. It's only their way or no way!

So, let me inform you in a "Catholic light", by a Catholic source. This is from a Catholic magazine-

The Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass: A Primer for Clueless Catholics

Fittingly called "primer for clueless Catholics"

Let me quote you a few things-

"The Mass, first and foremost, is a Sacrifice. Not a figurative sacrifice, not a mere remembrance of something done long ago, and not a metaphor. It is a real sacrifice."
And then later-
"
Beyond the doors we will encounter something that we have never experienced in our lives: the Sacrifice — not of bread and wine; not even a merely “commemorative”, still less a “symbolic”, Sacrifice. No. We will witness the Sacrifice of a Human Being.

We will witness death."

I know you will quote someones opinion to explain this, as painfully obvious as this is. But there is more-

"Jesus Christ is being crucified before you. He is on the Cross! And you are witnessing it. You are even taking part in it!"

And Hebrews states-"
“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”AB)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-30151AB" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;">

18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary."

Just sayin. Peace

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

Like you , I believe in the word of God, and it is our guide. It is King. (JOHN 1:1). He was the word made flesh, and we hang on every word that he said, and what his, and his Fathers spirit have inspired and demonstrated through out history as recorded in the Bible.
I noticed you are Baptist. And in the UK. In the USA, the Baptist here state that Communion is a symbol, not literal, and just a "memorial" meal. But Jesus said, "this is my body". Also he took wine, and gave it to them to drink. Not grape juice. Not much alcohol in the wine back then, but it was wine. Most Baptist here say that drinking any type of Alcohol is wrong, and is why they use grape juice alone. If the Bible is King and inerrant, then why do Baptist practice communion like this? Peace

in case you did not know, there are many "shades" of Baptist, anywhere in the world!

 

[PeaceB]

As you've seen, it's merely a change of words. The church used to teach that it was the "unbloody sacrifice of the Cross," but, facing increased skepticism from modern day Catholics, reworded it to be a "re-presentation" of the original sacrifice. However, Masses still are offered for the souls in Purgatory and other intentions, meaning that the Mass has to be a sacrifice in theory for it to have a sacrificial effect, not just a representation or symbol.

No, the Mass has been characterized as a re-presentation at least from the Council of Trent:

~The Council of Trent - Session 22~​

Forasmuch as, under the former Testament, according to the testimony of the Apostle Paul, there was no perfection, because of the weakness of the Levitical priesthood; there was need, God, the Father of mercies, so ordaining, that another priest should rise, according to the order of Melchisedech, our Lord Jesus Christ, who might consummate, and lead to what is perfect, as many as were to be sanctified. He, therefore, our God and Lord, though He was about to offer Himself once on the altar of the cross unto God the Father, by means of his death, there to operate an eternal redemption; nevertheless, because that His priesthood was not to be extinguished by His death, in the last supper, on the night in which He was betrayed,--that He might leave, to His own beloved Spouse the Church, a visible sacrifice, such as the nature of man requires, whereby that bloody sacrifice, once to be accomplished on the cross, might be represented, and the memory thereof remain even unto the end of the world, and its salutary virtue be applied to the remission of those sins which we daily commit,--declaring Himself constituted a priest for ever, according to the order of Melchisedech, He offered up to God the Father His own body and blood under the species of bread and wine; and, under the symbols of those same things, He delivered (His own body and blood) to be received by His apostles, whom He then constituted priests of the New Testament; and by those words, Do this in commemoration of me, He commanded them and their successors in the priesthood, to offer (them); even as the Catholic Church has always understood and taught.​

Please educate yourself before spreading falsehoods.

 

[PeaceB]

Catholics say, that the "sacrifice of the mass", is a representation of Calvary, not a re-sacrifice. But the breakdown of what is happening during the consecration, in the Catholic Encyclopedia, sounds like a separate sacrifice to me. Here is a discussion I was having with a Catholic friend of mine-

" This statement is from the Catholic encyclopedia. You might say "its not cannon" but not everything the priest and seminary teach is in the cannon, and to discover the subtle differences you have to read the encyclopedia. Written by priest and important "theologians". You need a lawyer to read it. The exposition of "the sacrifice of the mass" is Pages long. But I found that this summary sums up what they believe about it. It states-

• the twofold consecration must show not only the relative, but also the absolute moment of sacrifice, so that the Mass will not consist in a mere relation, but will be revealed as in itself a real sacrifice;
• the act of sacrifice (actio sacrifica), veiled in the double consecration, must refer directly to the sacrificialmatter — i.e. the Eucharistic Christ Himself — not to the elements of bread and wine or their unsubstantial species;
• the sacrifice of Christ must somehow result in a kenosis, not in a glorification, since this latter is at most the object of the sacrifice, not the sacrifice itself;
• since this postulated kenosis, however, can be no real, but only a mystical or sacramental one, we must appraise intelligently those moments which approximate in any degree the "mystical slaying" to a real exinanition, instead of rejecting them.

#1 And most important-the only "moment of sacrifice" was the last beat Jesus' heart made on the cross. If there is in the mass a definite "moment of sacrifice" that is a symbolic re-sacrifice.

#2 This is proven in the next statement-"the Mass will not consist in a mere relation, but will be revealed as in itself a real sacrifice;" This says that it does not just relate to calvary, but is "In Itself a real sacrifice". Direct contradiction.

#3 The term "Mystical slaying" forever changed my comfort in the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

#4. In the Eucharistic prayers said before the consecration, the priest says, "May my sacrifice and yours be acceptable to God" Again, another separate sacrifice

#5. If by cannon definition the sacrifice is the same as on Calvary except that it is unbloody, then why was I taught from preschool that it was actually the very blood of Christ, NOT a symbol?"

