Romans 4, water baptism?

[Bones49]

Your thoughts as to how we are WATER BAPTIZED into his Death ?

I would say that Paul here is explaining what Baptism is (i.e. the religious act of being immersed in water and brought back up as entrance into the Christian community).
I would say that Paul considers that Baptism is analogous (similar) to Christ's death and resurrection.
When we go down into the water and are immersed, it is like we are dying with Christ - Christ died for our sins, we are dying to our sins - which is expressed in the physical act of baptism - so figuratively speaking we are being baptized into Christ's death.

Being buried with Christ, again it is still figurative, but I think this is the force of imagery. In the Greek, baptism in the strictest sense is immersing something in water and leaving it there. So we could appropriately say, if a ship is sunk, that the ship is baptized. It can mean other things than this, but in the most narrow sense that is what the word means, there are other Greek words that mean things like dipping and sprinkling etc.

So what is the significance of burial. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this, because I'm not sure. The best information that I have heard regarding this, from David Pawson, which I can't fully remember how he expressed it, but something along the lines of finality and closure. When someone dies there is a lot of shock and grief, and until the funeral you kind of remain in that place. But the funeral, the act of burying someone makes the event, the death final. It's like closing the book - you have finished reading, but you when you close the book, it means you are finished the book. The burial, shall we say as it relates to Baptism, is reference that sin is gone, you are buried with Christ, in that your sin remains buried in the waters baptism and that you are now a new creation in Christ Jesus, a slave to righteousness, no longer a slave to sin.

I see that the physical act of baptism is symbolic, but there is actual real spiritual transactions which are happening as you get baptized in obedience to Christ. That is to say that being baptized doesn't necessarily mean anything, unless it is accompanied with faith in God, which is what makes it spiritual obedience. So in that way, I would agree with your thesis, that Paul's emphasis is on the what is happening spiritually, because in many ways, it can be said that that is what is important. However, this can't really be divorced from the physical act of obedience, which is baptism.

 

[Doug Brents]

And when reading Rom 6:3 Or are you IGNORANT , that as many as were BAPTISZED // BAPTISO into Christ Jesus were BAPTIZED // BAPTISO into his Death .

If anyone believes in WATER BAPTISM , how are you WATER BAPTIZED INTO His Death /

Through faith in Jesus' promise that if you are water baptized He will wash away your sins, and you will be resurrected as He was.

nd is verse 4 , Therefore , we were BURIED TOGETHER with Him through this BAPTISMA INTO death , so how does that Happen ??

That happens by the working of the Holy Spirit when we surrender to Jesus, and obey His (seemingly ridiculous) command (just as Naaman thought that Elisha's command was ridiculous, but when he obeyed he was healed).

Your thoughts as to how we are WATER BAPTIZED into his Death ?

It is through the act of being buried (in water) in simulation of His burial in a cave, we are united with His death by the Holy Spirit, and then raised to new life in Him as depicted by our rising out of the water. Yes, it is partially symbolic, but if the "symbol" is not done, then the real event (the action of the Holy Spirit) does not occur.

 

[Dan Perez]

Through faith in Jesus' promise that if you are water baptized He will wash away your sins, and you will be resurrected as He was.

That happens by the working of the Holy Spirit when we surrender to Jesus, and obey His (seemingly ridiculous) command (just as Naaman thought that Elisha's command was ridiculous, but when he obeyed he was healed).

It is through the act of being buried (in water) in simulation of His burial in a cave, we are united with His death by the Holy Spirit, and then raised to new life in Him as depicted by our rising out of the water. Yes, it is partially symbolic, but if the "symbol" is not done, then the real event (the action of the Holy Spirit) does not occur.

BUT in Rom 6:4 the b Greek Text reads , Therefore , we were buried together with with Him through this BAPTISMA INTO DEATH .

That Greek word BAPTISO // BAPTISM is NOTTTTTT the Greek word here !!

The Greek word in Rom 6:4 is the Greek n word BAPTISMA , and check the Greek text and SEE if you have DOUBTS by using BLUE LETTER BIBLE or BIBLE HUB .

