Sacrifice and Catholic teaching

[mikeangel]

You are forgetting, that I pointed out, that since I was in preschool, that I was taught that it was Jesus' very blood, not a symbol. Bloodless-and Drink the blood. You, and all the current Catholics looking at this thread on here, will never see that.
I debate some atheist that I know, on why God exist, and how it is impossible for there not to be a God, and how we could not have created something from nothing, or we came from blind chance. And how God proved himself over and over in the Bible, by predicting things to come, and they come to pass 100% of the time. To me irrefutable proof. To them, foolishness and superstition. There is no way to convince them. The same here. I realize, that even with honest point blank observations an questions, you will do nothing but quote Catholioc doctrine over, and over, and over. While the Bible itself, refutes what you say. "Add nothing to, nor take away from"

So where will this end up? Somewhere I pray for every day. I believe Satan has mucked things up so bad, that it will take God himself to straighten it out. And the more a person, or a church, claims to be the best, most correct, most righteous etc, etc, , the more dung God will throw in your face at Judgement. And before, when he takes action on his day, he will take his remnant, and it will be painfully obvious, who served God, and who didn't. That is what I pray for every day. Peace

 

[SolomonVII]

You are forgetting, that I pointed out, that since I was in preschool, that I was taught that it was Jesus' very blood, not a symbol. Bloodless-and Drink the blood. You, and all the current Catholics looking at this thread on here, will never see that.
I debate some atheist that I know, on why God exist, and how it is impossible for there not to be a God, and how we could not have created something from nothing, or we came from blind chance. And how God proved himself over and over in the Bible, by predicting things to come, and they come to pass 100% of the time. To me irrefutable proof. To them, foolishness and superstition. There is no way to convince them. The same here. I realize, that even with honest point blank observations an questions, you will do nothing but quote Catholioc doctrine over, and over, and over. While the Bible itself, refutes what you say. "Add nothing to, nor take away from"

So where will this end up? Somewhere I pray for every day. I believe Satan has mucked things up so bad, that it will take God himself to straighten it out. And the more a person, or a church, claims to be the best, most correct, most righteous etc, etc, , the more dung God will throw in your face at Judgement. And before, when he takes action on his day, he will take his remnant, and it will be painfully obvious, who served God, and who didn't. That is what I pray for every day. Peace

I am pretty sure that every Catholic here recognizes that the Eucharist is not a symbol. Some of us may believe that the Host is literally Gods Body and Blood with the same conviction that they believe in gravity, and some of us may be totally absent in that kind of faith, but since preschool, pretty much every Catholic knows that that is what the teaching is, whether or not they believe in it.
Most Catholics here are very comfortable that the Bible supports their understanding of the Sacrament. Even if the writing style of explanations from the turn of the last century are a little archaic to our ears to, and the Aristotelian logic of a Thomistic dogma of transubstantion is even more obscure than that, most Catholics who listened to the teachings of their preschool catechism classes, and then go on to read the Bible passages will go "ah yes, that teaching comes from the bible!"

 

[Arsenios]

"Holy Cow, what a paragraph!"

It is because of Latin Catholics like this one
that it is with great HOPE
that we pray for our RC brothers and sisters
and for their Communion...

Saturation in the Holy Spirit is a Good thing...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Spiritual Morsels
We all want progress...
But...
If you're on the wrong road...
Progress means doing an about-turn
And...
Walking back to the right road;
In that case,
The man who turns back soonest
Is...
The most progressive.

C. S. Lewis

Totally off topic, granted, but not a bad offering on a New Year's Eve...
Tonight we do Great Vespers with Litia and Artoklasia, followed by the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil at midnight...

Because so many are out doing foolish and carnal things on New Year's Eve...

But I say: Better the Divine Liturgy now than a Funeral Service later!

May God's Blessings find you all well in your service to our Lord Jesus for the next year!

Arsenios

 

[Mike Alexander]

Question: "What is transubstantiation?"

Answer: Transubstantiation is a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines this doctrine in section 1376:

"The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: ‘Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation.’"

