Sacrifice and Catholic teaching

[concretecamper]

Catholics- It's not a hard question. Please answer without attacks. I'll state it again-

Answer this simple question please-Is there any "moment of sacrifice", symbolically or otherwise, other than when Jesus' heart beat its last beat and he gave up his spirit? Also, is there any "act of sacrifice" other than when the Romans crucified him?"

Your question has been answered.

Commence with the pillow talk.

 

[mikeangel]

You are looking at it wrongly. You are reading it wrongly.

Read the link I posted. It explains it for you.

Reading it wrong? How?

And, this is not about the link's explanation. This is about what the Catholic Encyclopedia states. Thanks

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Answer in link in post no:2

Sorry, not acceptable source.

 

[mikeangel]

Your question has been answered.

Commence with the pillow talk.

Just saying it is not a sacrifice, but a representation of the one sacrifice, does not answer, if there is another "moment of sacrifice" or "act of sacrifice", or why it states that it is not just a mere relation, but is "IN ITSELF A REAL SACRIFICE" (emphasis added for clarity) Direct questions with room for direct answers. Peace

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Just saying it is not a sacrifice, but a representation of the one sacrifice, does not answer, if there is another "moment of sacrifice" or "act of sacrifice", or why it states that it is not just a mere relation, but is "IN ITSELF A REAL SACRIFICE" (emphasis added for clarity) Direct questions with room for direct answers. Peace

Apparently, if not obviously, the historical teachings and practices of many assemblies (multitudes)
changes a lot in the last 50 years trying to accomodate more people and hide the errors (of both the past and present) while the main emphasis remains at odds with the truth, which never changes.

 

[mikeangel]

If by cannon definition the sacrifice is the same as on Calvary except that it is unbloody, then why was I taught from preschool that it was actually the very blood of Christ, NOT a symbol?"

Also, this never got addressed.

 

[Arsenios]

Catholics- It's not a hard question. Please answer without attacks. I'll state it again-

Answer this simple question please-Is there any "moment of sacrifice", symbolically or otherwise, other than when Jesus' heart beat its last beat and he gave up his spirit? Also, is there any "act of sacrifice" other than when the Romans crucified him?"

The sacrifice that Christ offered to His Father on the Cross at Golgotha is an eternal sacrifice, my Brother...
The re-enactment of that Sacrifice in the breaking of the Bread by the Body of Christ constitutes the participation of His Body, the Church, in that Sacrifice, and their receiving of the Communion of His Body and Blood, for as Christ Himself is recorded as saying, IF you do NOT eat My Body and drink My Blood, you have NO Life IN you...

The Divine Liturgy that consecrates the Body and Blood of our Lord is an eternal and ongoing Liturgy at the Throne of the Lamb, to which the Body of Christ joins itself on earth in obedience to Christ's command that we do so...

So to your question: "Is there ANY moment...?" I would enjoin you to consider: THAT one moment encompasses EVERY moment where the Master's Body and Blood are consecrated according to His commands... He consecrated His Own Body and Blood BEFORE He had been lifted up upon the Cross, which is a clue to its timelessness... And He instructed that we do so ourselves as a remembrance - eg a re-living - of Him sacrificing Himself on the Cross...

Any help?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

How can Catholics allow this to be in the Encyclopedia?

Look - The Latin Church tried to turn Cannon Law into a codified legal system to rule the Church...
This is their problem then:

The Faith is not a codified legal system...

Cannons are the rules and guidelines FOR the Ekklesia, and are understood as always being susceptible to ekonomia as circumstances indicate... Ekonomia means the making of an exception in a particular case on the part of "them that have the rule over you" when such an exception is deemed desirable... The Faith of Christ is not all about crime and punishment, but is instead about the voluntary discipling of the faithful...

The Faith of Christ is a God-Quest wherein the Kingdom of Heaven is suffering violence, and the violent are siezing it by force, and that seizing is willful and guided by those who have succeeded...

No small matter...

Arsenios

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

willful and guided by those who have succeeded...

Who has succeeded after the first couple centuries?
(compare to ACTS, EPHESIANS, PHILIPPIANS, etc where they cast out demons and healed the sick everywhere the Apostles went, and where (at times anyway) they shared all things in common IN LINE with all YHWH'S WORD (not like man's ways/ communes, etc) .... )

 

[concretecamper]

Just saying it is not a sacrifice, but a representation of the one sacrifice, does not answer,

I never said this

, if there is another "moment of sacrifice" or "act of sacrifice", or why it states that it is not just a mere relation, but is "IN ITSELF A REAL SACRIFICE" (emphasis added for clarity)

As the great apostle said, there is One sacrifice.

With the information you have been provide by people on this thread you should have a good idea on the Sacrifice of the Mass.

