Sabbath should not be discussed in SDA specific forums

[Monk Brendan]

Which means, I am no Roman Catholic that takes the word of popes and the myths of RC tradition for the infallible only and lasting Word of God.

We already knew that!

 

[Monk Brendan]

It speaks of the great earthquake and the descending of the angel and the opening of the grave AT THE TIME OF the Resurrection. It states, “In the end of the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the First Day of the week”. It does not state, “After the Sabbath, dawn / before sunrise ON the First Day of the week.” Recent translations though, do read like that. They are FAKES.

A question for you. Please explain how, if the Sabbath runs from sunset to sunset, how they could be walking to the tomb at the end of the Sabbath--breaking the Sabbath--to anoint the Body of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ--another breaking of the Sabbath, and God sent an angel down to open the tomb on the Sabbath? If the dawn is breaking, doesn't that mean that (according to you) the Sabbath is only half over?

Don't get me wrong. I firmly believe that the day starts with sunset. I am just confused over the timing. However, Matt 28:1 states (KJV) In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Here, all of a sudden, the Sabbath is ending at sun rise, and not sunset. How?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

how they could be walking to the tomb … to anoint the Body of our Lord

In Matthew 28:1 nobody “is walking to the tomb”.

There is only a “setting out TO go see the tomb when immediately [kai idou] a great earthquake occurred”, and nothing came of the two Marys' INTENTION “to go and have a look [theohrehsai] at the tomb”. This fact is further affirmed by Mary Magdalene's individual undertaking, who, as soon as the calamities cause by the “great” earthquake mentioned by Matthew, might have allowed her to go to the tomb, “comes, sees the stone away from the tomb, and runs back” from where she came, when it was after the Sabbath and “being yet early of dark” [prohї skotias eti ousehs], or “dusk” after sunset, by this time now, clearly “ON the First Day of the week” [tehi miai tohn sabbatohn], John 20:1.

In John 20:1 Mary runs back to Peter and John, to whom she must have fled from her own house because of the “earthquake late on the Sabbath mid afternoon”. Her house could have been destroyed for all that we know.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

walking to the tomb … to anoint the Body of our Lord.

In Matthew 28:1-4 nobody is <<walking to the tomb to anoint the Body of our Lord>>.
Luke’s Gospel (1:10) tells that the larger group of women arrived at the tomb, “On the First Day of the week, carrying their spices, prepared and ready”. But it was not Matthew’s time on the Sabbath, nor John’s time, “dusk on the First Day”. Luke’s time is several hours later in the night, in fact according to Luke it was the “deepest morning of night” [orthrou batheohs] just after midnight, “on the First Day of the week”. So the women “found” [heuron], as Mary must have informed them, “the stone rolled away, and they entered in”, obviously, to anoint the body with their prepared spices which they brought with them, “but, found not the body of the Lord Jesus!”

Therefore there is no “walking to the tomb to anoint the Body of our Lord” in Matthew 28:1 either.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

God sent an angel down to open the tomb on the Sabbath?

Exactly! Which act of God was one of “all the works of God”, which “God on the day The Seventh Day, Sabbath of the LORD GOD, finished”, "making the Sabbath".
That God sent an angel down to open the tomb on the Sabbath was from eternity planned in the Council of the Almighty, an angel that contributed to the truth of Jesus’ declaration after his Resurrection, “How that it BEHOVED (honoured) the Christ that all things written in the Law and in the Prophets and in the Psalms concerning Me”, the Christ of God, “must be fulfilled”.


Don’t clutch at petty things like straws that never possibly could indicate Jesus’ Resurrection was on Sunday morning. One just sinks further and further into the quicksand of blunders and lies.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

walking to the tomb at the end of the Sabbath--breaking the Sabbath--to anoint the Body of our Lord, --another breaking of the Sabbath

There is no <<breaking of the Sabbath>> in Matthew 28:1-4.

How would <<walking on the Sabbath>> be <<breaking of the Sabbath>>? You explain! With Scripture!