How can Catholics allow this to be in the Encyclopedia?

This is a good explanation of the Mass:

The Mass as an actual sacrifice in Catholic Tradition. by Fr. Thomas Crean O.P.

 

[PeaceB]

So, let me inform you in a "Catholic light", by a Catholic source. This is from a Catholic magazine-

The Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass: A Primer for Clueless Catholics

Fittingly called "primer for clueless Catholics"

Let me quote you a few things-

"The Mass, first and foremost, is a Sacrifice. Not a figurative sacrifice, not a mere remembrance of something done long ago, and not a metaphor. It is a real sacrifice."
And then later-
"
Beyond the doors we will encounter something that we have never experienced in our lives: the Sacrifice — not of bread and wine; not even a merely “commemorative”, still less a “symbolic”, Sacrifice. No. We will witness the Sacrifice of a Human Being.

We will witness death."

I know you will quote someones opinion to explain this, as painfully obvious as this is. But there is more-

"Jesus Christ is being crucified before you. He is on the Cross! And you are witnessing it. You are even taking part in it!"

And Hebrews states-"
“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”AB)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-30151AB" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;">

18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary."

Just sayin. Peace

In Catholic theology, who is the true high priest at every Mass?

 

[PeaceB]

Its not about the "Catholic prospective", or any other "prospective", but what the Holy Bible, the Infallible, Inerrant Word of Almighty God says! The so called "traditions" of the church are not as important as what the Scriptures teach, unless you don't really care what God says on any issue?

Don’t you mean “The Tradition of the Church that Jesus personally founded while he walked the earth is not as important as my private interpretation of Scripture”?

 

[PeaceB]

My own understanding is that it is more than a remembrance.
The bread and win are not just remembrances of Jesus but ARE the body and blood of Jesus as that body and blood was sacrificed at Calvary in Jerusalem circa 33AD and offered to us as food at the Last Supper.
Likewise, the Mass is not just a remembrance of Calvary, but IS Calvary as the historic crucifixion of the Lord echoes across time.
At the Mass and the Liturgy of the Euchararist we enter in the Holy ground of Calvary and are present on the Sacred ground of Calvary. The Mass is not a re-enactment of Calvary. The Mass IS Calvary. Calvary is an event that is present for us eternally for as long as there is time, and the Body and the Blood of Christ sacrificed at Calvary likewise is eternally present for us.
In Catholicism there is the distinguishing between ordinary time that we experience in our day to day lives, and extraordinary time. The Euchrarist takes place in extraordinary time.
In normal experience, time is perceived as an absolute, a one-way progression from irretrievable past to future potential with life lived in the ever progressing moment of the Present. In the extraordinary time of the Eucharist, time is not absolute, but relative to absolute axis of the Cross of our Lord.

I am not sure if this is 100% correct. The Eucharist is His glorified body. His body at the last supper and on the cross were not glorified.

In some sense Mass is as though we are present at Calvary, but it is not as though some type of time travel is going on by which we are magically taken back to the foot of the cross. I would look at the article I posted, which describes several traditional ways of characterizing the Mass.

 

[Antig]

Sorry, not acceptable source.

Very much acceptable to a Catholic

 

[Antig]

You seriously think that every time, around the world, when the Lord's Supper is taken by millions of Christians, that Jesus Christ somehow gets into the wafer and wine? And then we eat and drink the Lord? It is no more that a "symbol" that "represents" the "body and blood" of the Lord Jesus. "Transubstantiation" is not a Bible teaching, and sounds very crude indeed!

Catholics believe it. That is all that matters

 

[Antig]

Its nothing to do with "opinion", but what the Holy Bible teaches. Or does this not matter?

It's how you view the words written. Obviously you are getting a different view than Catholics.

 

[Antig]

Its not about the "Catholic prospective", or any other "prospective", but what the Holy Bible, the Infallible, Inerrant Word of Almighty God says! The so called "traditions" of the church are not as important as what the Scriptures teach, unless you don't really care what God says on any issue?

You are reading the scripture wrong. You are getting your very own private view of it.

 

[Antig]

Like you , I believe in the word of God, and it is our guide. It is King. (JOHN 1:1). He was the word made flesh, and we hang on every word that he said, and what his, and his Fathers spirit have inspired and demonstrated through out history as recorded in the Bible.
I noticed you are Baptist. And in the UK. In the USA, the Baptist here state that Communion is a symbol, not literal, and just a "memorial" meal. But Jesus said, "this is my body". Also he took wine, and gave it to them to drink. Not grape juice. Not much alcohol in the wine back then, but it was wine. Most Baptist here say that drinking any type of Alcohol is wrong, and is why they use grape juice alone. If the Bible is King and inerrant, then why do Baptist practice communion like this? Peace

How do you know it was just grape juice!

 

[Antig]

I read some of this........
At one point, it states-
"He appears in heaven in the state of a victim not because he still needs to suffer but because for all eternity he re-presents himself to God appealing to the work of the cross,"

No. He is sitting at right hand of God, waiting for his enemys to be made his footstool. And this directly contradicts what is written in the Book of Hebrews, that it was a once and forever, once and for all, sacrifice. Re-Presenting himself to God????? Does he get up, walk out of the firey Temple, and walk back in and out over and over each mass? Are you kidding? You need scripture to make your points. Not fantasy or opinion. Thank you. Peace

You are not a Catholic so see things very differently. It is very Biblical what the church teaches. You fail to see it.