Is this a true statement or not, any RC can answer this question

Do you find anything objectionable. If you do, please let us know. Thanks

 

[mikeangel]

I am pretty sure that every Catholic here recognizes that the Eucharist is not a symbol. Some of us may believe that the Host is literally Gods Body and Blood with the same conviction that they believe in gravity, and some of us may be totally absent in that kind of faith, but since preschool, pretty much every Catholic knows that that is what the teaching is, whether or not they believe in it.
Most Catholics here are very comfortable that the Bible supports their understanding of the Sacrament. Even if the writing style of explanations from the turn of the last century are a little archaic to our ears to, and the Aristotelian logic of a Thomistic dogma of transubstantion is even more obscure than that, most Catholics who listened to the teachings of their preschool catechism classes, and then go on to read the Bible passages will go "ah yes, that teaching comes from the bible!"

I was never taught, that I was witnessing and participating in the Crucifixion of Christ, in catechism. I was not taught, that even though Hebrews states that it was a "once and forever" sacrifice, that their Encyclopedia would state that it was "in itself a real sacrifice".

Happy New Year. In my humble opinion, I would fill it with works of charity, and the things that God DID outline in the bible that he wanted, instead of Rituals that so called make you superior. Like the sheep and the goats taught. Or the good samaritan. Or the foolish rich man. God rewards for mercy, not ritual works.

And you Catholic cannon thumpers,who say you are the only ones that have the real truth and are going to make it, some of your rituals and customs, are against the gospel.

A few examples-

I was a Knight of Columbus. for 25+ years. And we held initiations from time to time.
If you are a K of C, you will know EXACTLY what I am talking about.
I will only talk about the things said before I had to take a vow of secrecy, which in itself is wrong.
I was led in, blindfolded, and told that if I wanted to leave, instead of finishing the degree, that I could, but I would be to them a Stranger.
Most important out of Jesus' mouth, was to love my brother(neighbor) as myself. Not to consider them a stranger.
Also, if masons are criticized by the RCC for having secret rituals, why do They have them, and vows to support them?

Another one was good Friday. At the beginning of the service, the priest walks in and holds a cross up, and says, "This is the cross, on which hung, the savior of the world" And everyone replys,"Thanks be to God". He does this a few more times. And then at a certain point, everyone processes up, kneels to it, and kisses it. There is only one problem with that. Jesus never hung on it.
I know that there are supposedly relics that came from the original cross. No proof, just someone said they had it. But this cross came from the local hardware store and was made into one and I know the guy who did it(well I knew him, hes passed now).

So it, and the other things professed not in scripture, I have to ask myself,Why? And how does this advance the message and salvation of the good news?

So, you cannon thumpers, will undoubtedly link some Catholic sources,or quote them, on why this is true and proper worship, and how you are not venerating/worshiping a lie.

Its like a case around here. The woman got up in the night, got a shotgun, and blew him away in his sleep. A very well known lawyer took the case pro bono, and through clever arguments and reasonings, got her off. Now he gets all the expensive cases he wants. She still murdered him. That's the case here. You will depend on what is told you, instead of what is obvious truth. Like I did for 45 years.

Its getting late in the world. And weather it is tomorrow, next week, next year, it is getting close. And Like the prophet said "Prepare to meet your God". Peace and love to all.

 

[SolomonVII]

....

And you Catholic cannon thumpers,who say you are the only ones that have the real truth and are going to make it, some of your rituals and customs, are against the gospel.

.....

Okay, this is where you lost me.
Respectful conversation, or nothing at all. Life is too short to be subjected to this.

 

[Arsenios]

Okay, this is where you lost me.
Respectful conversation, or nothing at all. Life is too short to be subjected to this.

Calling you a "Catholic canon thumper" is over the line without question...

But he does have such a great sense of sadness in his soul, don't you think?

I can forgive him such a small transgression...

He is not some triumphal bully as so many can become...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Do you find anything objectionable. If you do, please let us know. Thanks

Since you believe in trans-substantiation, what would you find wrong with CON-substantiation?
TRANS- seems to imply that the elements change from one into [trans- = across] the other, eg from bread to Body, while CON- would seem to imply that both are present in each other, just as Christ was both God and man in one Hypostasis...

Arsenios

 

[Mike Alexander]

Since you believe in trans-substantiation, what would you find wrong with CON-substantiation?
TRANS- seems to imply that the elements change from one into [trans- = across] the other, eg from bread to Body, while CON- would seem to imply that both are present in each other, just as Christ was both God and man in one Hypostasis...

Arsenios

Nestorius would certainly go for consunstantiation.

 

[Mike Alexander]

imply that both are present in each other,

If Christ said the IS also was bread, I would be with you.