And the women simply did not <<anoint the Body of our Lord>> on the Sabbath. You place the Scripture which says that the Marys anointed the Body of our Lord! There is nowhere something like it mentioned or just suggested. It’s pure surmising.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Matt 28:1 states (KJV) In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
Here, all of a sudden, the Sabbath is ending at sun rise, and not sunset. How?

You are confusing "as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week", with the dawn of the morning.

Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament
Now late on the sabbath as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week (opse de sabbatwn, th epipwskoush eiί mian sabbatwn). This careful chronological statement according to Jewish days clearly means that before the sabbath was over, that is before six P.M., this visit by the women was made "to see the sepulchre" (qeorhsai ton tapon). They had seen the place of burial on Friday afternoon (Mark 15:47; Matthew 27:61; Luke 23:55). They had rested on the sabbath after preparing spices and ointments for the body of Jesus (Luke 23:56), a sabbath of unutterable sorrow and woe. They will buy other spices after sundown when the new day has dawned and the sabbath is over (Mark 16:1). Both Matthew here and Luke (Luke 23:54) use dawn (epipwskw) for the dawning of the twenty-four hour-day at sunset, not of the dawning of the twelve-hour day at sunrise. The Aramaic used the verb for dawn in both senses. The so-called Gospel of Peter has epipwskw in the same sense as Matthew and Luke as does a late papyrus. Apparently the Jewish sense of "dawn" is here expressed by this Greek verb. Allen thinks that Matthew misunderstands Mark at this point, but clearly Mark is speaking of sunrise and Matthew of sunset.

Robertson of course is wrong that the two women accomplished their intention “to see the tomb”.

The Greek strictly literally supplies the time,

“late in / late on” [opse];

“in / on the Sabbath / Sabbaths / Sabbath’s-time” [sabbatohn];

“in the” [tehi]

“mid / overhead / inclining (declining)” [epi-]

“sun / light / daylight / day” [-phohs-]

“being” [-k-ousehi]

“towards / before / unto” [eis + Accusative]

“The First (Day Ellipsis) of the week” [Mian (Accusative) sabbatohn]

 

[Hank77]

from where she came, when it was after the Sabbath and “being yet early of dark” [prohї skotias eti ousehs], or “dusk” after sunset, by this time now, clearly “ON the First Day of the week” [tehi miai tohn sabbatohn], John 20:1.

Are you using an interlinear or did you attempt to translate this verse on your own?
I have looked at three different interlinears and all three say that 'early' is an adverb and 'still/yet' is an adverb. That being the case neither one can be modifying 'dark'.
So when it says that Mary came early/morning it is not saying 'early dark/dusk.'

G4404 - prōï

1. in the morning, early
   
   
2. the fourth watch of the night, from 3 o'clock in the morning until 6 o'clock approximately
   

 

[Hank77]

Luke’s Gospel (1:10) tells that the larger group of women arrived at the tomb, “On the First Day of the week, carrying their spices, prepared and ready”. But it was not Matthew’s time on the Sabbath, nor John’s time, “dusk on the First Day”. Luke’s time is several hours later in the night, in fact according to Luke it was the “deepest morning of night” [orthrou batheohs] just after midnight, “on the First Day of the week”.

I think you must mean Luke 24:1.
IF Luke is saying, which he didn't, that it was just after midnight on the first day, then it was the 8th day, Sunday. It was the 8th day for several hours before midnight.

Luke says it was very early (Adjective) morning.

G3722 - orthros

1. daybreak, dawn
   
   
2. at early dawn, at daybreak, early in the morning
   

G901 - bathys
1. deep
βαθύς bathýs, bath-oos'; from the base of G939; profound (as going down), literally or figuratively:—deep, very early.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Are you using an interlinear or did you attempt to translate this verse on your own?
I have looked at three different interlinears and all three say that 'early' is an adverb and 'still/yet' is an adverb. That being the case neither one can be modifying 'dark'.
So when it says that Mary came early/morning it is not saying 'early dark/dusk.'

"early" in John 20:1 is an Adjective, or Adjectival Noun, "early (part) of (the) dark / darkness" [skotias], a Possessive Noun.