Hopefully it should answer your questions, assuming your intent was genuine. However, the way you framed your OP leaves me wondering if it was.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

Jesus does not get sacrificed again. The mass is done in memory of what happened. It's like the retelling of a story. No sacrifice happens!

The bread and wine become the body and blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Some great info here and the real truth about the Catholic mass and the Eucharist.

Is the Mass a Sacrifice? | Catholic Answers

Can you quote from a single Scripture, where it says, "The bread and wine become the body and blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ."?

 

[Arsenios]

Who has succeeded after the first couple centuries?
(compare to ACTS, EPHESIANS, PHILIPPIANS, etc where they cast out demons and healed the sick everywhere the Apostles went, and where (at times anyway) they shared all things in common IN LINE with all YHWH'S WORD (not like man's ways/ communes, etc) .... )

Every generation has its Holy Ones... Healing the sick, casting out demons, sharing all things in common... Those who do so are normally unknown... A few do become known... St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco is one who fairly recently died in the 1950's and was well known... The unknown ones have perhaps the greater impact... From their caves and holes in the ground and their cells, they show up at God's Will where needed and where God wants them to be...

St. John was pretty much a more Parish kind of Saint, miracle working and clairvoiant and healing all manner of illnesses, showing up in hospitals and sick beds within walking distance of his quarters as a barefoot Bishop - His feet were too swollen to fit into shoes - Did barefoot Church Services too... And spoke with a lisp... Cockeyed glasses and Mitre... Short and easy to miss... Ya just never know about these guys! He did not have a bed... Bathed every day in icy cold water shower...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Can you quote from a single Scripture, where it says, "The bread and wine become the body and blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ."?

Paul writes of Christ:
1Corinthians 11:24
And AFTER He had given thanks, He broke it, and said,
"Take. Eat:
This IS my body,
which is broken for you:
this do in remembrance of Me."

Granted, it does not use the word "become"... He uses the word IS...
Yet it was only AFTER the bread had been consecrated by Christ and broken
That is IS the Body of Christ... So that it is the Church, Christ's Body, that DOES this,
And does so by Christ's COMMAND... In real and ontological remembrance of Him...
Melchidesek also broke bread...

Arsenios

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

Paul writes of Christ:
1Corinthians 11:24
And AFTER He had given thanks, He broke it, and said,
"Take. Eat:
This IS my body,
which is broken for you:
this do in remembrance of Me."

Granted, it does not use the word "become"... He uses the word IS...
Yet it was only AFTER the bread had been consecrated by Christ and broken
That is IS the Body of Christ... So that it is the Church, Christ's Body, that DOES this,
And does so by Christ's COMMAND... In real and ontological remembrance of Him...
Melchidesek also broke bread...

Arsenios

You seriously think that every time, around the world, when the Lord's Supper is taken by millions of Christians, that Jesus Christ somehow gets into the wafer and wine? And then we eat and drink the Lord? It is no more that a "symbol" that "represents" the "body and blood" of the Lord Jesus. "Transubstantiation" is not a Bible teaching, and sounds very crude indeed!

 

[DavidFirth]

You seriously think that every time, around the world, when the Lord's Supper is taken by millions of Christians, that Jesus Christ somehow gets into the wafer and wine? And then we eat and drink the Lord? It is no more that a "symbol" that "represents" the "body and blood" of the Lord Jesus. "Transubstantiation" is not a Bible teaching, and sounds very crude indeed!

So worship in the Baptist Church and let the Roman Church be. Your opinion isn't going to change our worship service.

 

[concretecamper]

You seriously think that every time, around the world, when the Lord's Supper is taken by millions of Christians, that Jesus Christ somehow gets into the wafer and wine

From a Catholic prospective, outside the Catholic and Orthodox Church's, the bread and wine remain bread and wine. So the answer to your question is no.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

The sacrifice that Christ offered to His Father on the Cross at Golgotha is an eternal sacrifice, my Brother...
The re-enactment of that Sacrifice in the breaking of the Bread by the Body of Christ constitutes the participation of His Body, the Church, in that Sacrifice, and their receiving of the Communion of His Body and Blood, for as Christ Himself is recorded as saying, IF you do NOT eat My Body and drink My Blood, you have NO Life IN you...

The Divine Liturgy that consecrates the Body and Blood of our Lord is an eternal and ongoing Liturgy at the Throne of the Lamb, to which the Body of Christ joins itself on earth in obedience to Christ's command that we do so...

So to your question: "Is there ANY moment...?" I would enjoin you to consider: THAT one moment encompasses EVERY moment where the Master's Body and Blood are consecrated according to His commands... He consecrated His Own Body and Blood BEFORE He had been lifted up upon the Cross, which is a clue to its timelessness... And He instructed that we do so ourselves as a remembrance - eg a re-living - of Him sacrificing Himself on the Cross...

Any help?

Arsenios

It seems like you are describing an endless sacrifice, not a once-and-for-all sacrifice. This is not what scripture says Jesus is doing.

"Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." Heb 10:11-13

Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father waiting for all enemies to be made his footstool - not engaging in a liturgy consecrating his already Holy and sinless blood. Christ's blood is holy and consecrated by His own nature as God. Why would He need to purify it further or continue to purify it? Has it ever been tainted or unholy or not set apart?

"God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood--to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished." Rom 3:25

Do we receive the blood of the sacrifice by reliving the sacrifice? No. We receive the atonement by faith that Christ was the once-and-for-all sacrifice.

"All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world." Rev 13:8

"He was known before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in the last times for your sake." I Pet 1:20

Christ and His sacrifice was part of the plan from the foundation of the world, which was revealed to man at the appropriate time by one physical death on the cross.

"In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.""

The wine doesn't represent a physical actualization of a single sacrifice over and over - it's a sign of the new covenant. We proclaim the Lord's death whenever we partake - not because He dies again or some aspect of His death is happening at that moment, but because we declare that His was the once-for-all and only death which could atone for our sins.

 

[Arsenios]

Paul writes of Christ:
1Corinthians 11:24
And AFTER He had given thanks, He broke it, and said,
"Take. Eat:
This IS my body,
which is broken for you:
this do in remembrance of Me."

Granted, it does not use the word "become"... He uses the word IS...
Yet it was only AFTER the bread had been consecrated by Christ and broken
That is IS the Body of Christ... So that it is the Church, Christ's Body, that DOES this,
And does so by Christ's COMMAND... In real and ontological remembrance of Him...
Melchidesek also broke bread...

Arsenios

1Co_11:24
And after he had given thanks, he brake it, and said,
"Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you:
this do in remembrance of me."

The Disciples on the road to Emaeus did not recognize the Risen Lord UNTIL He brake bread with them...

Your argument would seem to be with Paul...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

It seems like you are describing an endless sacrifice, not a once-and-for-all sacrifice. This is not what scripture says Jesus is doing.

The once is not limited by time IF it is for ALL... It is a timeless Sacrifice...

"Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." Heb 10:11-13"

Yes, one timeless sacrifice...

Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father waiting for all enemies to be made his footstool - not engaging in a liturgy consecrating his already Holy and sinless blood. Christ's blood is holy and consecrated by His own nature as God. Why would He need to purify it further or continue to purify it? Has it ever been tainted or unholy or not set apart?

It's timelessness is a function of the fact that God is timeles... By this means, it has presence in all places and times...

"God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood--to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished." Rom 3:25

Yes, we must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood by obedience to Christ IN His Holy Body, the Church...

Do we receive the blood of the sacrifice by reliving the sacrifice? No. We receive the atonement by faith that Christ was the once-and-for-all sacrifice.

We receive it by eating His Body and drinking His Blood...

On this day of Christ's birth, it is not lost on the Orthodox that the Babe was placed in a manger, a place where food is eaten, where wheat is "grained" to the livestock, foreshadowing His Body and Blood as the bread and the wine...

"All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world." Rev 13:8

Sounds timeless to me...

"He was known before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in the last times for your sake." I Pet 1:20

ibid op cited...

Christ and His sacrifice was part of the plan from the foundation of the world, which was revealed to man at the appropriate time by one physical death on the cross.

"In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.""

Whenever = timeless...

The wine doesn't represent a physical actualization of a single sacrifice over and over - it's a sign of the new covenant. We proclaim the Lord's death whenever we partake - not because He dies again or some aspect of His death is happening at that moment, but because we declare that His was the once-for-all and only death which could atone for our sins.

Which makes it timeless...

Arsenios

 

[SolomonVII]

Also, how in the world can the term "Mystical Slaying" be used in reference to the mass, if there is only a remembrance of Calvary?

My own understanding is that it is more than a remembrance.
The bread and win are not just remembrances of Jesus but ARE the body and blood of Jesus as that body and blood was sacrificed at Calvary in Jerusalem circa 33AD and offered to us as food at the Last Supper.
Likewise, the Mass is not just a remembrance of Calvary, but IS Calvary as the historic crucifixion of the Lord echoes across time.
At the Mass and the Liturgy of the Euchararist we enter in the Holy ground of Calvary and are present on the Sacred ground of Calvary. The Mass is not a re-enactment of Calvary. The Mass IS Calvary. Calvary is an event that is present for us eternally for as long as there is time, and the Body and the Blood of Christ sacrificed at Calvary likewise is eternally present for us.
In Catholicism there is the distinguishing between ordinary time that we experience in our day to day lives, and extraordinary time. The Euchrarist takes place in extraordinary time.
In normal experience, time is perceived as an absolute, a one-way progression from irretrievable past to future potential with life lived in the ever progressing moment of the Present. In the extraordinary time of the Eucharist, time is not absolute, but relative to absolute axis of the Cross of our Lord.