Where is that verse where ( being buried in water ) is SIMULATION of His burial in a cave ??

dan p

dan p

 

[Doug Brents]

BUT in Rom 6:4 the b Greek Text reads , Therefore , we were buried together with with Him through this BAPTISMA INTO DEATH .

That Greek word BAPTISO // BAPTISM is NOTTTTTT the Greek word here !!

You are correct, the Greek word is not the VERB form of baptism (to immerse), but is the noun form of baptism (immersion). Same concept (immersion), but different part of speech, noun vs verb.

The Greek word in Rom 6:4 is the Greek n word BAPTISMA , and check the Greek text and SEE if you have DOUBTS by using BLUE LETTER BIBLE or BIBLE HUB .

Where is that verse where ( being buried in water ) is SIMULATION of His burial in a cave ??

Rom 6:4 says that we are buried WITH HIM through baptism (immersion) INTO DEATH. It is in immersion in water that we are joined with Him in death of the flesh, and arise having been resurrected by the Spirit to new life.

 

[Dan Perez]

You are correct, the Greek word is not the VERB form of baptism (to immerse), but is the noun form of baptism (immersion). Same concept (immersion), but different part of speech, noun vs verb.

Rom 6:4 says that we are buried WITH HIM through baptism (immersion) INTO DEATH. It is in immersion in water that we are joined with Him in death of the flesh, and arise having been resurrected by the Spirit to new life.

And you then believe that in Rom 6:4 BAPRISO means water , IMMERSION , and does not mean BAPRISMA , which really means HOLY SPIRIT is IMMERSION ??

The only word that COMES close to immersion is the Greek word BAPTO , which means to DIP .

Paul in Eph 4:5 teaches only ONE // HEIS , BAPTISMA and this Greek word is used used 22 times , from Matthew though 1 Peter 3:21 .

dan p

 

[Doug Brents]

And you then believe that in Rom 6:4 BAPRISO means water , IMMERSION , and does not mean BAPRISMA , which really means HOLY SPIRIT is IMMERSION ??

BAPTISMO does not mean water, and BAPTISMA does not mean the Spirit.
BAPTISMO is a verb that means to immerse, and BAPTISMA is a noun that means immersion; and this immersion can be in anything.

The only word that COMES close to immersion is the Greek word BAPTO , which means to DIP .

Paul in Eph 4:5 teaches only ONE // HEIS , BAPTISMA and this Greek word is used used 22 times , from Matthew though 1 Peter 3:21 .

It doesn't matter how many times it is used, it is still the word for immersion. And NT immersion requires water, because that is what Jesus said in John 3:5. That is what Peter said in 1 Pet 3:21. That is what the Apostles and the early Church taught (see Acts 8:36). And that is the only immersion that man can accomplish as Jesus commanded in Matt 28:19 and Mark 16:16. Yes, the Spirit is the active part in it, because He is the one who is cutting our sin from us (Col 2:11-14), and He is the one uniting us with Jesus' death and resurrection (Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-1), but He does that in water immersion.

 

[Dan Perez]

BAPTISMO does not mean water, and BAPTISMA does not mean the Spirit.
BAPTISMO is a verb that means to immerse, and BAPTISMA is a noun that means immersion; and this immersion can be in anything.

It doesn't matter how many times it is used, it is still the word for immersion. And NT immersion requires water, because that is what Jesus said in John 3:5. That is what Peter said in 1 Pet 3:21. That is what the Apostles and the early Church taught (see Acts 8:36). And that is the only immersion that man can accomplish as Jesus commanded in Matt 28:19 and Mark 16:16. Yes, the Spirit is the active part in it, because He is the one who is cutting our sin from us (Col 2:11-14), and He is the one uniting us with Jesus' death and resurrection (Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-1), but He does that in water immersion.

And I yet to find the Greek word for IMMERSION in the bible , and will welcome where that verse is written !!

And the Greek word for 1 Peter 3:21 which reads , The like figure whereunto BAPTISMA doth now SAVE us !!

#1 ]The word EVEN is not in the Greek text , doth also now save us !!

#2 Notice that ONLY the ( HOLY SPIRIT called the BAPTISMA and NOT // OU is a DISJUNCTIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE and means that water baptism can not save you .