The whole phrase, “early of dark still being” is Adverbial phrase of time, but is wrongly given a meaning and the attributes of a non-existing substantive, the sunrise or daylight.

http://www.biblestudents.co.za/docs/John20v12earlyofnightorearlyofmorning.pdf

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

So when it says that Mary came early/morning it is not saying 'early dark/dusk.'

Sure! Just the same, when it says "Mary comes early dark/dusk" it is not saying <<early/morning>>. In John 20:1 it is not saying <<Mary came early/morning>>, but "Mary comes early dark/dusk".

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

G4404 - prōï

1. in the morning, early
   
   
2. the fourth watch of the night, from 3 o'clock in the morning until 6 o'clock approximately

Predominantly like in any language ‘early’ is ‘the morning’. But not exclusively the forenoon or before sunset ‘early’. It can be “very early in the morning before sunrise”, ‘lian prohï anateilantos hehliou”, Mark 16:2; or it can be “deepest of night morning” just after midnight, “orthrou batheohs”, Luke 24:1

John here in 20:1 refers to the Bible-day, which starts sunset and the ”early-of-dark-yet-being”, ‘prohï skotiaseti ousehs’ directly after sunset—NOT just ~dark,-yet-being~ (‘skotias, eti ousehs’), but “early of dark still being” - ‘prohï skotias eti ousehs’.

Mary Magdalene in John 20:1,2 does not “~visit the tomb~”; she “SEES THE STONE away from the tomb”. This observation of Mary starts the ‘chain-reaction’ afterwards of eight more visits to the tomb in that same night “on the First Day of the week”.

Opse consistently means nothing but “late” – also in this case. Mark 13:35, “The master (may) come late (in day) – opse, (very late) against midnight (accusative) – mesonuktion, at cockcrow –alektorofohnias (Genitive – while very early after midnight), or, (any time) early (in the day) – prohi. Nothing at all necessitates the idea that opse should mean “evening”. Nothing also necessitates the idea that every time description in this verse should indicate a specific part of the night. It only would be natural and common sense that the Master could come any time of the whole day, night and day. As a matter of fact, opse should stand in the chiasm contained in this verse for the opposite of the duration of day after midnight till midday. The day in the form construction of this verse extends from midday till midnight – opse and mesonuktion – over against the day’s continuation from midnight till midday – alektorofohnias and prohi. Opse thus indicates the end of day. (This is no case of a noon to noon reckoning of the day. The chiasmus is simply used as a literary form without any ulterior implications.) Cf. Par. 5.3.1.3.1. This meaning emphasises the Master’s warning to his labourers not to get slack – obviously when it gets late – but to be zealous and watch throughout the working day. Christ tells of the time of judgement in the end of days when “the Master will come”. He begins by referring to the end of the day as such as a possible time for the coming of the Master, and ends with the early day to allow for any other possible time for his coming. Christ’s coming could be near – “early”, or “after a long while” – “late”. (Follet Classic Greek Dictionary)

About ‘opse’ in Mark 13:35 …

The Biblicist said: ↑

Barnes - At even, or at midnight or, at etc.: This refers to the four divisions into which the Jews divided the night.

In short, ‘opse’ in Mark 13:35 … ~At even, or at midnight~
The Biblicist said: ↑

A..T. Robertson - The four watches of the night are named here: evening (οψε), midnight (μεσονυκτιον), [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]-crowing (αλεκτοροφωνιας), morning (πρω).

In short, ‘opse’ in Mark 13:35 … ~evening (οψε), midnight (μεσονυκτιον)~
The Biblicist said: ↑

JFB - — an allusion to the four Roman watches of the night.

In short, ‘opse’ in Mark 13:35 … No comment; left hanging in the air.
The Biblicist said: ↑

John Gill - at even, or at midnight, or at the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crowing, or in the morning. This is agreeably to the division of the night among the Jews, who speak of the first watch, the middle of the night, the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crowing, and morning, as distinct from each other. The three first of these we have in one passage

In short, ‘opse’ in Mark 13:35 … ~at even, or at midnight~
The Biblicist said: ↑

John MacArthur - The normal expressions designating the four three-hour watches of the night from 6:00 p.m. to 6 a.m. Their names identify the ends of the three-hour periods rather than the periods beginnigs.