 

[mikeangel]

Okay, this is where you lost me.
Respectful conversation, or nothing at all. Life is too short to be subjected to this.

So sensative. I know to be more gentle with the truth, with you next time. Sorry.

 

[mikeangel]

Ill rephrase that.
" You Catholics, who believe in the strict interpretation, of "outside the church, there is no salvation" otherwise known as "eens", to mean that only Catholics are going to heaven.." Insert that up there, instead of Cannon thumpers. Peace

 

[SolomonVII]

Calling you a "Catholic canon thumper" is over the line without question...

But he does have such a great sense of sadness in his soul, don't you think?

I can forgive him such a small transgression...

He is not some triumphal bully as so many can become...

Arsenios

I am one of those who has become a believer in the definition of insanity as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

People usually have developed signals to let me know that they have had enough of the discussion and that the points I am raising are causing them some pain and distress.

Experience has taught me that that is the time to read the signs and bow out of any further discussions with them. The alternative is going down a wormhole that never ends well.

It is not really a question of forgiveness. It is of very, very little concern to me how other Christians view Catholicism. People are free to make up their own minds, and I am perfectly happy with non-Catholics loving God in a way that feels right for them.

It is a question of walking out of the ring before there is any real damage done.

 

[Arsenios]

I am one of those who has become a believe in the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

People usually have developed signals to let me know that they have had enough of the discussion and that the points I am raising are causing them some pain and distress.

Experience has taught me that that is the time to read the signs and bow out of any further discussions with them. The alternative is going down a wormhole that never ends well.

It is not really a question of forgiveness. It is of very, very little concern to me how other Christians view Catholicism. People are free to make up their own minds, and I am perfectly happy with non-Catholics loving God in a way that feels right for them.

It is a question of walking out of the ring before there is any real damage done.

Hard to argue against your decision...

i like your poise...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

If Christ said the IS also was bread, I would be with you.

The IS of the bread and wine is a given, and did not need to be said... They were at table, after all, and He took the bread, gave thanks, and broke it... Likewise the wine... So Scripture records that it is bread and wine, AND is the Body and Blood when Christ takes it, gives thanks and breaks it... That indicates that the Gifts are both substances... bread and Body, wine and Blood... The bread and wine did not have to be taken and given thanks for and broken in order to be the bread and wine that they already are...

Any-hoots - I just thought you might have a more definite answer

Thank-you...

Arsenios

 

[Mike Alexander]

. So Scripture records that it is bread and wine,

Scripture records he took bread and took the chalice

That indicates that the Gifts are both substances... bread and Body, wine and Blood..

It indicates He took something and said that It IS something else.

Any-hoots - I just thought you might have a more definite answer

If you were expecting conjecture from me just just like you did, I guess I did disappoint. Hoot Hoot

 

[mikeangel]

I am one of those who has become a believer in the definition of insanity as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

People usually have developed signals to let me know that they have had enough of the discussion and that the points I am raising are causing them some pain and distress.

Experience has taught me that that is the time to read the signs and bow out of any further discussions with them. The alternative is going down a wormhole that never ends well.

It is not really a question of forgiveness. It is of very, very little concern to me how other Christians view Catholicism. People are free to make up their own minds, and I am perfectly happy with non-Catholics loving God in a way that feels right for them.

It is a question of walking out of the ring before there is any real damage done.

With Scripture, the Word, telling me-In Hebrews 10
16“This is the new covenant I will make
with my people on that day,10:16a Greek after those days. says the Lord:
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”10:16b Jer 31:33a.

17Then he says,

“I will never again remember
their sins and lawless deeds.”10:17 Jer 31:34b.

18And when sins have been forgiven, there is NO NEED TO OFFER ANY MORE SACRIFICES."

I am not afraid of your "damage"

Those who despite point blank obvious contradictions, refuse to aknowledge the truth, will answer to God himself. You base your beliefs in the hands of men. Mine is in the Lord my God. See you at the gate. Hopefully you are a lamb, not a goat. Peace

 

[Arsenios]

Scripture records he took bread and took the chalice
He took something and said that It IS ... something else.

And Christ IS BOTH materiate and immateriate...
So that materiate, something, is immateriate, something else...
And bread blessed and broken IS His Body...
The IS goes both foreward and backward in the sentence structure...

Hoot Hoot

Any hoots'll do!

Arsenios