#3 And that ONLY the one BAPTISMA , the HOLY SPIRIT is the only one that can save us !!

dan p

 

[Doug Brents]

And I yet to find the Greek word for IMMERSION in the bible , and will welcome where that verse is written !!

And the Greek word for 1 Peter 3:21 which reads , The like figure whereunto BAPTISMA doth now SAVE us !!

You Just found the Greek word for immersion in Scripture, you just quoted it.

#1 ]The word EVEN is not in the Greek text , doth also now save us !!

Don't know where you get EVEN from, but I don't see it in the NASB either. Not sure what that is supposed to prove.

#2 Notice that ONLY the ( HOLY SPIRIT called the BAPTISMA and NOT // OU is a DISJUNCTIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE and means that water baptism can not save you .

You have this belief so deeply entrenched that you cannot let go of it. BAPTISMA has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit.

#3 And that ONLY the one BAPTISMA , the HOLY SPIRIT is the only one that can save us !!

Only the Holy Spirit can save us? But Jesus saves us. And baptism saves us. And belief saves us. And faith saves us. And.... All these things work together because all of them were written by the same Holy Spirit. We are saved by the actions of the Holy Spirit (Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14) because of the power of Jesus' sacrifice (Rom 5:10) through faith and obedience to the commands the Holy Spirit wrote in the written Word of God (Heb 5:9).

 

[Dan Perez]

You Just found the Greek word for immersion in Scripture, you just quoted it.

Don't know where you get EVEN from, but I don't see it in the NASB either. Not sure what that is supposed to prove.

You have this belief so deeply entrenched that you cannot let go of it. BAPTISMA has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit.

Only the Holy Spirit can save us? But Jesus saves us. And baptism saves us. And belief saves us. And faith saves us. And.... All these things work together because all of them were written by the same Holy Spirit. We are saved by the actions of the Holy Spirit (Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14) because of the power of Jesus' sacrifice (Rom 5:10) through faith and obedience to the commands the Holy Spirit wrote in the written Word of God (Heb 5:9).

Here is the reason the HOLY SPIRIT does a part to do , in Rom 6:4 says , Therefore we were buried together with Him through this BAPTISMA { better check the Greek word used here is NOT THE GREEK WORD BAPTISM )

and also check Eph 4:5 here n it is written , ONE LORD , ONE FAITH , ONE // HEIS BAPTISMA and ONE MEANS JUJST ONE // HEIS and HEIS MEANS ONLY ONE .
Check the Greek text and PROVE WRONG !!

And in Rom 6:4 how can anyone be BAPTIZED into the DEATH ??

Was it by WATER BAPTISM ?

Or was by the BAPTISMA , ho is the HOLY SPIRIT ?

dan p




Rom 6:

 

[Doug Brents]

Here is the reason the HOLY SPIRIT does a part to do , in Rom 6:4 says , Therefore we were buried together with Him through this BAPTISMA { better check the Greek word used here is NOT THE GREEK WORD BAPTISM )

BAPTISM is not a Greek word. It is an English word that was transliterated from the Greek words BAPTISMO (verb) and BAPTISMA (noun).

and also check Eph 4:5 here n it is written , ONE LORD , ONE FAITH , ONE // HEIS BAPTISMA and ONE MEANS JUJST ONE // HEIS and HEIS MEANS ONLY ONE .
Check the Greek text and PROVE WRONG !!

There is no argument here. One means one. Yes, there is one immersion of any significance in the NT Church, and it requires water as indicated by John 3:5, Eph 5:25-27, 1 Pet 3:21, etc.

And in Rom 6:4 how can anyone be BAPTIZED into the DEATH ??

When we are baptized (immersed into water) into Jesus we are united with His death (we die to sin). And because He was resurrected, we also are resurrected.

Was it by WATER BAPTISM ?

Absolutely it is. The Scriptures are very clear that it is through water baptism (immersion) that we are united with Jesus, die to sin with Him, and are resurrected to new life in Him by the Holy Spirit.

Or was by the BAPTISMA , ho is the HOLY SPIRIT ?

