Sabbath should not be discussed in SDA specific forums

[Steve Petersen]

Question........
how can you claim to be a Christian and NOT believe in the Trinity?

I would encourage you to read Lost Christianities by Bart Ehrman. You will see that early Christians held a variety of beliefs about the Trinity. The Orthodox (Nicene) version eventually became dominant and so the 'winners' get to define the word 'Christian' since then.

 

[Major1]

I would encourage you to read Lost Christianities by Bart Ehrman. You will see that early Christians held a variety of beliefs about the Trinity. The Orthodox (Nicene) version eventually became dominant and so the 'winners' get to define the word 'Christian' since then.

I understand your thought.

However, with all due respect and I mean that my brother, I must question anyone's faith as A Christian who does not believe in the Trinity, based not on any version, or book or denominational stance.

For me, it is what the Word says to me.

If by "implied truth" (which it is) God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit and all three are co equal, co eternal and are found in Christ bodily, to say then that one does not believe in the Trinity is to say that He is a least rejecting Christ as the Man-God.

That is where I am coming from. I hope you understand my thought as I do yours.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I hope you understand my thought as I do yours.

I do. I grew up Baptist.

 

[masmpg]

Question........
how can you claim to be a Christian and NOT believe in the Trinity?

Even though this is not an important issue, I would like to know your definition of "trinity"?

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Even though this is not an important issue, I would like to know your definition of "trinity"?

I cant speak for Major1, but I would point to the Nicene Creed, that is to say, the CF.com statement of faith.

 

[Major1]

I do. I grew up Baptist.

LOL..........I grew up in the Pentecostal faith and am now a Baptist...Southern that is.

 

[Major1]

Even though this is not an important issue, I would like to know your definition of "trinity"?

With all due respect to you my friend, I can not agree that it is not an important issue. It is essential in the faith of a Christian. Then I can not help but wonder why would you think that my definition would be any different than what is found in the Scriptures.

I have a faith in what the Bible tells me. Having said that, I would also say to you that the Trinity is a concept that is dificult for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain.

The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God. Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different Persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this does not mean the Trinity is not true or that it is not based on the teachings of the Bible.

The Trinity is one God existing in three Persons.

Deuteronomy 6:4 ........

“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one".

1 Corinthians 8:4 .......

"Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.”

Galatians 3:20 ...........

"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one."

1 Timothy 2:5 ..........

" For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God—but there is only one God. That is the biblical doctrine of the Trinity.

IMHO, to reject the Trinity then is in fact rejecting the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ and it is only through Him that we are able to be saved.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Christ as a manifestation of God is called modalism, but in Jewish literature, often Messiah is spoken of in this form.

 

[Major1]

Christ as a manifestation of God is called modalism, but in Jewish literature, often Messiah is spoken of in this form.

Absolutely agreed. Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God. It is a denial of the Trinity.

Thanks for your comments. You show yourself to be grounded in the Word of God!

 

[masmpg]

With all due respect to you my friend, I can not agree that it is not an important issue. It is essential in the faith of a Christian. Then I can not help but wonder why would you think that my definition would be any different than what is found in the Scriptures.

I have a faith in what the Bible tells me. Having said that, I would also say to you that the Trinity is a concept that is dificult for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain.

The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God. Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different Persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this does not mean the Trinity is not true or that it is not based on the teachings of the Bible.

The Trinity is one God existing in three Persons.

Deuteronomy 6:4 ........

“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one".

1 Corinthians 8:4 .......

"Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.”

Galatians 3:20 ...........

"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one."

1 Timothy 2:5 ..........

" For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God—but there is only one God. That is the biblical doctrine of the Trinity.

IMHO, to reject the Trinity then is in fact rejecting the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ and it is only through Him that we are able to be saved.

So are you saying that all three are one physically?
This is the question that makes this issue important.

 

[Major1]

So are you saying that all three are one physically?
This is the question that makes this issue important.

The Bible clearly speaks of: God the Son, God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit. But emphasizes that there is only ONE God.

If we were to use math, it would not be, 1+1+1=3. It would be 1x1x1=1. God is a triune God.

Thus the term: "Tri" meaning three, and "Unity" meaning one, Tri+Unity = Trinity. It is a way of acknowledging what the Bible reveals to us about God, that God is yet three "Persons" who have the same essence of deity.

Some have tried to give human illustrations for the Trinity, such as H2O being water, ice and steam (all different forms, but all are H2O).

Another illustration would be the sun. From it we receive light, heat and radiation. Three distinct aspects, but only one sun.

Personally, I am a son to my mother, a husband to my wife and a father to my children.

No illustration is going to be perfect.

 

[masmpg]

I am FLABBERGASTED over all the opinions on this point which many will admit is a salvation issue. For this reason I will stick with my knowledge of God and His Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit. This is not a salvation issue. This is like explaining where the Holy Spirit is coming from when Jesus was talking to Nicodemus. The divine nature is not something that can be explained, and that is what I have been trying to share.

All we, with our finite human wisdom which God calls foolishness, can do is look at what the bible states about God, who is sitting on the throne, and Jesus said He will be seen on the right hand of God the father. Jesus prayed to His Father not to Himself in John 17. I mean we can go on and on here. All I am reading on here is church creeds and early church fathers opinions. I do know this, I pray to God through Jesus and the Holy Spirit answers my prayers.