In short, ‘opse’ in Mark 13:35 … ~…watches of the night from 6:00 p.m. to 6 a.m. Their names identify the ends of the three-hour periods rather than the periods beginnigs.~
The Biblicist said: ↑

I could have gone on and on listing commentaries, Biblical background authors who all say the very same thing. In fact, it is very very difficult to find any New Testament scholar that says otherwise.

In short, ‘opse’ in Mark 13:35 … ~…authors who all say the very same thing~ …‘LATE in day’!
…and show the same shortcoming, viz., that they all limit the period of time of the four designations to night-time FOR NO REASON AT ALL (than perhaps create a precedent for ‘opse’ in Matthew 28:1 to mean ‘after the Sabbath’ and not properly “ON / IN Sabbath Day-time”).

The weight of scholarship in the referred posts are against your opinion, Biblicist.
Here it is again, not what I say, but what your, scholars had to say,

Barnes - ‘opse’ in Mark 13:35 … ~At even, or at midnight~
The Biblicist said: ↑

A..T. Robertson - (οψε), midnight (μεσονυκτιον), [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]-crowing (αλεκτοροφωνιας), morning (πρω).
‘opse’ in Mark 13:35 … ~evening (οψε), midnight (μεσονυκτιον)~

JFB - ‘opse’ in Mark 13:35 …

John Gill - ‘opse’ in Mark 13:35 … ~at even, or at midnight~

John MacArthur - ‘opse’ in Mark 13:35 … ~…watches of the night from 6:00 p.m. to 6 a.m. Their names identify the ends of the three-hour periods rather than the periods beginnigs.~

Now I, GE, could have gone on and on listing commentaries, Biblical background authors who all say the very same thing. In fact, it is very very difficult to find any New Testament scholar that says otherwise, ~authors who all say the very same thing~ ‘opse’ in Mark 13:35 …‘LATE in day’!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I think you must mean Luke 24:1.
IF Luke is saying, which he didn't, that it was just after midnight on the first day, then it was the 8th day, Sunday. It was the 8th day for several hours before midnight.

Luke says it was very early (Adjective) morning.

G3722 - orthros

1. daybreak, dawn
   
   
2. at early dawn, at daybreak, early in the morning

G901 - bathys
1. deep
βαθύς bathýs, bath-oos'; from the base of G939; profound (as going down), literally or figuratively:—deep, very early.

Orthros and bathus belong together because together they mean what they mean which is something else than when separated ARTFULLY. Who knows for what... for nothing than to create Sunday for Christian worship.

Every incidence of 'orthrou batheohs' in LXX and NT indicates the "earliest / deepest of morning" naturally just after midnight.

What other meaning would you like to give it?
Then give examples of instances!

<<IF Luke is saying, which he didn't, that it was just after midnight on the first day>>

No <IF>! Luke is saying that it was <<just after midnight on the first day>>. Nothing else. And everyone accepted the fact until confronted with the implications of the fact, start their wits gone, and resorts to magic stunts to redeem their dear Sunday <<8th day>> worship.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I think you must mean Luke 24:1.

Thanks. Typo Luke 1:10 should have been Luke 24:10 (not typo <<24:1>>).
All of us are so identical... sometimes.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

To ask a silly question, since when is Pentecost in winter? Pentecost is almost always in late spring/early summer. Why would a WINTER harvest's first fruits be offered in late spring?

I am not trying to put you down. I am just pointing out that the logic of your interpretation is flawed.

Who is talking of <<late spring>>?

If the logic of my interpretation is flawed, then the Jews’ and Israelites’ has always been flawed.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Gerhard Ebersoehn said: ↑
Irrelevant, bad history. Therefore useless as far as what I said, is concerned, which is the status quo 2016, “Sunday is Roman idolatry rampant throughout Christianity.”