The Holy Spirit is active in immersion, but He only takes action during our immersion in water. Matt 28:19 says that the baptism that is important in the NT Church is the baptism that man performs (not something the Spirit does), and man cannot command the Holy Spirit to do anything, so this cannot be "Spirit baptism".

 

[B Griffin]

Good day,

An exegetical question for you if you're willing. I am wrestling with Romans 6 and Paul's reference to baptism in v4. I always approached this text with the idea that Paul was referring to the rite of water baptism. After reading around on this, it seems like there are good reasons for rejecting this. (this is not about paedo/credo baptism)

Just consider these reasons which I found to be rather convincing. Could the same man that wrote,

• "I thank God I baptized none of you but Crispus and Gaius" and
• "Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the Gospel." and
• "circumcision is nothing."

go on to write that by water baptism we are buried into Christ's death (Rom 6)? which I take to be a reference to union with Christ? How could Paul on the one hand show such disinterest in the outward ceremonies of baptism and circumcision and then teach that water baptism represents something as significant as "uniting us to Christ" in Romans 6? Nothing is more important for Paul than union with Christ; I think that is pretty clear. Furthermore, Paul seems quite uninterested in the ritual of water baptism. So....why do we believe that Paul is thinking of water baptism in Romans 6? Isn't it far more likely that Paul is referring here to Spirit baptism as in 1Cor 12:13? That seems to be a more consistent way to understand Romans 6.

Now I understand that all the commentators are against me on this; but why?

In times like these, it is good to consider that the Lord may be at work in your heart to enlighten your understanding. If it is the Lord, and if you find your way to the truth by way of trusting Him, then you not only gain understanding of the subject matter concerning which He is teaching you, but you also become more familiar with the ways in which He works in you to guide you in all truth.

 

[Arctangent]

Good day,

An exegetical question for you if you're willing. I am wrestling with Romans 6 and Paul's reference to baptism in v4. I always approached this text with the idea that Paul was referring to the rite of water baptism. After reading around on this, it seems like there are good reasons for rejecting this. (this is not about paedo/credo baptism)

Just consider these reasons which I found to be rather convincing. Could the same man that wrote,

• "I thank God I baptized none of you but Crispus and Gaius" and
• "Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the Gospel." and
• "circumcision is nothing."

go on to write that by water baptism we are buried into Christ's death (Rom 6)? which I take to be a reference to union with Christ? How could Paul on the one hand show such disinterest in the outward ceremonies of baptism and circumcision and then teach that water baptism represents something as significant as "uniting us to Christ" in Romans 6? Nothing is more important for Paul than union with Christ; I think that is pretty clear. Furthermore, Paul seems quite uninterested in the ritual of water baptism. So....why do we believe that Paul is thinking of water baptism in Romans 6? Isn't it far more likely that Paul is referring here to Spirit baptism as in 1Cor 12:13? That seems to be a more consistent way to understand Romans 6.

Now I understand that all the commentators are against me on this; but why?

Paul is not saying that he has no interest in people being baptized. Rather, he is saying that, with limited exceptions, he is not the one sent to do the baptizing. Paul is "sowing seeds", so to speak, doing the initial evangelization. Others after him will be the ones to baptize.

 

[Dan Perez]

Paul is not saying that he has no interest in people being baptized. Rather, he is saying that, with limited exceptions, he is not the one sent to do the baptizing. Paul is "sowing seeds", so to speak, doing the initial evangelization. Others after him will be the ones to baptize.

And Paul as not SENT to BAPTIZE as 1 Cor 1:17 says , here Paul says For Christ did NOT // OU is a DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE and it MEANS NEVERRRRRRRRRRR sent to Baptize .

Also verse 15 , says LEST // ME is also a DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE , anyone should says that I had BAPTIZED FOR MY NAME .

The disciples could only Baptize by the Father , the Son and of the HOLY SPIRIT in Matt 28:19

And in Acts 19:5 they were BAPTIZED in the NAME OF THE Lord Jesus

Also all should notice that at this time in Acts there was NO WATER // HUDOR BAPTISM at all , because of Acts 1:5 .

dan p