 

[Hank77]

<<… His resurrection, which Sunday denotes…>> never!

Using scripture, not just your opinion, would you please tell me why you believe that the resurrection of our Lord occurred on the 7th day Sabbath rather than on the day following the 7th day Sabbath, the day of First Fruits?

 

[Major1]

I am FLABBERGASTED over all the opinions on this point which many will admit is a salvation issue. For this reason I will stick with my knowledge of God and His Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit. This is not a salvation issue. This is like explaining where the Holy Spirit is coming from when Jesus was talking to Nicodemus. The divine nature is not something that can be explained, and that is what I have been trying to share.

All we, with our finite human wisdom which God calls foolishness, can do is look at what the bible states about God, who is sitting on the throne, and Jesus said He will be seen on the right hand of God the father. Jesus prayed to His Father not to Himself in John 17. I mean we can go on and on here. All I am reading on here is church creeds and early church fathers opinions. I do know this, I pray to God through Jesus and the Holy Spirit answers my prayers.

I am sure that you are "flabbergasted" because as a SDA you are being exposed to the Scriptures and not through s SDA filter.

The truth is Yet, when it comes to the doctrine of the Trinity, most Christians are poor in their understanding, poorer in their articulation, and poorest of all in seeing any way in which the doctrine matters in real life.

One needs to understand that God Father initiates salvation.
So then the Son achieves salvation.
Then So the Holy Spirit employs salvation.

Why is the Trinity doctrine so important to historic Christianity?
Because there is no gift of salvation without it!

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Question........
how can you claim to be a Christian and NOT believe in the Trinity?

I don't read in the scripture the concept of the trinity doctrine espoused by a few men gathered at a table in Nicaea.

The scripture tells of a beautiful relationship, as an example to us, of sonship and obedience. The Father begat the Son... not by creation but by extension of Himself. Thats why in the beginning when God said "let us make man in our image" it was the Father speaking to the Son referring to the oneness of their image, their very character. But Christ was clear while He was here and taught us, that He was subservient to the Will of His Father, never the other way around. There is a Heirarchy within the Godhead, not a linear 'all are equal'.

We humanly frame this within our concepts and experience of position and power but with God the Father and Jesus His Son, there is no struggle or strife with them... they are perfect... they and are Love. Their relationship is the pinnacle of what a relationship should be. Jesus didn't say that the woman is equal to the man or the man equal to Christ... the model He taught was patterned after the Divine.

 

[Major1]

I don't read in the scripture the concept of the trinity doctrine espoused by a few men gathered at a table in Nicaea.

The scripture tells of a beautiful relationship, as an example to us, of sonship and obedience. The Father begat the Son... not by creation but by extension of Himself. Thats why in the beginning when God said "let us make man in our image" it was the Father speaking to the Son referring to the oneness of their image, their very character. But Christ was clear while He was here and taught us, that He was subservient to the Will of His Father, never the other way around. There is a Heirarchy within the Godhead, not a linear 'all are equal'.

We humanly frame this within our concepts and experience of position and power but with God the Father and Jesus His Son, there is no struggle or strife with them... they are perfect... they and are Love. Their relationship is the pinnacle of what a relationship should be. Jesus didn't say that the woman is equal to the man or the man equal to Christ... the model He taught was patterned after the Divine.

Surely you are not discounted the Bible doctrine of the Trinity by blaming it on a Catholic council?

In the beginning, God, unlike the gods in other ancient creation stories, did not need to go outside himself to create the universe. Instead, the Word and the Spirit were like his own two hands in fashioning the creation. God created by speaking (the Word) as the Spirit hovered over the chaos. Creation, like regeneration, is a Trinitarian act, with God working by the agency of the Word spoken and the mysterious movement of the Holy Spirit.

You also must be aware of the truth found in Colossians 1:19......
"For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell".

I would encourage you to consider that it is only with a Trinitarian God that love can be an eternal attribute of God. Without a plurality of persons in the Godhead, we would be forced to think that God created humans so that he might show love and know love, thereby making love a created thing (and God a needy deity). But with a biblical understanding of the Trinity we can say that God did not create in order to be loved, but rather, created out of the overflow of the perfect love that had always existed among Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who ever live in perfect and mutual relationship and delight.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Major1... do you even read the posts?? Please show me where I stated that there was not a plurality within the Godhead.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

I would encourage you to read Lost Christianities by Bart Ehrman. You will see that early Christians held a variety of beliefs about the Trinity. The Orthodox (Nicene) version eventually became dominant and so the 'winners' get to define the word 'Christian' since then.

There is no need to read the belligerent vitriol produced by Ehrman, who is one of the more unpleasant figures in contemporary academia. We can instead refer to St. Irenaeus or St. Epiphanius of Salamis, who provide us with veritable encyclopedias of ancient heresies and do so without an ulterior motive.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Surely you are not discounted the Bible doctrine of the Trinity by blaming it on a Catholic council?

Nicea was not specifically Roman Catholic. The Bishop of Rome was not even personally present.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

I don't read in the scripture the concept of the trinity doctrine espoused by a few men gathered at a table in Nicaea.

Fact check: 318 holy saints in opposition to Arius and a handful of supporters.