Excuse me? Why would St. Thomas Christians be irrelevant? India has an apostolic tradition longer than the traditions of your church (whatever it may be). There are Christians in India that have recorded family history that goes back to the first Christians that St. Thomas converted when he arrived.

See what I mean.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Who is talking of <<late spring>>?

If the logic of my interpretation is flawed, then the Jews’ and Israelites’ has always been flawed.

There is a common belief among almost all Christians and Jews that I know that Pentecost is 50 days after Passover. To quote Wikipedia, The Passover begins on the 15th day of the month of Nisan, which typically falls in March or April of the Gregorian calendar. Passover is a spring festival, so the 15th day of Nisan typically begins on the night of a full moon after the northern vernal equinox.

That makes it spring. Pentecost is 50 days later, which means that it is late spring. So how is there a WINTER HARVEST in there at all?

Unless--Do you live in the Southern Hemisphere?

 

[Monk Brendan]

Luke’s Gospel (1:10) tells that the larger group of women arrived at the tomb, “On the First Day of the week, carrying their spices, prepared and ready”. But it was not Matthew’s time on the Sabbath, nor John’s time, “dusk on the First Day”. Luke’s time is several hours later in the night, in fact according to Luke it was the “deepest morning of night” [orthrou batheohs] just after midnight, “on the First Day of the week”. So the women “found” [heuron], as Mary must have informed them, “the stone rolled away, and they entered in”, obviously, to anoint the body with their prepared spices which they brought with them, “but, found not the body of the Lord Jesus!”

Don't try to throw dust in my face with phonetic misspelling of Greek. My superior is a Greek scholar, and (while I speak none) he can read it in the original.

I quote from the KJV, so that there will be no argument from most Protestants.

Luke 1:10 says, "And the whole multitude of the people were praying without at the time of incense." So you obviously have made a mistake there. Also, my superior tells me that your phonetic spellings are lacking (i.e. misspelled.)

Now, let's be consistent about the time of day. Matthew, Luke and John are in agreement that it was early in the morning on the FIRST day of the week. (Sunday). If your Greek isn't up to it, then I suggest you get your nose out of the Strong's Concordance, and learn to speak, read and write Greek, both puristic and modern.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I don't agree that the omer should be lifted up on the 16th day every year, but on the day after the first 7th day Sabbath following the Passover sacrifice, which is always the 8th day.


Lev 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:

Lev 23:16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.

It is not written, <<the omer should be lifted up on the day after the first 7th day Sabbath following the Passover sacrifice...>>

The lifting up of the omer is not to wave it before the LORD.


On the 14th the people reaped and collected and strung together and lifted up, and carried the first sheaf from the land or field and "brought" it to the priest who “accepted” it at the “store room” = “court of rest” = “place of safe-keeping” = “sanctuary”. The gleanings were “left” for the poor to collect and do as the landowners did with their sheaves.


So on the 14th before sunset everybody’s sheaf was entrusted with the priest for the following day, the 15th and “the sabbath” or “rest-day” of the passover;


whereafter, on the 16th day of the First Month, “the priest shall wave it before the LORD”.


You <<don't agree that the omer should be lifted up on the 16th day every year>>? Well, according to the Bible the sheaf was waved on the 16th, <<the day after the first day of Unleavened Bread>> “on the fifteenth day of the First Month”.


Your <interpretation> it’s <<on the day after the first 7th day Sabbath following the Passover sacrifice>>, is your interpretation for sure!


In Joshua 5:11 we see no omer lifted up whatsoever. On the contrary, we see “they did eat of the old corn on the day after the passover (the 14th “when they killed the passover”).


Meaning they ate on the 15th, “the sabbath”. On the same day of the year Israel had left Egypt, they had entered Canaan. They ate the passover before they left; they ate the passover as soon as they entered.


Then on the sixteenth day of the month they began and counted the sixteenth day, day one of the fifty days to Shavuot.


Still, I haven’t seen or heard of an eighth day or why there has to be one.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Luke 1:10 says, "And the whole multitude of the people were praying without at the time of incense." So you obviously have made a mistake there.

Straining at a gnat ... it's YOUR misquote of MY typo. See my post #134